Rusty X Flame angelfish

[yikai]

Oh please.

to say that "suppliers can tell whatever they want" is not throwing a stone at you.

you are supplying philippine fish.

it is true that 90% of philippine fish suppliers list the fishes wrongly.

is it wrong then i would assume? absolutely not.

i have seen your real shepardi and your rusty flame hybrids. there is no difference. i am not saying you are wrong, i am just telling you that there is no way to differentiate these two fishes based on appearance.

i also did not say that shepardis are found where rusty angels are found in.

i don't think you understand what i am saying.

i am saying that there is a chance, a shepardi angel IS a hybrid of the flame and the rusty. which got separated many years ago and are isolated by themselves, which then got classified as a species on it's own.

you come here trying to prove to me how smart you are etc etc.

but yet you have not displayed a single backing towards your story.

tell me then. how do you differentiate the real shepardis from the hybrid flame/rusty? there is no difference! because they are the same!

assume this. years ago rusty and flame angels hybridised in the philippines. due to allopatric speciation, the hybrids landed up in guam where they got isolated. years later, they are described as shepardi angels. but wait, now there are similar looking fish in the philippines that are rusty x flame hybrids!? YES. my point exactly. the are the same.

while it is true that i have no field experience.

i have no phd.

i only have a tank and i only search the books and internet.

yes that is all true.

but right now, you are not presenting me with any information that i don't already know to support your claim to fame. so if you expect me to sit here while you attack me with baseless arguments, then i'm sorry. at this point, you're no better than me.

and until you can show me how your 37 years of diving and a phd can teach me how you differentiate a rusty x flame angel from a shepardi based on appearance, you have just wasted your time and everyone's time.

i know i am wayyy under your league. and you may be better than me. show me then. don't just type things that everyone can type.

[Digiman]

Johan,

I'm curious about one thing. In your stocklist u mentioned shepardi hybrid and shepardi angel.

May i know how u differentiate between the two? Do u have photos to show? Also i assume the shepardi hybrid is a hybrid between flame and shepardi right?

Thanks in advance for your input.

[yikai]

and yeah,

you win.

it's pointless for me to go on anyway.

you win.

you have the 37 years and the phd. i just have my fish tank.

[Johan]

Hi Johan,

It is really nice to see someone who is a collector of marine fishes for our hobby to join our forum.

Your experience and expertise would bring great knowledge and benefit to our forum.

However it is rather sad to see your first post being so hostile.

Lemon is not some bigshot here in singapore, he is a just a hobbyist like anyone of us here in this forum, but a very enthusiastic and passionate one. Indeed true that whatever he said is based on what he read and researched over the net and reference books, but that doesn't mean that he must be wrong about what he said on shepardi angels. In the literature it is written very clearly that Shepardi angels are found only in the western pacific, around mariana and ogasawara. The rusty flames that were caught in philippines are completely identical in appearance but that does not mean it is the same centropyge shepardi from Guam. In fact now there's even a high possiibility that the true shepardi in Guam may not be a valid species but a hybrid itself.

Anyway the report should be out soon and it by then we'll know if the rusty flames from philippines are of any difference from the shepardi in guam. So let's end this topic here as of now.

Well what about this then: in then old days ( 30 years ago) we all learned that Centropyge venusta only occurred around Taiwan.. Hmm. We collected them now by the HUNDREDS at Aparri in the Philippines and now.. yes indeed ship them to Taipei on a weekly basis..

What can books tell me, if I can see things with my one eyes??

[Johan]

Johan,

I'm curious about one thing. In your stocklist u mentioned shepardi hybrid and shepardi angel.

May i know how u differentiate between the two? Do u have photos to show? Also i assume the shepardi hybrid is a hybrid between flame and shepardi right?

Thanks in advance for your input.

Why ask me thing you already know?

[Digiman]

Well what about this then: in then old days ( 30 years ago) we all learned that Centropyge venusta only occurred around Taiwan.. Hmm. We collected them now by the HUNDREDS at Aparri in the Philippines and now.. yes indeed ship them to Taipei on a weekly basis..

What can books tell me, if I can see things with my one eyes??

Exactly. It is highly possible that true shepardi is also found in philippines just that no one knew it until it was collected in recent years. But it is also equally likely that the shepardi in Guam is in fact a hybrid of flame and rusty but was all along thought to be a valid species of its own.

We can go on and argue but what's the point? Until someone do a DNA test we'll never know which is correct. And luckily the tissue samples has been sent and the test i believed has been done and the report should soon be finished and published. So v soon there will be an answer.

[yikai]

that's funny.

you addressed digiman's previous comment and called him henry, and then edited the post.

i know that you are unhappy with, *other things* besides this.

and i'm sorry if i've offended you in my previous posts.

but i still stand my ground that there is no difference between a rusty flame and a shepardi. so i think lets just end the argument here and since you have the 37 years of experience and the PhD, i'll just take your advice and listen.

afterall what do i know. i'm just a 19 year old hobbyist with a fish tank in my living room.

[Digiman]

Why ask me thing you already know?

I'm asking you because i don't know. And i don't know why you feel and think i know the answer and is asking you on purpose.

I'm just curious what is the difference that you have spotted in the fishes that you've collected that allow you to distinguish that they are different and hope you could share with us.

But if you do not wish to reply it is ok.

[Digiman]

And to add,

we've nothing against you and hope you could be more friendly in your response.

In fact we are glad to have you here and as one of our supplier. We as hobbyists have benefited from your shipments. I've seen many new and interesting fishes in your shipment that i've never seen before. Every of your shipment make us v excited as there are so many rare things to find.

So i hope you know we really appreciate your presence here and hope to see more of your shipments in future.

[Digiman]

There's another question i like to ask and hope you can answer.

In philippines where u collect fishes do u see any pintail fairy wrasse(cirrhilabrus cf. lanceolatus) and genicanthus semifasciatus angel?

Pintail fairy wrasse is a fish that i've wanted to get for very long but sadly none has ever came into singapore.

[Johan]

Genicanthus semifasciatus comes from Aparri ,same place as the C. venusta ... more females than males. 35/50 meters depth..

Needs a lot of care when they come in...

Most of them are "juiced" as the majority of divers there use that technique.....

We rather do it in a more animal friendly way. it pays off at the end as the quality is much better and.. they accept food!!

We have plenty Pseudoanthias ventralis ventralis and flavoguttatus ( send some yesterday to Singapore..

[Johan]

that's funny.

you addressed digiman's previous comment and called him henry, and then edited the post.

i know that you are unhappy with, *other things* besides this.

and i'm sorry if i've offended you in my previous posts.

but i still stand my ground that there is no difference between a rusty flame and a shepardi. so i think lets just end the argument here and since you have the 37 years of experience and the PhD, i'll just take your advice and listen.

afterall what do i know. i'm just a 19 year old hobbyist with a fish tank in my living room.

[yikai]

and jackywong please.

stop acting so petty by giving me -1 post.

it's been so long already and if you can't let go then there's something wrong with you.

[Johan]

and jackywong please.

stop acting so petty by giving me -1 post.

it's been so long already and if you can't let go then there's something wrong with you.

One more person here is "wrong" I am feeling at home at last.. finally I found someone equal to me haha..

.

Jacky and Johan AKA the " Wrong Brothers".....

[Digiman]

Genicanthus semifasciatus comes from Aparri ,same place as the C. venusta ... more females than males. 35/50 meters depth..

Needs a lot of care when they come in...

Most of them are "juiced" as the majority of divers there use that technique.....

We rather do it in a more animal friendly way. it pays off at the end as the quality is much better and.. they accept food!!

We have plenty Pseudoanthias ventralis ventralis and flavoguttatus ( send some yesterday to Singapore..

So semifasciatus is not uncommon where u collect venustus angels. So it will be likely next time we get some semifasciatus angels in your shipments too.

It is important to collect fishes proper methods especially for sensitive fishes like semifasciatus. Most that came in last time always die within days due to poor collection and shipping stress.

Your fishes are of very high quality. I have seen your shipment and have bought your fishes and can testify for that.

[Johan]

So semifasciatus is not uncommon where u collect venustus angels. So it will be likely next time we get some semifasciatus angels in your shipments too.

It is important to collect fishes proper methods especially for sensitive fishes like semifasciatus. Most that came in last time always die within days due to poor collection and shipping stress.

Your fishes are of very high quality. I have seen your shipment and have bought your fishes and can testify for that.

Thank you ever so kind. I would like to suggest you to go ASAP to Junkai and Victor for some goodies shipped yesterday .. You might not be to late..

Most semifasciatus are send from manila.. Beside Junakai and Victor I do not know ANY importer in Singapore thaat does not always ask for long term credits and BIG discounts.. no wonder that the S*** fish end up where you are..

Some shippers here send mandarin fish fro US$ 0,60 !! I mean.. there is no profit and only pitiful fish with empty bellies..

Before you start asking... we ONLY deal with Irwana!!

[jackywongto]

and jackywong please.

stop acting so petty by giving me -1 post.

it's been so long already and if you can't let go then there's something wrong with you.

Bro, it will do you some good to ponder why those points were given to you. if you still cannot when the reefers are all saying the same thing about you, then something is wrong with you.

Cheers and happy reefing.

[Digiman]

Thank you ever so kind. I would like to suggest you to go ASAP to Junkai and Victor for some goodies shipped yesterday .. You might not be to late..

Most semifasciatus are send from manila.. Beside Junakai and Victor I do not know ANY importer in Singapore thaat does not always ask for long term credits and BIG discounts.. no wonder that the S*** fish end up where you are..

Some shippers here send mandarin fish fro US$ 0,60 !! I mean.. there is no profit and only pitiful fish with empty bellies..

Before you start asking... we ONLY deal with Irwana!!

Thanks, i'll go down tomorrow to see if there are any ventralis and flavoguttatus left. I would like to try these beautiful anthias once more if they arrive in good condition.

Iwarna is one of my favourite LFS here and i'm glad Iwarna is carrying your supply as i'll get to see more of the rare and interesting stuff from your collections.

Mandarin fish is a fish that i always shake my head when i see them in large numbers in LFS tanks because i know almost all of them are going to die within weeks in captivity.

[yikai]

Bro, it will do you some good to ponder why those points were given to you. if you still cannot when the reefers are all saying the same thing about you, then something is wrong with you.

Cheers and happy reefing.

i know that i always come across as rude and arrogant and a smart alec know it all. it pains everyone here trust me i knowww.

i also know that i ain't exactly the nicest and friendliest reefer here. ok maybe i am the most unfriendly reefer here. and i do a bad job at hiding it.

and i deserve it. i'm not being sarcastic here.

i also know about your secret hate lemon PMs you hold with your friends everyday and how you had an army of lemon haters. back then i would device plans to make you angry and piss everyone off. i was an ignorant and angsty kid then.

while i am still a kid now, i try, now and then, to be nicer and more friendly. but i think i'm still doing a bad job at it. that's why i quit as a moderator and that's why i've abstained from the forum for most parts now and resided in my hybrid thread section where i can post on all the rare fish i want. but sometimes even there, i still manage to offend people.

but really. i'm trying.

so considering you know me so well. you must know that this is very hard for me to say.

and i'm swalllowing my pride and saying a big sorry to you here, and to johan, in public, not in PM.

so, peace.

and sorry.

and i really mean it. i wish to put all our past behind us, if you want to.

[Digiman]

I'm glad lemon initiated an apology.

Let's hope all the unhappiness just now will end here once and for all.

Afterall Johan is a new member and is also one of our valuable supplier of high quality and rare stuff from philippines, so everyone let's officially welcome him to our forum.

[dnsfpl]

+1 for you both, but Johan got to wait til tmr as i can only +1 a day

sharing is caring

cheers everybody

[jackywongto]

i know that i always come across as rude and arrogant and a smart alec know it all. it pains everyone here trust me i knowww.

i also know that i ain't exactly the nicest and friendliest reefer here. ok maybe i am the most unfriendly reefer here. and i do a bad job at hiding it.

and i deserve it. i'm not being sarcastic here.

i also know about your secret hate lemon PMs you hold with your friends everyday and how you had an army of lemon haters. back then i would device plans to make you angry and piss everyone off. i was an ignorant and angsty kid then.

while i am still a kid now, i try, now and then, to be nicer and more friendly. but i think i'm still doing a bad job at it. that's why i quit as a moderator and that's why i've abstained from the forum for most parts now and resided in my hybrid thread section where i can post on all the rare fish i want. but sometimes even there, i still manage to offend people.

but really. i'm trying.

so considering you know me so well. you must know that this is very hard for me to say.

and i'm swalllowing my pride and saying a big sorry to you here, and to johan, in public, not in PM.

so, peace.

and sorry.

and i really mean it. i wish to put all our past behind us, if you want to.

Hey bro, no worries and don't worry about it. I am not offended, hence no apologies required.

We are all here to enjoy reefing.

Cheers and happy reefing.....

Sent from my iPad2 using Tapatalk

[naivete]

Why dont we get flavo and ventralis here in manila? too bad for the locals hobbyist here.

Hi Johan, will it be possible to buy directly from you in manila? Im living in manila.

[Johan]

Why dont we get flavo and ventralis here in manila? too bad for the locals hobbyist here.

Hi Johan, will it be possible to buy directly from you in manila? Im living in manila.

Th reason is very simple. You buy at Cartimar and that is the national Dumpster for left overs..

All fish NOT accepted by the exporters end up there. A FULL BIG BAG with some 40 or 50 fishes brings a 100 peso ( US 2,50)...

So there you have the reason why......

Beside that , I would not buy it in Manila. the water you have over there comes ALL from Cavite and is LOADED with Brooklynella and Cryto

Sensitive species like these simply will parish away...

Sorry if you want our fish ,you have to come to Mactan Island

www.spectacularmarinetreasures.com

Cheers, Johan

[naivete]

Thanks for the info. I actually buy from exporter friends and generally don't go to cartimar to buy fish.

I frequently go to Cebu for business. Hope it is possible for me to visit and buy from you directly when im there. If you don't mind sending me a PM for the address and contact number.

thanks.