Rusty X Flame angelfish

[Digiman]

u shud try pairing it if you dare.

all hell will break lose.

Bloodshed!!

But i wonder if the more flame looking rusty flame will be less aggressive than a rusty looking rusty flame?

[yikai]

Bloodshed!!

But i wonder if the more flame looking rusty flame will be less aggressive than a rusty looking rusty flame?

not quite/

my first rusty flame is more flame than rusty.

but it's v aggressive also

but generally speaking

most dwarf angels are aggressive towards their own kind bah. esp if both are males.

[Digiman]

Both flame and rusty angels are considered the more aggressive. So they're hybrids will likely be at least as aggressive.

Mellow species like colini and golden if they ever produce any hybrids will be v interesting and definitely need a peaceful tank.

[dnsfpl]

u shud try pairing it if you dare.

all hell will break lose.

dont think i have the skill and experience yet

give me another 1-2 years and i might consider taking up the challenge, for my new tank

as for now, this rusty flame from digi will be my last fish in this tank

[naivete]

Just wanna share the rusty flame hydrid (sold to me as flame angel) i bought last sunday at an exporter LFS in Manila Philippines. It's only around 1.2 inches in size. still training to eat frozen and prepared food in QT with larger flame angel.

bought this quite cheap.

[Eniram]

Wow lucky catch bro.

[yikai]

very nice.

good luck adding it into the tank with the flame angel.

i have a pair of rusty flames and a pair of flame angels.

very difficult for me to do because the pair of flames were established, and i added in the rusty flame pairs at different time.

so the fighting was quite severe for 2 occasions.

[naivete]

the flame and the rusty flame is now together in the QT and no signs of aggression toward each other. They have begun to take in frozen as of today. Will train now for pellets.

Im thinking of transferring them once they are bolder and fat as i have a bicolor now in the main tank.

[Dispar_Anthias]

Added 4 at one go but little to no aggression... Probably becos they are the smallest fish in my tank. Will post pic if I an get good photo but as per what lemonlemon and digiman said, a very bold tiny fish tat will hold its ground even against larger fishes

[FuEl]

Congrats on your find. Apparently there has never been any rusty angels collected in the collection locale of these fish.

[yikai]

where was the rusty flame collected?

fuel, there is no such thing as a shepardi angel being collected anywhere near philippines. i give up trying to convince you.

suppliers can list what they want and besides, rusty flames are 100% identical looking to shepardi. so even if i fly to guam and personally collect one real shepardi for you now, no one will ever tell the difference unless DNA test is being done.

dom, you still have your harem of flames? or are they all gone now.

[Dispar_Anthias]

where was the rusty flame collected?

fuel, there is no such thing as a shepardi angel being collected anywhere near philippines. i give up trying to convince you.

suppliers can list what they want and besides, rusty flames are 100% identical looking to shepardi. so even if i fly to guam and personally collect one real shepardi for you now, no one will ever tell the difference unless DNA test is being done.

dom, you still have your harem of flames? or are they all gone now.

Lemon: I ended with only a trio with a few weeks as the fight was really bad. The trio was in constant breeding frenzy every night but it finally went down to 1 (alpha female) recently during a ich/velvet outbreak. Currently the only 1 flame leaves the rusty flame alone and the rusty flame do not bother with the larger flame due to its size. The flame even potray the bending of body and arching of fin towards one of the smaller rusty flame. A courtship / hierachy behavior that I withness when I have group of flame.

[yikai]

Lemon: I ended with only a trio with a few weeks as the fight was really bad. The trio was in constant breeding frenzy every night but it finally went down to 1 (alpha female) recently during a ich/velvet outbreak. Currently the only 1 flame leaves the rusty flame alone and the rusty flame do not bother with the larger flame due to its size. The flame even potray the bending of body and arching of fin towards one of the smaller rusty flame. A courtship / hierachy behavior that I withness when I have group of flame.

flames can breed with rusty flames to produce a rusty flame x flame angel back cross. the hybrid will show more flame characteristics but still remain a rusty flame.

i had a pair of very dominant flame angel pair that spawns every night.

i added in one rusty flame and initially the fight was bad, but subsided after awhile.

but the fight got worse suddenly and i had to separate the flame angel pair.

the lone rusty flame was very territorial and soon took over the entire tank.

i added another rusty flame and fighting ensued. so i separated the new rusty flame.

then i added back the flame pair and the new rusty flame, and the old rusty flame got wacked very badly. but i decided to leave it.

1 week later, all 4 are leaving each other alone and the flame pair has begun spawning again after all that disruption.

the rusty flames have also paired up and the flame angel male is showing interest in the female rusty flame.

[Dispar_Anthias]

flames can breed with rusty flames to produce a rusty flame x flame angel back cross. the hybrid will show more flame characteristics but still remain a rusty flame.

i had a pair of very dominant flame angel pair that spawns every night.

i added in one rusty flame and initially the fight was bad, but subsided after awhile.

but the fight got worse suddenly and i had to separate the flame angel pair.

the lone rusty flame was very territorial and soon took over the entire tank.

i added another rusty flame and fighting ensued. so i separated the new rusty flame.

then i added back the flame pair and the new rusty flame, and the old rusty flame got wacked very badly. but i decided to leave it.

1 week later, all 4 are leaving each other alone and the flame pair has begun spawning again after all that disruption.

the rusty flames have also paired up and the flame angel male is showing interest in the female rusty flame.

For me its just a matter of iumpulse buy Anyway I should be removing quite a few of my bigger fishes soon after my Hong Kong trip next week. Hoping just to keep the Joculator (may create a trio should CF shipment arrive), the harem of rusty flame and a small Bandit angel(Hoping to find a small pair in HK) and thats it for my fish list.

[yikai]

haha.

post a pic of your rusty angel harem. i only have a pair. wanted a harem but diversity is more important for me.

interested in the appearance of your rusty flames as every one is different.

[Dispar_Anthias]

haha.

post a pic of your rusty angel harem. i only have a pair. wanted a harem but diversity is more important for me.

interested in the appearance of your rusty flames as every one is different.

Will do once I can get a decent pic of them. Yes, its really fascinating that every piece was diff in shape colouration and pattern.

[dnsfpl]

bandit angel...in my wish list too lol

[Dispar_Anthias]

bandit angel...in my wish list too lol

Bandits are easily obtainable, it just the 3 inches one are so rare. I regretted not getting the pair at reborn when it arrive. I was practically staring at them for 1/1/2 hrs before an uncle came and took one away.

[dnsfpl]

months ago lck came in 3-5

went next day, to see only, all gone

[Digiman]

months ago lck came in 3-5

went next day, to see only, all gone

Most likely all dead.

[Johan]

where was the rusty flame collected?

fuel, there is no such thing as a shepardi angel being collected anywhere near philippines. i give up trying to convince you.

suppliers can list what they want and besides, rusty flames are 100% identical looking to shepardi. so even if i fly to guam and personally collect one real shepardi for you now, no one will ever tell the difference unless DNA test is being done.

dom, you still have your harem of flames? or are they all gone now.

Well it is about time that an exporter and expert is giving comments on the utterly WRONG statement of Mr tea. First of all I am the shipper of the shipment to Junkai and Victor Of Irwana in Singapore that made it to REEDBUILDERS and yesterday I have send again some C shepardi ( oeps, soryr Mr.tea false right) to Singapore.

let me put it this way the "false "shepardi occurs on 50 meters depth at a certain place where NO SINGLE RUSTY ANGEL EVER HAS BEEN FOUND!!.Rusty Angels come from the TOTAL OTHER SIDE of this BIG Archipelago then our Shepardi which is more or less FACING across the seas GUAM indeeed!

I have been no 37 years in the TRADE not a hobbyist like Mr Tea that knowledge comes from looking over and over on the internet only.Perhaps he is a big shot in Singapore , but nyo in my book!!

I am a COLLECTOR ( collectinbg for the trade) and have been collecting now like I said 37 years!!. I have been importing C shepardi already from Guam 30 years ago!! while I still had beside my stations in the Red Sea and Kenya and Philippines a wholesale company in the Netherlands.

If Mr. tea want to go to battle against my holding a PhD in ichthyology I would like to say LET's ROCK !!

Thanking you all for your time,

Johan

www.spectacularmarinetreasures.com

[yikai]

Hi Johan,

thanks for your reply.

how sure are you that Centropyge shepardi and rusty flame angels are not the same thing?

there have been extensive discussion on this topic by john coppolino and other ichthyologist that pure shepardis are a result of natural hybridisation between the flame angel and the rusty angel fish that have set up camp and distribution in guam and the marianas. and some parts of japan.

assuming that that is true, which i believe is so, then there is technically no difference in a rusty flame, and a shepardi. and the only difference in the fish would be the name that's given to it over many years that everyone is so accustomed to.

a rusty flame is no difference in appearance to a shepardi. i would believe that someone of your 37 years of knowledge and your holding of a PhD would know. so how then, would you tell me the difference between a rusty flame and a shepardi, phenotypically based on appeance only. and NOT location, nor DNA testing? if i were to dump 100 "rusty flame" angels into your shepardi collection area without you knowing, would you be able to differentiate these 100 fakes from the real shepardi? i doubt it.

i would say impossible even. appearance wise there is no difference

look, no one here, especially not me, is questioning your knowledge on this and certainly not your expertise. it is a grey area as with most hybrid stories. i am not saying you are wrong and i am right. neither am i forcing you to believe me. i don't have a phd and i am not an expert like you.

but i am dissapointed that a person with your qualification would lash out here with such hostility and lack of composure. i mean, you have been collecting for some 37 years right? i'm sure you can shed more information and enlighten ignorant ol' me.

[yikai]

and btw,

i was the one who wrote the reefbuilders article complementing your fishes and have been to unpack all the shipments that you sent to junkai and victor of iwarna.

i was, and remain very impressed by your livestock quality. arriving very healthily and with numerous rare and undescribed species. that is, until now.

it's really a shame that you replied in such a childish and angry manner where a simple healthy discussion on this grey area in flame-rusty hybrids could have been carried out.

[Johan]

First I have not cast the first stone ,you did . As a hobbyist you dare to step on my turf as a professional and even the collector of said species!

Writing : "Suppliers can tell what ever they want.... and so on..ARROGANCE TO THE TOP !!!What do you know of the origin of the fish. while looking ONLY at your aquarium??

Once more there are NO Rusty Angels to be found in the VERY remote place we collect on a DAILY basis BOTH Loricula and shepardi angels. These two DO crossbreed !! We even get C. multicolor there..

Looking at the places we get Rusty Angels and the Shepardi it is like telling me that Penguins and polar bear can cross breed too! While we all know that one lives on the Antarctic and the other at the North Pole.

Perhaps you take me for a silly Philippino, well I am from Europe.

I rest my case

Your not in my league ,and for sure not my cup of tea.....

And your punch line "I am impressed that is.until now." Coming from your mouth,I take as a compliment..

Because you can fool others but NOT IMPRESS ME!!

[Digiman]

Hi Johan,

It is really nice to see someone who is a collector of marine fishes for our hobby to join our forum.

Your experience and expertise would bring great knowledge and benefit to our forum.

However it is rather sad to see your first post being so hostile.

Lemon is not some bigshot here in singapore, he is a just a hobbyist like anyone of us here in this forum, but a very enthusiastic and passionate one. Indeed true that whatever he said is based on what he read and researched over the net and reference books, but that doesn't mean that he must be wrong about what he said on shepardi angels. In the literature it is written very clearly that Shepardi angels are found only in the western pacific, around mariana and ogasawara. The rusty flames that were caught in philippines are completely identical in appearance but that does not mean it is the same centropyge shepardi from Guam. In fact now there's even a high possiibility that the true shepardi in Guam may not be a valid species but a hybrid itself.

Anyway the report should be out soon and it by then we'll know if the rusty flames from philippines are of any difference from the shepardi in guam. So let's end this topic here as of now.