Need advice: Coral chip to sand

[edneo]

Hi all

Have a month old 2ft tank complete with crushed coral , LR , few fishes and couple of corals... Read from some threads that crushed corals tend to trap dirt and stuff... Is it better to change to live sand? If so, how do I go about doing it? Slowly pick out the coral chips and drop sand in?? Btw am using under gravel filter so need to remove the under gravel tube?

All advice appreciated..

Thanks in advance....

[tunicate]

Under gravel filter is not common in marine tanks. I don't think it's efficient enough to handle bio load of marine LS.

[BFG]

You can remove a portion of the coral chip and replace it with sand. You really need to take your time doing this, like doing a portion a month at a time. What you are doing is removing some media that are currently filled with bacteria and such. Remove too much and the leftover population of beneficial bacteria are overwhelm and might not cope with elevated level of harmful toxic chemical.

Anyway, where did you get the idea to use an undergravel filter?

[raymus]

Hi all

Have a month old 2ft tank complete with crushed coral , LR , few fishes and couple of corals... Read from some threads that crushed corals tend to trap dirt and stuff... Is it better to change to live sand? If so, how do I go about doing it? Slowly pick out the coral chips and drop sand in?? Btw am using under gravel filter so need to remove the under gravel tube?

All advice appreciated..

Thanks in advance....

Hi, i would suggest u to turn off ur return pump and slowly remove the coral chips. try not to steer the detritus.

In theory, the UG filter circulates water through the gravel, where healthy bacteria grow and break down the fish waste. the gravel begins to pack with so much silt and dirt that circulation stops and the bacteria suffocate. Since the filter still appears to be working, water quality deteriorates, usually unnoticed until it is too late. If the tank is medicated or overfed, an even more rapid die-off of the culture may occur. A speedy water change may avert disaster, but this is the sort of headache and frustration

Generally it is a risk to run UG.

u can obtain live sand usually FOC from reefer here. or cultivate urself as it will be cheaper compared to getting those packet of live sand sell in the market.

You can try to scoope the sand in a small cup and slowly lift down to the bottom of ur tank and pour onto slowly.

in this case u will minimise cloudly of your water.

Hopes my 2 cents help

[tunicate]

BTW, nobody says you cannot lay sand over crushed corals. If your current crushed corals contains beneficial bacteria, they'll eventually propagate into the sand too.

[Terryz_]

Hi, i would suggest u to turn off ur return pump and slowly remove the coral chips. try not to steer the detritus.

In theory, the UG filter circulates water through the gravel, where healthy bacteria grow and break down the fish waste. the gravel begins to pack with so much silt and dirt that circulation stops and the bacteria suffocate. Since the filter still appears to be working, water quality deteriorates, usually unnoticed until it is too late. If the tank is medicated or overfed, an even more rapid die-off of the culture may occur. A speedy water change may avert disaster, but this is the sort of headache and frustration

Generally it is a risk to run UG.

u can obtain live sand usually FOC from reefer here. or cultivate urself as it will be cheaper compared to getting those packet of live sand sell in the market.

You can try to scoope the sand in a small cup and slowly lift down to the bottom of ur tank and pour onto slowly.

in this case u will minimise cloudly of your water.

Hopes my 2 cents help

The under gravel filter in actually a plenum filtration(without the tubing, a very old filtration system which works similarly to a DSB...

The top gravel will be exposed to oxygen rich water which aerobic nitrifying bactera will converts the generated ammonia into nitrites and the bottom which is devoid of oxygen will inhibit anaerobic bacteria, which converts nitrates into nitrogen.

You can continue using it, and add more sand onto the top... Depends on how much gravel you have in your tank right now...

[yikai]

Hi, i would suggest u to turn off ur return pump and slowly remove the coral chips. try not to steer the detritus.

In theory, the UG filter circulates water through the gravel, where healthy bacteria grow and break down the fish waste. the gravel begins to pack with so much silt and dirt that circulation stops and the bacteria suffocate. Since the filter still appears to be working, water quality deteriorates, usually unnoticed until it is too late. If the tank is medicated or overfed, an even more rapid die-off of the culture may occur. A speedy water change may avert disaster, but this is the sort of headache and frustration

Generally it is a risk to run UG.

u can obtain live sand usually FOC from reefer here. or cultivate urself as it will be cheaper compared to getting those packet of live sand sell in the market.

You can try to scoope the sand in a small cup and slowly lift down to the bottom of ur tank and pour onto slowly.

in this case u will minimise cloudly of your water.

Hopes my 2 cents help

in microbiology, bacteria do not suffocate... bacteria cannot breathe in the literal sense..

dirt and silt accumulate due to low flow. and by removing gravel too quickly, the dirt and silt will cause the tank to be cloudy. if the system is healthy and stable, this cloudy effect will only cause temporary blurriness and will have no effect on bacteria or anything. perhaps only an increase in nitrates and phosphates which have been accumulating in the dirt.

and bacteria that convert nitrogenous waste to harmless nitrogen gas are anaerobic. this means they live in conditions with no oxygen. how can they suffocate if they don't use oxygen?

just my humble opinion.

[edneo]

thank you all for the valuable advice... guess i should do something with the under gravel filter first before proceeding with the sand... thanks a lot..

[yellowtang]

Ed,

remove the under gravel filter if you are serious in this reefing hobby. While its ok in the short term, you cant depend on it in the long run. It will proves to be more of a problem later. Since your tank is only 1 month old, you can easily change the system without much of a trouble. Do read up. Books are easilt available at the library or find out more from fellow reefers.

Do it right the first time.

Cheers and happy reefing.

[raymus]

in microbiology, bacteria do not suffocate... bacteria cannot breathe in the literal sense..

dirt and silt accumulate due to low flow. and by removing gravel too quickly, the dirt and silt will cause the tank to be cloudy. if the system is healthy and stable, this cloudy effect will only cause temporary blurriness and will have no effect on bacteria or anything. perhaps only an increase in nitrates and phosphates which have been accumulating in the dirt.

and bacteria that convert nitrogenous waste to harmless nitrogen gas are anaerobic. this means they live in conditions with no oxygen. how can they suffocate if they don't use oxygen?

just my humble opinion.

thanks bro. info came from

http://www.bestfish.com/ug.html

Quote Copyright © 1986 James M. Kostich

[raymus]

Quote from James M. Kostich.

The risks of UG filters. If all else is perfect - if the fish are not overfed, if circulation is not hindered, if the tank is not medicated, and if the gravel is cleaned frequently with water changes - success can be achieved using UG filters. We stock UG filters and power heads mostly for those experienced hobbyists who have had previous success. Unfortunately, in most cases, something is less than perfect. Usually, after a few months of operation, the gravel begins to pack with so much silt and dirt that circulation stops and the bacteria suffocate. Since the filter still appears to be working, water quality deteriorates, usually unnoticed until it is too late. If the tank is medicated or overfed, an even more rapid die-off of the culture may occur. A speedy water change may avert disaster, but this is the sort of headache and frustration we are trying to spare our customers.

..

I believe, this is not a referral of DSB set up.

In a DSB, we understand that bacteria that convert nitrogenous waste to harmless nitrogen gas are anaerobic. this means they live in conditions with no oxygen.

i guess this article is not reffering to DSB, and we assume/ believe that Ed Neo is not going to set up a DSB in a 2 full main tank too.

Hopes this article by James M. Kostich helps us understand better on UG and thanks for ur enquiries.

[Terryz_]

Quote from James M. Kostich.

The risks of UG filters. If all else is perfect - if the fish are not overfed, if circulation is not hindered, if the tank is not medicated, and if the gravel is cleaned frequently with water changes - success can be achieved using UG filters. We stock UG filters and power heads mostly for those experienced hobbyists who have had previous success. Unfortunately, in most cases, something is less than perfect. Usually, after a few months of operation, the gravel begins to pack with so much silt and dirt that circulation stops and the bacteria suffocate. Since the filter still appears to be working, water quality deteriorates, usually unnoticed until it is too late. If the tank is medicated or overfed, an even more rapid die-off of the culture may occur. A speedy water change may avert disaster, but this is the sort of headache and frustration we are trying to spare our customers.

..

I believe, this is not a referral of DSB set up.

In a DSB, we understand that bacteria that convert nitrogenous waste to harmless nitrogen gas are anaerobic. this means they live in conditions with no oxygen.

i guess this article is not reffering to DSB, and we assume/ believe that Ed Neo is not going to set up a DSB in a 2 full main tank too.

Hopes this article by James M. Kostich helps us understand better on UG and thanks for ur enquiries.

Yes, but in the case of circulation stop, it create a anaerobic enivironment for the bacteria, that is the same as a DSB... The bacteria will not die becos there is no oxygen in the water...

He can convert it is a jaubert system if he cannot remove the UG... I personally used a jaubert system before, quite acceptable but this system is outdated as there are other better ways of removing nitrate...

[yikai]

if there's oxygen, there's no conversion of nitrates to nitrogen.

if there's no oxygen, then there's conversion of nitrates to nitrogen.

simple as that.

in the presence of oxygen, aerobic bacteria convert ammonia to nitrites, then to nitrates.

in the absence of oxygen, the bacteria convert nitrates to nitrogen.

if there's shortage of oxygen due to accumulation of dirt and silt, then yes. the aerobic bacteria will die and conversion of ammonia to nitrates will be reduced and water quality will drop. i get what the article is trying to say and it's true. but the term suffocate is used wrongly. but it's ok

but liverocks and filter wool/media do contain copious amount of aerobic bacteria too. so in a matured system, it's still not that detrimental.

best is just remove the UG filter once and for all.

[edneo]

thank you all once again... i have just removed the piping that goes under gravel...so its just a pipe midway in the tank... hope all goes well cos i suffered too much loss already...

[raymus]

if there's oxygen, there's no conversion of nitrates to nitrogen.

if there's no oxygen, then there's conversion of nitrates to nitrogen.

simple as that.

in the presence of oxygen, aerobic bacteria convert ammonia to nitrites, then to nitrates.

in the absence of oxygen, the bacteria convert nitrates to nitrogen.

if there's shortage of oxygen due to accumulation of dirt and silt, then yes. the aerobic bacteria will die and conversion of ammonia to nitrates will be reduced and water quality will drop. i get what the article is trying to say and it's true. but the term suffocate is used wrongly. but it's ok

but liverocks and filter wool/media do contain copious amount of aerobic bacteria too. so in a matured system, it's still not that detrimental.

best is just remove the UG filter once and for all.

Cheers bro.. =p

it is always nice to have lemonlemon and others here to share their valuable knowledge and experience.

thanks bro !!!

[kianhl]

BTW, nobody says you cannot lay sand over crushed corals. If your current crushed corals contains beneficial bacteria, they'll eventually propagate into the sand too.

What is the advantage of laying sand over crushed corals as compared to replacing the crushed corals with sand?

I currently have crushed corals as my substrate and I can see algae growing on the sides within the substrate. I guess the bacteria has provided the algae with nutrients to bloom due to the trapped detritus. If I now cover this gravel with a sand bed, won't the bacteria become anaerobic and convert the nitrates to nitrogen? That would solve my high nitrate level problem.

[tunicate]

In the interest of retaining most of the beneficial bacteria in the crushed corals, the quickest way is just to lay er it with sand. So the key word here is "quickest". Subsequently, depending on the overall depth of the substrate, one can probably treat it like a DSB. There're reasons why some might consider this method, like :

(1) Wanting to convert to a finer substrate look in the main display.

(2) Decides to keep fishes like some wrasse, or snails, star fishes that needs sand.

(3) Want to control level of NO3 using DSB.

BTW, I've seen algae growth on tanks with sand bottom too.

But for me, if I want a DSB, I'd probably do the following instead:

(1) Relocate LS to temporary holding tank.

(2) Remove all coral chip & UG from main display.

(3) Gently rinse out the coral chip with tank water during WC.

(4) Place coral chip into a basket & leave it in the sump.

(5) Introduce sand into main display. (can take opportunity to re-scape if needed)

(5) Let system run for a few days & swap filter socks.

(6) Test water parameter to make sure things are ok before re-introducing LS.

Voila!

But having said all that, I'm still a BB guy.

I prefer using chaeto than DSB to control NO3. But that's just me.

[Oprime]

Dont use Coral Chips because they are FUGLY.

Dont use normal beach sand because its USELESS.

Use Aragonite Sand which has the white beauty of sand plus all the benefits!!