Push Cart @ thomson Plaza

[poomoon]

my take here is ... while some say other LFS also give such answers as 'very easy', etc ... the question will be who are the targeted customers ? i could say ~90% of people visiting LFS (in the east, west, etc - u know which LFSs I'm talking about) are really into husbandry ... or at least newbies who would want to get into that kinda life. For such 'LFS' like in TP, N Sqr or -- others -- , ~90% of the people are 'pet' people, mostly families with kids who are interested to purchase these as pets for the kids.

Of course in the end, bulk of responsibility still goes to the buyer, whether a newbie or experienced one, to ask questions, or research before purchasing. But for such 'pet' people, there's also a responsibility to educate them very well and not just to make a sale (though we know this is a typical pitfall). anyway in the end, if the pet buyer is not successful, then only 3 things come - he did not do it correctly, the LFS did not educte him properly, he decides not to promote any further that LFS and may even tell friends about it, which will also be bad for that business eventually.

i am not against 'pet' people, i myself am one - dogs, birds, etc ... but there is a certain knowledge needed to ensure pets are taken cared of very well, some even become 'family.

all in all, the worst impacted victims will be the very innocent livestocks, who like every one of us, deserves a chance at life.

cheers !

[TayHongSiang]

if you take a look at the IQ packaging, there's no mention of what are the creatures suitable for these nano tanks...as a result, its up to the seller, LFS or the buyer to determine what is suitable to put inside there...so if an ignorant guy thinks he can put an emperior angel inside an IQ5...no one can stop him...i'm targeting at the manufacturer...the least dymax can do, is to state on their packaging what sort of creatures or fishes are appropriate...just like the terrarium....the packaging advices customers that is meant for terrapins, frogs and small amphipians...etc...

[TayHongSiang]

end of the day, wat this thread is all about is, Desi and Ketchap couple does not fully agree with the sales and marketing tactics of this pushcart...simple

[mopiko]

I'll just make it simple here. Is what the push cart and thomson plaza doing:

1. Illegal

2. Unethical.

if its 1, there is no basis for argument as they operate as a legal business. No one have the right to close them down based on what they are doing. Just like the so call slim, maintenance free aquarium. remember?

If its 2, then all of us are unethical in catching wild marine fishes and confine them in our home. There are also many LFS here in Singapore. Irregardless, if they are Sponsors or not in this forum are unethical. If can flame the push cart cos it is unethical and claim that we in this forum are ethical, fair and passionate. Then something is seriously not right in this forum.

Lemon, I understand where you coming from and how passionate, helpful you always been. Unless, this forum operate on a non-profit platform, no need for sponsors and we can go to the extend of listing dishonest, unethical LFS both sponsors and non-sponsors. It better for us to close this thread.

[yikai]

thanks for your reply bro mopiko.

as i've said before reefing is a very grey area in terms of the ethics commitee. what is considered ethical and not ethical?

is catching fish from the wild ethical?

is selective breeding of high grade clownfish ethical?

is selective breeding of anything even ethical? keeping the good ones, culling the unwanted ones.

is keeping moorish idols, achilles tang, and many other sensitive fish ethical?

if not for the marine aquarium trade, many species of fish will not have been discovered and valuable information to science will be lost. some fishes are only discovered via aquarium trade.

everything in this hobby is questionable. but then again, so is many other hobbies when it comes to the "pet trade"

it also boils down to what you define as ethical.

sure catching fish from the ocean on a whole is not ethical. but since it's already been done, does giving them a good home where they can grow and live happily make it ethical? or is it still unethical

ethics is viewed at each step along the way. not as a whole.

if ethics is viewed as a big picture, then the human race is flawed in many ways. but by viewing it in steps, we can make the best of the situation and do something in an ethical way.

i hope you get what i'm trying to say if it sounds confusing.

anyway i can't close this thread because the forum rules are not really broken. yes i see flaming, but more of a "healthy" discussion but no cursing and hurling of vulgarities. i will however, close this thread if the thread starter (desideria) wants the thread to be closed.

i hope no one is seriously offended in this "debate"

once in awhile a good debate topic will pop up and it's good for members to voice out their opinions. but hopefully it does not go too overboard..

[TayHongSiang]

I'll just make it simple here. Is what the push cart and thomson plaza doing:

1. Illegal

2. Unethical.

if its 1, there is no basis for argument as they operate as a legal business. No one have the right to close them down based on what they are doing. Just like the so call slim, maintenance free aquarium. remember?

If its 2, then all of us are unethical in catching wild marine fishes and confine them in our home. There are also many LFS here in Singapore. Irregardless, if they are Sponsors or not in this forum are unethical. If can flame the push cart cos it is unethical and claim that we in this forum are ethical, fair and passionate. Then something is seriously not right in this forum.

Lemon, I understand where you coming from and how passionate, helpful you always been. Unless, this forum operate on a non-profit platform, no need for sponsors and we can go to the extend of listing dishonest, unethical LFS both sponsors and non-sponsors. It better for us to close this thread.

i agree with you...esp 2)

but dun sound so harsh bro...haha...relax...

[divinesloth]

sure catching fish from the ocean on a whole is not ethical. but since it's already been done, does giving them a good home where they can grow and live happily make it ethical? or is it still unethical

That is a good question. I am sure we all have hits and misses. How many fishes have to die before we find one that survive for a while? Even then, how do we define happiness in the fish? I have 1 powder blue and 1 hybrid tang died on me before this current powder black in my 4x2x2 for the last 6 months. Is this ethical or not? If I calculate the number of livestocks that died on me in my 4x2x2 tank, I think it would out-count the typical impulse buy nano with a few re-stocking. Death count wise, is he more ethical than me?

Let's not jump on the push cart shop so quickly. They are only trying to make a living. After so many pages of "discussion", who is going to educate them? Why not make this thread more useful by suggesting ideas and help them build a successful business model?

Eg.

1. Re-look into the type of fishes that can be kept.

- Damsels

- Clowns

2. Come up with a leaflet with instruction on weekly water change

3. Get them to sell pre-mixed salt water in bags so it is easy for their customer to do water change

My 2 cents

[mopiko]

Bro Lemon

It agreeable that ethics should be view in a larger way. Very much like the dolphin issues are RWS. Are they or they are not into conservation?

No human beings is perfect but can i ask what if the so mentioned push cart is one of the sponsor in this forum. Will this so call "friendly" debate thread be still around?

Although there is no name of the push cart mentioned but its very obvious where and who they are. If in future, i encounter such happenings and they happen to be one of the sponsors can i say "oh that fish shop in lavender road, or that fish shop beside QianHu and we have people "flaming" and "healthy" discussion on it?

Not trying to be ###### here but there seriously a need to know what we can, cannot do on this forum and how transparent the discussion can be.

[Ketchup]

Haha... didn't expect the sharing of this experience with this LFS create such a buzz. Keep it going though as i think there's always two sides to the coin/story.

FIrst of all, I don't think they have done anything illegal, unless maybe they imported and sell some endangered species, which i doubted it.

Second, there's nothing wrong with keeping Nano/Pico tanks. Look at it this way, people keep betta (Fighting fish) in jars... so this has been done for ages. So whether is it IQ3/IQ5 or some PRC pico tank or tank with no light, no filter, it is still ok. If you look at our forums and RC, there's plenty of nano/pico tank that are thriving.

Third, there's really nothing wrong with keeping marine fishes. Most of the species we commonly kept are not endangered. So it's like keeping other pets, be it hamsters, cats, dogs or freshwater fishes.

What i feel wrong about this shop is that they are not being a responsible or should i say an ethical seller. Sure, some LFS will sell you blue tang or any fishes you asked for as long as you pay for it. However, most LFS, including most of our sponsors here, will take the next step to ask what size is your tank. Or when you ask them, they will tell you if it's suitable. Some LFS even reserved fishes for us, but didn't charge us if the fish fail to survive the quarantine or holding period. These LFS are the one that we should patronise. Let's look at it with another angle. Imagine you are a construction company owner that hires 20 foreign workers. Would it be ethical to put them in say 1 5-room HDB flats? Sure, they can all find a spot to sleep but you know for sure it's not the right thing to do. (in this case, it would be illegal as well if I am not wrong).

The key i'm am trying to say is that this LFS should not be selling the nano tank with fishes that is not suitable such as blue tang. When the blue tang get bigger, what will happen? Do it end up in toilet bowl? or being thrown into east coast beach?

Most of the reefers here join the forum for the knowledge to DO THE RIGHT THING. We ask questions like what fish to stock etc. The LFS, being the front line, should be responsible enough to give a knowledgeable answer and DO THE RIGHT THING. For most of us, i think be it a nano or a 10 feet tank, we always try to balance the needs of the fish and our needs/ability to provide the best environment for the fish/corals. That's the reason why we spent thousands on expensive lighting to try and replicate the sun, thousands on skimmers to skim the waste, thousands on fishfood. This is what we, being responsible pet owners should do.

Sure, sometimes, things don't go our way, it could be the fish already have disease or collection via cyanide etc. Or it could be other reasons, at least we tried our BEST.

[MarcoVan]

Haha... didn't expect the sharing of this experience with this LFS create such a buzz. Keep it going though as i think there's always two sides to the coin/story.

FIrst of all, I don't think they have done anything illegal, unless maybe they imported and sell some endangered species, which i doubted it.

Second, there's nothing wrong with keeping Nano/Pico tanks. Look at it this way, people keep betta (Fighting fish) in jars... so this has been done for ages. So whether is it IQ3/IQ5 or some PRC pico tank or tank with no light, no filter, it is still ok. If you look at our forums and RC, there's plenty of nano/pico tank that are thriving.

Third, there's really nothing wrong with keeping marine fishes. Most of the species we commonly kept are not endangered. So it's like keeping other pets, be it hamsters, cats, dogs or freshwater fishes.

What i feel wrong about this shop is that they are not being a responsible or should i say an ethical seller. Sure, some LFS will sell you blue tang or any fishes you asked for as long as you pay for it. However, most LFS, including most of our sponsors here, will take the next step to ask what size is your tank. Or when you ask them, they will tell you if it's suitable. Some LFS even reserved fishes for us, but didn't charge us if the fish fail to survive the quarantine or holding period. These LFS are the one that we should patronise. Let's look at it with another angle. Imagine you are a construction company owner that hires 20 foreign workers. Would it be ethical to put them in say 1 5-room HDB flats? Sure, they can all find a spot to sleep but you know for sure it's not the right thing to do. (in this case, it would be illegal as well if I am not wrong).

The key i'm am trying to say is that this LFS should not be selling the nano tank with fishes that is not suitable such as blue tang. When the blue tang get bigger, what will happen? Do it end up in toilet bowl? or being thrown into east coast beach?

Most of the reefers here join the forum for the knowledge to DO THE RIGHT THING. We ask questions like what fish to stock etc. The LFS, being the front line, should be responsible enough to give a knowledgeable answer and DO THE RIGHT THING. For most of us, i think be it a nano or a 10 feet tank, we always try to balance the needs of the fish and our needs/ability to provide the best environment for the fish/corals. That's the reason why we spent thousands on expensive lighting to try and replicate the sun, thousands on skimmers to skim the waste, thousands on fishfood. This is what we, being responsible pet owners should do.

Sure, sometimes, things don't go our way, it could be the fish already have disease or collection via cyanide etc. Or it could be other reasons, at least we tried our BEST.

Ketchup, I love you! HAHA. spot on with your comments.

[MarcoVan]

Bro Lemon

It agreeable that ethics should be view in a larger way. Very much like the dolphin issues are RWS. Are they or they are not into conservation?

No human beings is perfect but can i ask what if the so mentioned push cart is one of the sponsor in this forum. Will this so call "friendly" debate thread be still around?

Although there is no name of the push cart mentioned but its very obvious where and who they are. If in future, i encounter such happenings and they happen to be one of the sponsors can i say "oh that fish shop in lavender road, or that fish shop beside QianHu and we have people "flaming" and "healthy" discussion on it?

Not trying to be ###### here but there seriously a need to know what we can, cannot do on this forum and how transparent the discussion can be.

Bro, regards to the highlighted point/question, I feel it will be around. This forum is built on the basis of proper feedback channel as well as knowledge transfer to fellow reefers as well as the LFS owners. If you feel being discriminated or prejudiced, you can always post a thread online and garner feedbacks and opinions from us. Surely someone will feel the same way as yourself.

Cheers.

i've no relation to the push cart LFS mentioned on this thread but i think its is not fair that they should be listed so openly and condemned on this forum. They are also running a business just like the sponsors LFS in this forum. Imagine, if they are one of the sponsor on this forum. Can we condemn them so openly all for the sake of - "proper transfer of knowledge is established and strong ethinical practices are uphold within this hobby"?

Anyway to reply your comment above bro, I will say yes, it may not be morally right for us to "flame" this pushcart or practising double standards (I believe this is what you are trying to tell us here ) but then, the general idea of this thread is to spread awareness about the irresponsibility and the ethnics behind the business. I am not here to tell you that "hey, don't patronise them!" "hey they are bad eggs of the crop". The final decision lies with you ultimately - all I am doing is to tell you that what they are doing is not right.

Seriously, I was a newbie before and am a newbie now. I was taught all kinds of funny methods to reef but fortunately I met a few good people along the way who taught me the right stuff and guess what, the first good method that was taught to me by Chan of ML then in 2000 was to model my setup according to one of their tanks in the shop..

Get my drift now? (:

HTH. Cheers.

[TayHongSiang]

let me put it this way...if we keep harbouring about ethics...everyone here should be vegetarian already...tell me which business in this world does not have any negative impact on the environment, people, families, relationships, etc...

we cannot accept wat this pushcart is doing because we are brainwashed / somewat educated to think that it is not "right" to have a blue tang in a nano....and this does not make sense....bcoz the fish will outgrow the tank and the owner will throw away the fish somewhere....wait a minute...this is jumping into negative conclusion...why we don't think that the owner will start to think about going seriously into reefing and getting a proper tank to sustain these fishes?....why must we always think of something negative?...

[MarcoVan]

let me put it this way...if we keep harbouring about ethics...everyone here should be vegetarian already...tell me which business in this world does not have any negative impact on the environment, people, families, relationships, etc...

we cannot accept wat this pushcart is doing because we are brainwashed / somewat educated to think that it is not "right" to have a blue tang in a nano....and this does not make sense....bcoz the fish will outgrow the tank and the owner will throw away the fish somewhere....wait a minute...this is jumping into negative conclusion...why we don't think that the owner will start to think about going seriously into reefing and getting a proper tank to sustain these fishes?....why must we always think of something negative?...

I will be glad if the owner feels the same way as you bro. Let's hope so ba

[Ketchup]

let me put it this way...if we keep harbouring about ethics...everyone here should be vegetarian already...tell me which business in this world does not have any negative impact on the environment, people, families, relationships, etc...

we cannot accept wat this pushcart is doing because we are brainwashed / somewat educated to think that it is not "right" to have a blue tang in a nano....and this does not make sense....bcoz the fish will outgrow the tank and the owner will throw away the fish somewhere....wait a minute...this is jumping into negative conclusion...why we don't think that the owner will start to think about going seriously into reefing and getting a proper tank to sustain these fishes?....why must we always think of something negative?...

AH Siang

You are missing the point. If i go to the shop and say i want to keep blue tang, then i would expect the LFS to tell me to keep at least 2 ft tank. If i say i wanna keep a nano tank (say like lemon's bro, bear), i would expect him to tell me to keep goby, shrimp, pom pom crab etc. I don't expect them to sell me a nano tank with blue tank in it. It's as simple as that.

As someone who has financial/business background, i would strongly advise them (not flaming) that this will ultimately be detrimental to their business in the long run. I know one LFS that basically spoil their reputation by doing similar. Likewise, the maintenance-free marine tank seller is also not doing as well now if i am not wrong. Ultimately, you should be responsible to your customers. If you upsell, ultimately you will get caught and suffers.

Also, i think being ethical is a complex issue. If we eat eggs that are sustainably farmed, i don't see what is wrong with it so I'm not going to be vegetarian!

[TayHongSiang]

AH Siang

You are missing the point. If i go to the shop and say i want to keep blue tang, then i would expect the LFS to tell me to keep at least 2 ft tank. If i say i wanna keep a nano tank (say like lemon's bro, bear), i would expect him to tell me to keep goby, shrimp, pom pom crab etc. I don't expect them to sell me a nano tank with blue tank in it. It's as simple as that.

As someone who has financial/business background, i would strongly advise them (not flaming) that this will ultimately be detrimental to their business in the long run. I know one LFS that basically spoil their reputation by doing similar. Likewise, the maintenance-free marine tank seller is also not doing as well now if i am not wrong. Ultimately, you should be responsible to your customers. If you upsell, ultimately you will get caught and suffers.

Also, i think being ethical is a complex issue. If we eat eggs that are sustainably farmed, i don't see what is wrong with it so I'm not going to be vegetarian!

i know lah...wat they r doing...from our perspective is out of this world...bcoz we have this conventional idea that blue tang is meant for big tanks...n that has been drilled into our minds...

i think if you recall, the last Aquarama, they kept clowns together with goldfishes or something in freshwater...

we choose wat we can accept...

i think this pushcart will bring some biz to LFS...bcoz when the owners get these nanos...they will start to explore the world of reefing and will likely consider having proper set-up...this is how some of us started...

[desideria]

I think this thread also proves another thing.... we reefers are very eloquent debaters and passionate in what we believe in!

[TayHongSiang]

I think this thread also proves another thing.... we reefers are very eloquent debaters and passionate in what we believe in!

just dun get too emotional can already....i dun want to come to a situation where i have to wear a helmet or put on a mask when i go LFS...someone here has been threatening me to pour coffee over my face...lol!

[Ketchup]

I think sometimes reefers also think that our tank is like LFS... When we see fishes like 100 BT/YT in some LFS, we may assume that they will "survive" togethr in that small tank... They forget that the LFS is just providing a holding area until they sell off the stocks. So most fishes should not be with the LFS for more than 1-2 weeks.

[unltd]

Well, my take is simple. If we are keeping livestock from the sea, it does not belong to a tank. We are no saints or angels, it is good to educate. But to target a single shop which is small and new is akin to bullying. Especially when other LFS are also promoting these systems.

Furthermore, we (me included) are all hiding behind a computer/mobile screen and commenting.

This is cyberbullying.

[iskay]

Okay, let's take ethics and morality out of equation and focus on the business aspect.

Targeting impulse buying will NOT sustain the business long term. This was my message on my second post on this thread.

[Ketchup]

Well, my take is simple. If we are keeping livestock from the sea, it does not belong to a tank. We are no saints or angels, it is good to educate. But to target a single shop which is small and new is akin to bullying. Especially when other LFS are also promoting these systems.

Furthermore, we (me included) are all hiding behind a computer/mobile screen and commenting.

This is cyberbullying.

True, Marine fishes does not belong to the tank. The same goes for dogs/cats and hamsters. The reason why we are able to do it now is technology and knowledge. That's why we want to share the knowledge on the forum.

If there's no chiller, you can't keep marine fish/corals, no MH/LED, you cant keep corals. Who is to say we can't keep sharks or other exotic pets in future. Even deep water fishes can be kept and breed these days.

I do not consider posting here as cyberbullying. The reason is simple, i believe most of us only speak the truth. I do not care if the shop is big or small, new or old or whether if it's sponsor on SRC. Those people who follow what me and desi says on our thread will know how much we complained about certain LFS who are sponsors here. They are just sponsors, running a business. Being their customers, we have the right to comment, be it good or bad. Likewise, we have commented on certain LFS/individuals that provide good service/products.

Anyway, everyone view things differently. That's the beauty of having an open discussion on the forum.

[Ketchup]

Okay, let's take ethics and morality out of equation and focus on the business aspect.

Targeting impulse buying will NOT sustain the business long term. This was my message on my second post on this thread.

Yup. Like what i have said. By doing so, they will ultimately lose their business. I sincerely hope that should they come across this thread, they may change their business practice.

[MarcoVan]

True, Marine fishes does not belong to the tank. The same goes for dogs/cats and hamsters. The reason why we are able to do it now is technology and knowledge. That's why we want to share the knowledge on the forum.

If there's no chiller, you can't keep marine fish/corals, no MH/LED, you cant keep corals. Who is to say we can't keep sharks or other exotic pets in future. Even deep water fishes can be kept and breed these days.

I do not consider posting here as cyberbullying. The reason is simple, i believe most of us only speak the truth. I do not care if the shop is big or small, new or old or whether if it's sponsor on SRC. Those people who follow what me and desi says on our thread will know how much we complained about certain LFS who are sponsors here. They are just sponsors, running a business. Being their customers, we have the right to comment, be it good or bad. Likewise, we have commented on certain LFS/individuals that provide good service/products.

Anyway, everyone view things differently. That's the beauty of having an open discussion on the forum.

+1.

Anyway the market here in Singapore is so small. We do not have to hide behind our computer monitors long before our faces will surface in one of the lfs. There's no need to bully or be a keyboard warrior. You can always confront me when you see me in lfs. I will be glad to tell you more about what I feel about this hobby. But right now, the general thumb of this thread is to let newbies or freshmen to know that this shop is irresponsible. Detrimental on their long term business.

Period.

[mopiko]

True, Marine fishes does not belong to the tank. The same goes for dogs/cats and hamsters. The reason why we are able to do it now is technology and knowledge. That's why we want to share the knowledge on the forum.

If there's no chiller, you can't keep marine fish/corals, no MH/LED, you cant keep corals. Who is to say we can't keep sharks or other exotic pets in future. Even deep water fishes can be kept and breed these days.

Bro i dont agree on this lei. I have no chiller but keeping FOWLR

I do not consider posting here as cyberbullying. The reason is simple, i believe most of us only speak the truth. I do not care if the shop is big or small, new or old or whether if it's sponsor on SRC. Those people who follow what me and desi says on our thread will know how much we complained about certain LFS who are sponsors here. They are just sponsors, running a business. Being their customers, we have the right to comment, be it good or bad. Likewise, we have commented on certain LFS/individuals that provide good service/products.

Bro, I don't agree on this too. Long time back wrote bad comments about a LFS who is a sponsor on SRC but the thread was locked and apparently deleted So, I believe if there is no direct mention of sponsors in SRC then it might still be possible.

[poomoon]

Yup. Like what i have said. By doing so, they will ultimately lose their business. I sincerely hope that should they come across this thread, they may change their business practice.

yup ... as a sample ... selling iq3 package with 2 tiny clowns and 1 tiny BT (or vice versa) with a gonio and sand for $2xx ... this is definitely for impulse buying. can see kids saying "2 nemos and doris (hmm, was the name doris?! dory ... )" forget about the price, that's the business whatever mark-up you can do ... but putting all those in one tiny tank ... sigh