Push Cart @ thomson Plaza

[MarcoVan]

OMG! I just read their guide to pico aquarium.

Totally unethical!

Either they didn't cite the source of their pictures nor they give credits to those whose tanks are featured!

2 big jokes I found inside that post were:

• 
  
  
• their temperature - it is in Farenheits instead of Celsius! (since when our MOE teaches us Farenheit?! lol
  
• they actually recommend us to buy heaters for picos! - omg what do they want? ikan billis?
  

Tsk. Pocketocean, you sunk too deep already. We are not prideful, unethical people of a silly reef forum. We may not justify or represent ourselves as ambassadors of Mother Nature. But we express strong sentiments and idealogies for this hobby by making sure that proper transfer of knowledge is established and strong ethinical practices are uphold within this hobby. This is what this forum is about (:

[TayHongSiang]

OMG! I just read their guide to pico aquarium.

Totally unethical!

Either they didn't cite the source of their pictures nor they give credits to those whose tanks are featured!

2 big jokes I found inside that post were:

• 
  
  
• their temperature - it is in Farenheits instead of Celsius! (since when our MOE teaches us Farenheit?! lol
  
• they actually recommend us to buy heaters for picos! - omg what do they want? ikan billis?
  

Tsk. Pocketocean, you sunk too deep already. We are not prideful, unethical people of a silly reef forum. We may not justify or represent ourselves as ambassadors of Mother Nature. But we express strong sentiments and idealogies for this hobby by making sure that proper transfer of knowledge is established and strong ethinical practices are uphold within this hobby. This is what this forum is about (:

before u start to destroy their pushcart...will u be changing your tank? if yes, pm me...

[MarcoVan]

before u start to destroy their pushcart...will u be changing your tank? if yes, pm me...

HAHA! lmao! lol.

I will think about it bro. See what Aquarama offers

[desideria]

zomg.. will we see them @ Aquarama!

and macrovan.. ikan billis.. so funny.. HAHAHAHAH . eh throw in with Char Kway teow la.

[poomoon]

zomg.. will we see them @ Aquarama!

and macrovan.. ikan billis.. so funny.. HAHAHAHAH . eh throw in with Char Kway teow la.

put some sambal in please ...

[mopiko]

sorry double post.

[mopiko]

"But we express strong sentiments and idealogies for this hobby by making sure that proper transfer of knowledge is established and strong ethinical practices are uphold within this hobby. This is what this forum is about (:"

I absolutely agree and support this statement but sadly, its not readily applicable to how some LFS on this forum apply this as their business practices. Its understandable, as end of the day LFS need to make money and the forum need their support and its also not right to lecture how they should run their business.

i've no relation to the push cart LFS mentioned on this thread but i think its is not fair that they should be listed so openly and condemned on this forum. They are also running a business just like the sponsors LFS in this forum. Imagine, if they are one of the sponsor on this forum. Can we condemn them so openly all for the sake of - "proper transfer of knowledge is established and strong ethinical practices are uphold within this hobby"?

If its really so serious, call in the press and SPCA. I'm sure they be glad to do something about it.

[TayHongSiang]

guys, dun be so critical lah...iwarna and ng couple also have IQ tanks with clowns, zoas and anemone inside...let MASS do their job of education...

if this forum becomes so judgmental, i think pple dun dare to post their tank pictures liao...

desi, your tank is too crowded...u beta let go some fishes...its not ethical...lol!!

[unltd]

My thoughts when I read this thread are that it is too judgemental. Let me first clarify I own an IQ5 with fishes, sea fan, LPS and live rock, so I may be slightly biased and definately considered a noob in reefing.

Look at it this way, years ago it was unheard of to have even a marine aquarium, slowly we have acceptable PICO and Nano tanks for certain fishes which were never thought of to be able to survive in such environment.

If we really want things to be totally natural then all those additives, chemicals, equipment like skimmer, chiller etc we use or even the processed fish food should be thrown out. There is no such thing as a natural environment for reefing unless it is the sea, furthermore most livestock we buy come from the sea and are not captively bred. There is always a start somewhere to bring things we fancy to our homes like tropical and marine tank keeping, even keeping of reptiles and exotic animals.

I think to condemm a single business entity to this extent is not right, they are there to do a business just like every other LFS. There are also other LFS who sell these tanks and setup. Who here has never had a livestock that died on you? Who buys only captive bred livestock? Who here only feeds natural food?

Marine reefing may have some way to go to catch up with tropical/freshwater setup as the latter has more diverse captive bred stocks. BTW most websites which recommend tank setup for marine fishes always say minimum 10 gallons for even a fish that requires the smallest setup, previously it was alot more. So well...... PICO and Nano tanks should not even be sold.

Just my 2 cents worth, now you guys can flame me.

I will put my flame suit on!

[yikai]

My thoughts when I read this thread are that it is too judgemental. Let me first clarify I own an IQ5 with fishes, sea fan, LPS and live rock, so I may be slightly biased and definately considered a noob in reefing.

Look at it this way, years ago it was unheard of to have even a marine aquarium, slowly we have acceptable PICO and Nano tanks for certain fishes which were never thought of to be able to survive in such environment.

If we really want things to be totally natural then all those additives, chemicals, equipment like skimmer, chiller etc we use or even the processed fish food should be thrown out. There is no such thing as a natural environment for reefing unless it is the sea, furthermore most livestock we buy come from the sea and are not captively bred. There is always a start somewhere to bring things we fancy to our homes like tropical and marine tank keeping, even keeping of reptiles and exotic animals.

I think to condemm a single business entity to this extent is not right, they are there to do a business just like every other LFS. There are also other LFS who sell these tanks and setup. Who here has never had a livestock that died on you? Who buys only captive bred livestock? Who here only feeds natural food?

Marine reefing may have some way to go to catch up with tropical/freshwater setup as the latter has more diverse captive bred stocks. BTW most websites which recommend tank setup for marine fishes always say minimum 10 gallons for even a fish that requires the smallest setup, previously it was alot more. So well...... PICO and Nano tanks should not even be sold.

Just my 2 cents worth, now you guys can flame me.

I will put my flame suit on!

there's a difference between do-able but controversial, and there's undoable and insane.

keeping a nano tank with small nano fish is unique, a little unorthodox, but completely do-able.

keeping a blue tang, in a nano tank, is un do-able in the next 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 year, or the next millenium.

simple as that.

some things can be done, while others just cannot, no matter what.

just my thoughts.

[unltd]

there's a difference between do-able but controversial, and there's undoable and insane.

keeping a nano tank with small nano fish is unique, a little unorthodox, but completely do-able.

keeping a blue tang, in a nano tank, is un do-able in the next 1 week, 2 weeks, 1 year, or the next millenium.

simple as that.

some things can be done, while others just cannot, no matter what.

just my thoughts.

Like I said, I am a noob. Thanks for your thoughts, well I guess we can go on educating every other LFS that sells these setups. The problem I find for this thread is it is targetted at a single shop which is new, there are other more established shops doing this, why aren't the peps in this thread educating them directly in this same manner?

I agree that keeping a blue tang in a nano could be undoable, but mine has been in my tank for about 3 weeks. It had a ich whitespot outbreak for a few hours earlier this week but was naturally able to battle it without any dosing of chemicals and stuff, so I guess at this size it does not feel stressed, of course I may be wrong. If it grows too big, I definately need to find it a new home, either giveaway or sell to another who has a bigger tank.

I bought a mandarin without knowledge, but gave it up for adoption by another forummer here as I realised it may be feeding too much on the live rock and not adapting to pallets.

Eventually it is up to the responsibility of the person rearing the livestock that matters, even with a huge tank, if you don't feed your fishes, don't do water changes, don't use the right equipment etc, your livestock will still be stressed and die.

If the livestock gets too big, then give or sell it away. Otherwise upgrade to a bigger setup. So I guess for my case now, it is more of a barely doable presently, but maybe not in the next year or few months. By then it will be my responsibility to find my little blue tang a better home.

FYI, if you wana see my tank, you can look at the gonio thread under LPS section. Oh, FYI I am surprised but in my setup, my gonio is actually growing and encrusting further.

Hopefully my tank does not crash, if it does then it definately proves to me a Nano/Pico setup is undoable.

[yikai]

a nano/pico set up is do- able.

but you have to be realistic..

a tang in a nano tank is a crime worldwide. people in the U.S are already against keeping tangs in 2ft and 3ft tanks. if u post there u will get flamed heavily.

but this is not the U.S. asian countries are more tolerant and still say, u know, its ok to keep tangs in a 2ft and 3ft tanks. and i agree. it's ok.

but in a nano/pico tank, is out of the question. the fish may look fine, but it isn't. tangs are like the horses of the sea. they are grazers, and need large spaces to roam.

sure u can say u will remove it when it grows larger. but by removing it when it grows larger, means it's not suitable in the first place. am i right? it's just a temporary solution, which means, not suitable.

i know you're new and still learning. that's good. but some things are just taboo.

if you think what the thompson plaza LFS is getting is harsh, then i'm sorry to say, this is nothing. if i were to post this in an american forum, the people will tear the LFS up to shreds and probably even call animal rights activist to close the shop down. i'm that serious! the people in the states are very outspoken and brutal.

although i don't join in the flaming, but give my honest opinion one or two times in this thread, i feel that this "flaming" is not serious at all.

so, well, just my opinion. u can agree or disagree. up to you.

i speak my mind, and i'm not afraid to do it.

cheers

[LaW]

i agree with lemon.

a tang, no matter a baby one or a large one, its not suppose to be in a too small a tank.

one need to be realistic and not to be ignorant about their growth.

[unltd]

a nano/pico set up is do- able.

but you have to be realistic..

a tang in a nano tank is a crime worldwide. people in the U.S are already against keeping tangs in 2ft and 3ft tanks. if u post there u will get flamed heavily.

but this is not the U.S. asian countries are more tolerant and still say, u know, its ok to keep tangs in a 2ft and 3ft tanks. and i agree. it's ok.

but in a nano/pico tank, is out of the question. the fish may look fine, but it isn't. tangs are like the horses of the sea. they are grazers, and need large spaces to roam.

sure u can say u will remove it when it grows larger. but by removing it when it grows larger, means it's not suitable in the first place. am i right? it's just a temporary solution, which means, not suitable.

i know you're new and still learning. that's good. but some things are just taboo.

if you think what the thompson plaza LFS is getting is harsh, then i'm sorry to say, this is nothing. if i were to post this in an american forum, the people will tear the LFS up to shreds and probably even call animal rights activist to close the shop down. i'm that serious! the people in the states are very outspoken and brutal.

although i don't join in the flaming, but give my honest opinion one or two times in this thread, i feel that this "flaming" is not serious at all.

so, well, just my opinion. u can agree or disagree. up to you.

i speak my mind, and i'm not afraid to do it.

cheers

My opinion is in the first place, captured livestock belongs to the reefs, not in a tank. Most of us in this forum are perpetrators of this crime, I think being critical of what you feel is wrong is normal, healthy and good. But to have it targetted specifically when others are also doing it is wrong, especially if they are the new guys. It reeks of bullying the smaller and meek. I say if this thread wants to serve it's purpose, then take out the direct targetting of a single shop.

Make it an educative thread to discuss what can or cannot go into a small little tank like an IQ3 or IQ5, then go spread this information to all LFS in Singapore.

I too speak my mind (or rather type my feelings in this instance).

I agree to disagree. No love lost

[yikai]

if you disagree then fine with me.

no qualms about it.

i've spoken my mind, given my advice, it's up to you/anyone if you decide to use it or lose it.

and yes, many people in this forum practice bad reefing too. everyone is guilty of it. it all boils down to wether or not the said reefer is willing to change or ignore.

i've not been here for long but i've met both sides.

i've met all kinds of people here but unfortunately singaporeans are quite non-proactive and quiet. they don't like searching for information and prefer to ask. i know because i'm constantly answering questions about fishes. questions that i've already answered in pinned up topics and threads everywhere but people don't search to read.

same with nano/pico tanks. the fishes caught from the sea are at our mercy. so it's our responsibility to do research to give the highest level of care we can provide to these animals.

anyway i don't want to talk too much. people might accuse me of being rude and out-spoken again.

[wilsontantw]

Opps. Accidently sent without completing.

[wilsontantw]

Keep the debate coming in and emotions out. This way, the information presented will be unbias and it makes reading the forum more pleasurable.

I personally feel this is an open economy. Everyone is free to sell anything that's within the law.

Law (the government, not bro Law ah) doesn't say cannot sell IQ5 with Tangs, then it is legal business. No one can close them down. But what we can do, is stop patronizing them. Over time, demand will determine it's success. Or the lack of demand, will spell it's demise. In fact what we should do, is to share why IQ5 shouldn't keep Tangs. And not targeting at the shop owner... He is running a legal business and not a charity/save-our-ocean society. Any self-proclaim activist/group, who feels so strongly against it, can speak to the owner if it's within their charter/ beliefs. Well you guys know where to find the cart.

The forum's objective should be to educate each other, giving members the power of knowledge to decide themselves.

He who doesn't know, is his own fault for not knowing enough before buying.. But the next time, he learns..

In retrospect, if we know a fish is rare and hard to keep (irrespective of tank size) yet we buy it, are we not equally "wrong"? In fact "more wrong" because we did it knowingly!?!

Bro lemon, I admire your knowledge in fish and all, keep the sharing coming... As I always say to you, I'm always learning from you.

This is my opinion. If it means anything at all.

[yikai]

Keep the debate coming in and emotions out. This way, the information presented will be unbias and it makes reading the forum more pleasurable.

I personally feel this is an open economy. Everyone is free to sell anything that's within the law.

Law (the government, not bro Law ah) doesn't say cannot sell IQ5 with Tangs, then it is legal business. No one can close them down. But what we can do, is stop patronizing them. Over time, demand will determine it's success. Or the lack of demand, will spell it's demise. In fact what we should do, is to share why IQ5 shouldn't keep Tangs. And not targeting at the shop owner... He is running a legal business and not a charity/save-our-ocean society. Any self-proclaim activist group, who feels so strongly against it, can speak to the owner if it's within their charter/ beliefs. Well you guys know where that cart is.

The forum's objective should be to educate each other. Lets not make decisions for others, but give them the power of knowledge to decide themselves.

He who doesn't know, is his own fault for not knowing enough before buying.. But the next time, he learns..

In retrospect, if we know a fish is rare and hard to keep (IQ5 or not) yet we buy it, are we not equally "wrong"? In fact "more wrong" because we did it despite knowing how "tough" it is?

Bro lemon, I admire your knowledge in fish and all, keep the sharing coming... As I always say to you, I'm always learning from you.

yes good point.

the world of reefing is constantly marred in grey. seldom black and white.

there will always be people who say oh this is bad, that is bad. i have a relative who is very against marine. everytime she come to my house she will say "omg poor clownfish, poor this poor that"

well, i just tell her honestly. there's nothing "poor thing" about this or that. ignorance aside, my clowns are captive bred and my fishes are healthy as can be and in a good home. there's nothing "poor thing about it"

same as with reefing in general. if we can provide good care, good hospice, then what's poor thing? "poor thin" is the fish suffering in the hands of ignorance or amateur mistakes.

that's why we have a forum, a place for learning. and the internet. a place for information. as well as books. abit archaic, but i still hit the books at times.

the internet is filled with information nowadays.

an average home hobbyist can have excess to information so easily nowadays. even the world famous fish scientists like randall, allen, tanaka, pyle all can be reached via facebook and email.

so there's no excuse for "not being able to find information". it's just people don't search hard enough, don't ask enough, don't put in enough effort.

so the blue-tang, IQ3, thompson plaza pushcart thing is well, in my opinion, a gimmick. a novelty created to lure impatient and impulsive buyers.

it's not illegal, just unethical. they are obviously tech-savvy enough to create a website, search google for pictures etc. but fail to search for the fundamentals of reefing.

so this is not ignorance at play. rather, selective searching.

and thanks for the compliment. i'm always happy to help out anyone with questions regarding fishes. it's just sometimes i get too overwhelmed with the same questions over and over again. i feel suffocated

[wilsontantw]

Brudder YK, fact is we have been "taught" to ask for answers. Not research for knowledge.

(I was from The System too).

Let the shop owner peddle his wares. We do what we do, and let him be. If fact if I am so serious, I'll rent a cart next to him and educate the public about marine keeping. See whether the public listens...

But of cos, I'm just your regular reefer with no such ambitions.

[yikai]

Brudder YK, fact is we have been "taught" to ask for answers. Not research for knowledge.

(I was from The System too).

Let the shop owner peddle his wares. We do what we do, and let him be. If fact if I am so serious, I'll rent a cart next to him and educate the public about marine keeping. See whether the public listens...

But of cos, I'm just your regular reefer with no such ambitions.

to each his own and i have no problem with asking questions too.

asking questions is better than not asking.

of course we can be pro-active too but that's different. it takes commitment to be very pro-active but many people are too busy with work, family everything. reefing is only a hobby. and i understand. perhaps i'm too free and too obsessed already. that's why i do so much research and expect others to do the same. (i apologize if i do come across like that)

some things are also learnt faster by asking questions. and i'm v happy everytime i receive a PM with a genuine question and the willingness to learn. feels good to help others.

but the general idea is that learning is very easy. either by research or by asking. whiever way you choose to do it is fine. just preference.

i'll be interested to see how this thompson plaza thing turn out eventually.

[wilsontantw]

Errr in case anyone feels offended by my post. I am purely stating my personal opinion and NOT targeting at any specific comments by anyone. In fact I have not read all the posts in the thread.

*decided to edit my post for sensitivity reasons*

Edited February 16, 2011 by wilsontantw

[iskay]

LOL, I just couldn't resist......

I recall seeing some news article regarding supermarkets being fuming mad about trolley thieves/borrowers.

Check this out...

[yikai]

LOL, I just couldn't resist......

I recall seeing some news article regarding supermarkets being fuming mad about trolley thieves/borrowers.

Check this out...

haha!

[wilsontantw]

Oooorrrrhhhhhh!!!!!

I vaguely remember that there's a Aunty Lucy (NTUC) in the said shopping mall.

[pokmingsheng]

its an 'experience' to hear answers to some of the questions i posted to them as a 'newbie'... i was really curious to know how much do they know about this hobby when i first saw them few months back... please dont ask me to share the Q&A here.. haha... go ask them yourselves