RSS Courageous

[pospeh]

Perhaps of the the RSN personnel can contribute to the causes of this accident, but from a layman's perspective, it seems to me that the RSN royally screwed up and caused the deaths of all those women.

I mean, if you have a state of the art equipped sub warfare vessel equipped with the latest radar and electronic gadgetry, you better well damn know where are all the ships around you. Plus if they were doing their job on the watch, they would have seen with the ###### eye from miles and miles away a ship the size of a football field coming at you in a night of normal visibility. If they can't see a ship tha size, how are they supposed to hunt for submarines?

The courses of the ships can be easily traced in the radar records of both ships and the onshore radar stations.

I think they should just admit it now instead of saying we have to "investigate" all the facts. Lets see what the crews of both ships have to say instead of imposing a news blackout.

I think head needs to roll on this.

[Achilles Tang]

I have a friend who was onboard the RSN ship. He had ###### cuts.

As an ex-Navy personnel... my heart goes out to the crew and the families of those women who died in this unfortunate accident.

I am sure the Officer of the Watch will be in deep shit for what happened as well as the Captain. Their careers are good as gone.

Not sure about my friend... am worried for him.

Let's wait and see before we pass judgement. I am sure there could be a lot of factors involved.

Those who have been there before knows how dangerous it can be and I have friends who had close shaves with tankers at night.

[Limpc]

eh AT, you were in NAVY ???

Me too.

When you ROD ?

Limpc

[Achilles Tang]

RODed in 1994.

What do they call it nowadays? RDO? ORD?

How about you?

I was serving NS then... rare to be in the naval service. Was a NMSS at shipwright dept in Pulau Brani, later transferred to Gombak for secret work at Naval Plans.

My secret work is now under water...

[philip]

ha ha its still ORD lah ...ROD is for pes E personnel who have no reservist lor... anyway my deepest condolences to the families of those deceased and involved personel, hope everything is ok for them

[Adrianli]

Hi

Do you know that out at sea without moonlight night you cant even see your hand right in front of you!!! It is damn dark out there!!!

Even electronic equipments will fail.

We have to wait for the report out b4 we can make any judgement.

[Achilles Tang]

My thoughts on the matter are that it may have been human error mostly on the RSN ship, natural forces at work and the slight possiblity of mechanical failure causing a poor/slow reaction in avoiding the situation.

1. The accident happened when it was close to midnight. The next shift may have already been about to replace the duty shift which must have been fatigued and anticipating the changeabout, making them relaxed and losing concentration... just being human.

2. The OOW may be aware of the traffic in the area and perhaps posted lookouts, who may have noted the approaching ship. However, at sea, in the dark, you will not have a very clear visual indication of how fast a ship may be approaching, whether it is gonna be bearing down on you directly or may be passing a few hundred meters alongside. You would have relied on surface radar for anti-collision alerts. The question... was it switched on or monitored diligently?

3. The ship may have turned off its water jets and may be stationary or even anchored to save fuel and to facilitate the shift changeover.

4. The currents may have moved the ship into the path of the ANL Indonesia. Unlike specialised ships eg. salvage ships or oil drilling ships, the RSS Courageous would not have a GPS computer controlling small propellers along the hull of the ship to remain in a stationary spot.

5. By the time it was noticed that a collision was imminent, it may have already been too late. Even at full throttle, it may have not even moved more than 10 metres away from that spot due to the strong water current and big swells. Perhaps, in the emergency, some vital equipment/engine component could have seized up, or jammed, causing a delay.

6. Perhaps it did moved away but wasn't fast enough to turn entirely away from the fast approaching hulk of the freighter. The aft was rammed. And the rest we know.

It was a credit that the ship did not sink inspite of losing the engine room and having two or three compartments flooded. Imagine the impact was big enough to break the mast.

Now why didn't the much bigger ship give way or even notice the smaller vessel? It is a well known fact that bigger ships are the bullies of the open sea. Smaller vessels (even those in the right of the way according to international law) are at their mercies constantly. Ask any fisherman or yacht... YOU avoid the big ships, don't expect them to turn for you. Don't even hope that they would have noticed you in the first place. Even if they did, they would expect YOU to give way to them.

Perhaps the captain told his crew to proceed, sayihg "they'll know how to move out of the way"... and by the time they got too close, it was already too late to swerve or stop. Even an emergency stop would have seen the ship taking a few shiplengths to slow down.

I feel sorry that 4 lives had to be lost in an accident such as this in the name of national defence, especially when they were also ladies.

[Creetin]

Pospeh, i second u on this! I think its simply unforgivable that the high-tech naval ship can come into such disaster, not from enemy attack but a giant tanker!

Someone, or some people, must be made responsible for this - 3 lives lost and 1 person unaccounted for. Really sad...

[Achilles Tang]

It has no bearing how hi-tech or low-tech your ship is when a giant tanker crashes into you... it was a navigational accident with human error most likely involved.

[Tanzy]

These MCVs are bullies themselves! Their speed and size gives them the biggest bow wave and wake of all the ships in the anchourages. If it isn't propulsion failure then the OOW must be involved, because the alarm would have sounded for an iminent collision.

My friend is a Superpuma pilot that is involved in the SAR now and TanGo might have something to add too.

[KingFish]

Its kinda unfair to pass any judgement as yet till we get some definite answers from authorities. Most of the naval personnel aren't talking, and I'm not about to probe into it.

I dunno guys, but instead of looking for someone to blame, I'd sincerely go the way of looking into ways to prevent accidents like this from happening again.

Like AT said, accidents do happen.

[Tanzy]

Collisions at sea are quite common, especially in the crowded waters of Singapore. It's only unfortunate that lives were lost and a military vessel was involved in this incident.

Following in the tradition of SAF, whatever the cause, as mentioned above, the Captain and OOW's careers are down the drain.

[Achilles Tang]

The RSS Courageous isn't a MCV. It's a Fearless class APV (anti-sub patrol vessel)

When I go fishing in that area or when I was working onboard our cruise ship (my previous job) and passed by Horsburg, it's always reassuring to see MCVs or MGBs around, especially when piracy was rampant in the past.

We never feared them. It was the tankers and freighters that were really scary.

[Creetin]

hmmmm den can the experts let me in on how the radar of a supposedly sophiscated ship fail to perform? also could be no one was aware of the radar alarm...

[Tanzy]

Sorry, thought it was a MCV. Always hated MCV cause they zoom around at high speeds. Once, one of them nearly capsized a whole platoon of boats. Another terror are the fastcrafts!

Small boats have no problem getting out of the way of slow moving freighters; the wake of a fast moving vessel is the thing to watch out for.

[Achilles Tang]

hmmmm den can the experts let me in on how the radar of a supposedly sophiscated ship fail to perform? also could be no one was aware of the radar alarm...

Let's wait for the investigations to conclude.

In the meantime, let's appreciate how precious life is.

[harlequin]

Hey AT,

Never knew you were in Gombak the same time as me.....

Me always hiding in Basement B*

[pospeh]

Yeah, accidents do happen, at both sea and in the roadways, and those are common occurrances.

But theoretically accidents like this are not supposed to happen . . . and if it does happen, something needs to be fixed right away. This is not a run-of-the-mill sailboat or a fishing vessel collision.

You have a military vessel staffed by professionals working with the latest technology costing tens of millions of dollars. When such vessels are on duty, it is the duty and the purpose of such vessels to keep track of other surface vessels in all weather conditions and at all times of day. Also it was in its own home waters so the Courageous should be very very familiar with the local conditions with respect to weather conditions and the shipping traffic patterns. If the waters could be so dangerous because of the large container ships, its the job of the captain to be extra careful and employ all the resources at his disposal to make sure nothing goes wrong.

The only logical conclusion is that someone was grossly negligent.

Assigning blame is all a part of the review process of finding out whats needs to be improved upon. . . and adding extra procedures to make sure that sometings like this doesn't happen again. And punishment does serve a useful deterrent effect on future captains that they must not be derelect in their duties to their country and to the men and women who serve under them. It also sends a message to the rank and file that command takes such things seriously and so boost morale.

AT gave a very good summary of the things that may have gone wrong in this type of collision after, I guess, less than a few hours of educated conjucture thought. I am sure the investigation is complicated, but we haven't heard anything from the authorities on the causes after more than 4 days of investigation. Why cant the authorties give us more information on what they have found so far. I mean the're treating this like its a state secret.

They have interviewed all the participants and have all the radar and communcations records. What other evidence do you need?

Even if the investigation is not yet finalized, give us something preliminary (hopefully tomorrow)

[LiveRock]

sigh.... 4 innocent lives, lost because of other people's mistake....

makes me wonder if the Navy 'Missile' TV Ad is really a mockery or irony....

[Achilles Tang]

Actually, if you consider the fact that our navy men & women are on 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, throughout the whole year, on constant patrol for long durations of time, through holidays and weekends, in cramped quarters, away from civilization, dealing with bad weather, holding onto plastic bags because you are throwing up due to sea-sickness and yet expected to perform tasks which require total concentration... it is a wonder that accidents like this occurs once in a blue moon.

We should not doubt the capabilities of our Navy just because of one accident.

[LiveRock]

Agree. I have full confidence that Singapore's defense is one of the best.

Its just that when I browse thru' this thread..., I am reminded of the Navy Ad, and there's a hint of irony in it.

Consider the number of tragedies that occured in road, train, air accidents, high traffic and weather conditions: statistically, something like this is bound to happen. Apparently, the laws of probability and entropy is at work

[Sinn]

outta point but just wanted to say it...

i almost had an accident just now...

tried to squeeze between a long vehicle and the bukit timah exit at PIE...

my car went to much to the left and it skidded cause of the sand by the road...

car went outta control ..

and was zig zaging for a while

damn scary man!!!

life could end in such an instant....

[Tanzy]

Sinn,

I don't think so. Cars are pretty safe nowadays. You probably get bruises from being hit by airbags instead.

[shiokmc]

to our sisters-in-arms..... may they rest in peace .... they hav lost their Lives in the course of serving our Nation....

As for contributing factors..... there are endless possibilities..... i know how dark it can get @ nite.... how Machine may fail... how Man may 'shut down'... as an Armour Tankee.... i have personally experienced and have seen such incidents before [ to armour vehicles....] ...... we should not pin the Blame on anyone yet..... ships sink..tanks overturn... 3tonners flip.... bridges collapse.... all part n parcel of Operational readiness.... all part of the Learning process... n training process.....

While we await the results of the on-going investigations..... let us bow our heads n wish our Sisters well in their Journey after Life....

[TanGo]

Sorry for the late postings..

Been busy with the events..

Ok.. Been reading the threads..

ROR (Rules of the Road) one of it states that we have to give way to military vessels.. Applies to everyone...

When your ship is so close to a lighthouse, even while changing shift, lookouts should be vigilant..

The tanker is charging at full speed.. And it's not out in open ocean yet..

All radars have a safety perimeter setting.. And a warning will be giving if there is a ship heading your way..

What I see probably is maybe the tanker made a last minute sharp turn according to the auto piloting system.. which when the navy ship saw or realise and was too late to react to..

As for the salvaging of the rest of the ship, it's in progress now.. But due to the weather and strong currents, no dives were done yet..