Possibility of over lighting

[vidextreme]

Greetings reefers!

I'm doing some research on what type of lighting I should be using for my FIRST ever reef tank. (obviously I'm a newb in this topic so feel free to blow the whistle and intervine in my errors)

I came across this research paper that seems to be unrelated to reef keeping at first. Its about having the right μmol m-2 s-1 or PPF for efficient plant growth.

FYI: μmol m-2 s-1 or PPF (Photosynthetic Photon Flux) that can be converted to lux (luminance and illuminance emitance) which is easier/more common unit/space for light intensity.

Here's the research paper

Based from this paper, plants placed on a in vitro environment differs growth and foliage amount with the different intensity of lights. The paper tested each vitros in 28, 37, 56, 74 and 93 μmol m-2 s-1 (about 1,500, 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 and 5,000 lux). What caught my attention is that result was not linear, rather a paraboloid spectrum as the PPF increases. It seems that 28 and 93 has the lowest growth and foliage development. 74 has the highest leaf coverage but 37 has the better height and foliage amount growth. The conclusion is that what matters to plant growth is how vast and strong the light intensity is but rather HAVING THE RIGHT amount of light intensity.

Now you may ask whats the connection of this to reef keeping? Here comes my hypothesis, if corals is dependent on sunlight because of the vital symbiotic relationship to specific type of sun-loving algae living some within the tissue of corals (some free floats such as zooplanktons), and if algae works/feeds/thrives on the same photosynthesis process as plants do, can we also consider that these algae would have the same reaction and limitation when exposed to a spectrum of light that can also have a reversing effect because of over lighting or too much light intensity?

Any comments or drastic reactions? (hides under a rock )

[wilsontantw]

??? Can someone translate that into English for me???

Hahaha... just kidding... This is too scientific for me..

But it's good u highlight this, I'm sure some lighting experts can contribute further.

Gosh, where do u guys learn all these??

[vidextreme]

Just a correction, I should have said Phytoplankton(plant/algae planktons) not Zooplankton (animal planktons).

[vidextreme]

??? Can someone translate that into English for me???

Hahaha... just kidding... This is too scientific for me..

But it's good u highlight this, I'm sure some lighting experts can contribute further.

Gosh, where do u guys learn all these??

This is how we can learn -> hahahha...

This just occurred to me, if the major use of good lighting for coral reefs in tank is to help micro algae within the its skin/body or planktons(microorganism floating in the water) to survive with photosynthesis and then these serve as food for the corals, then could it be using algae killer, too efficient physical filters and too frequent water change can also be as harmful as having a poor light source in a reef tank?

[yikai]

Greetings reefers!

I'm doing some research on what type of lighting I should be using for my FIRST ever reef tank. (obviously I'm a newb in this topic so feel free to blow the whistle and intervine in my errors)

I came across this research paper that seems to be unrelated to reef keeping at first. Its about having the right μmol m-2 s-1 or PPF for efficient plant growth.

FYI: μmol m-2 s-1 or PPF (Photosynthetic Photon Flux) that can be converted to lux (luminance and illuminance emitance) which is easier/more common unit/space for light intensity.

Here's the research paper

Based from this paper, plants placed on a in vitro environment differs growth and foliage amount with the different intensity of lights. The paper tested each vitros in 28, 37, 56, 74 and 93 μmol m-2 s-1 (about 1,500, 2,000, 3,000, 4,000 and 5,000 lux). What caught my attention is that result was not linear, rather a paraboloid spectrum as the PPF increases. It seems that 28 and 93 has the lowest growth and foliage development. 74 has the highest leaf coverage but 37 has the better height and foliage amount growth. The conclusion is that what matters to plant growth is how vast and strong the light intensity is but rather HAVING THE RIGHT amount of light intensity.

Now you may ask whats the connection of this to reef keeping? Here comes my hypothesis, if corals is dependent on sunlight because of the vital symbiotic relationship to specific type of sun-loving algae living some within the tissue of corals (some free floats such as zooplanktons), and if algae works/feeds/thrives on the same photosynthesis process as plants do, can we also consider that these algae would have the same reaction and limitation when exposed to a spectrum of light that can also have a reversing effect because of over lighting or too much light intensity?

Any comments or drastic reactions? (hides under a rock )

of course.

based on a rough read through of the abstract, it makes plenty of sense.

too little light is bad and too much light is bad. however, plant keeping and reef keeping should not be followed identically but rather, a guideline.

photosynthetic terrestrial plants photosynthesize either using C3, C4, or CAM pathway. C3 and C4 pathways are used by C3 and C4 plants while CAM pathway are used for desert plants living in dry environment.

Land plants also make use of the Z-scheme (electron transport chain) as the first stage of photosynthesis to convert light energy to adenosine triphosphate and NADPH

These two compounds are used for photosynthesis in the 2nd step.

what goes on inside algae and zooxanthellae may be similar, exactly the same, or completely different. i don't know how it works in marine algae and zooxanthellae so i cannot advice you on this and i'm very sure no one else here can too.

so first thing's first, identify the mechanism of photosynthesis in marine algae and more specifically, the zooxanthellae symbiotic algae within corals first. then compare this to photosynthesis in land plants. if exactly the same, then the above abstract can be applied.

also, PAR, spectrum, temperature everything plays a part too. it's a very complex ideology and needs plenty of research.

Hope this helps

[allantang]

very "deep" O.O

[vidextreme]

of course.

based on a rough read through of the abstract, it makes plenty of sense.

too little light is bad and too much light is bad. however, plant keeping and reef keeping should not be followed identically but rather, a guideline.

photosynthetic terrestrial plants photosynthesize either using C3, C4, or CAM pathway. C3 and C4 pathways are used by C3 and C4 plants while CAM pathway are used for desert plants living in dry environment.

Land plants also make use of the Z-scheme (electron transport chain) as the first stage of photosynthesis to convert light energy to adenosine triphosphate and NADPH

These two compounds are used for photosynthesis in the 2nd step.

what goes on inside algae and zooxanthellae may be similar, exactly the same, or completely different. i don't know how it works in marine algae and zooxanthellae so i cannot advice you on this and i'm very sure no one else here can too.

so first thing's first, identify the mechanism of photosynthesis in marine algae and more specifically, the zooxanthellae symbiotic algae within corals first. then compare this to photosynthesis in land plants. if exactly the same, then the above abstract can be applied.

also, PAR, spectrum, temperature everything plays a part too. it's a very complex ideology and needs plenty of research.

Hope this helps

Hi LemonLemon,

That was fascinating! Thanks for adding this information. I totally agree we must first identify these helpful algae and their photosynthetic mechanism.

In the light of the discussion, if I may throw a guessing question... if a specific coral has good supply of algae/zooplanktons for food and dissolved calcium can it survive even without sunlight? Or do corals have other use for sunlight aside for their symbiotes?

Regarding phytoplankton (plant-like-planktons) and zooplanktons (animal planktons), I get the feeling now that doing excessive mechanical water filtration and water changes can also harm the reef by removing those microbes.

[yikai]

Hi LemonLemon,

That was fascinating! Thanks for adding this information. I totally agree we must first identify these helpful algae and their photosynthetic mechanism.

In the light of the discussion, if I may throw a guessing question... if a specific coral has good supply of algae/zooplanktons for food and dissolved calcium can it survive even without sunlight? Or do corals have other use for sunlight aside for their symbiotes?

Regarding phytoplankton (plant-like-planktons) and zooplanktons (animal planktons), I get the feeling now that doing excessive mechanical water filtration and water changes can also harm the reef by removing those microbes.

no cannot.

the coral has symbiotic algae living within the coral's tissues. the algae is called zooxanthellae. zooxanthellae uses sunlight to produce sugars and food. the food feeds the algae itself and the coral too. the coral requires supplemental feedings from other planktonic stuff in the water column, eg, zooplankton, phytoplankton etc.

without sunlight, zooxanthallae will die. zooxanthellae die means the coral tissues will not be able to survive since they lost major food supply. sometimes if lighting is too much or too little or coral experience other stress factors, the tissues bail out the zooxanthellae and the coral becomes white. this is known as bleaching. in such cases, the coral dies very easily.

yes filtering of seawater removes plankton. that is why if you keep non-photosynthetic corals that rely 100% on plankton for food in a tank with filtered seawater, it cannot survive. you will need to manually feed planktonic food for it's survival.

[vidextreme]

no cannot.

the coral has symbiotic algae living within the coral's tissues. the algae is called zooxanthellae. zooxanthellae uses sunlight to produce sugars and food. the food feeds the algae itself and the coral too. the coral requires supplemental feedings from other planktonic stuff in the water column, eg, zooplankton, phytoplankton etc.

without sunlight, zooxanthallae will die. zooxanthellae die means the coral tissues will not be able to survive since they lost major food supply. sometimes if lighting is too much or too little or coral experience other stress factors, the tissues bail out the zooxanthellae and the coral becomes white. this is known as bleaching. in such cases, the coral dies very easily.

yes filtering of seawater removes plankton. that is why if you keep non-photosynthetic corals that rely 100% on plankton for food in a tank with filtered seawater, it cannot survive. you will need to manually feed planktonic food for it's survival.

That's clear as 'daylight'. Thanks! I personally saw coral 'bleaching' in action in some places I snorkel, it was horrible. Increasing water depth and ocean acidification are to blame including us, humans.

[yikai]

That's clear as 'daylight'. Thanks! I personally saw coral 'bleaching' in action in some places I snorkel, it was horrible. Increasing water depth and ocean acidification are to blame including us, humans.

yes well it's been fun talking about something so intellectual at this time of the night.

keeps your brain juices flowing.

i've always been a big fish geek but it's nice to talk about light for a change

and nice daylight pun! hehe.

[vidextreme]

yes well it's been fun talking about something so intellectual at this time of the night.

keeps your brain juices flowing.

i've always been a big fish geek but it's nice to talk about light for a change

and nice daylight pun! hehe.

Just to let you know my friend, I'm doing some intensive reading (behind my boss' back) while @ office regarding photosynthesis of different types of algae.

Oh just for a snip-bits, did you know that blue light helps carotenoid pigments(red pigments) contained in algae to form good protection membrane against over photon exposures? This just to show that its not only intensity that is important but also light color(or frequency).

[DUCADOS]

very "deep" O.O

ya ''chim'' lol

[yikai]

Just to let you know my friend, I'm doing some intensive reading (behind my boss' back) while @ office regarding photosynthesis of different types of algae.

Oh just for a snip-bits, did you know that blue light helps carotenoid pigments(red pigments) contained in algae to form good protection membrane against over photon exposures? This just to show that its not only intensity that is important but also light color(or frequency).

yes yes this is true for most parts.

photosynthesis works best under blue and red light spectrums.

works least in green as green spectrum is reflected back. thus chlorophyll and chloroplast appears green.

[DUCADOS]

Didn't know about the above mentioned by lemon.

Now I know haha. Learned new thing.

[dreamlover]

ya ''chim'' lol

"Blur Blur now"

[DUCADOS]

"Blur Blur now"

lol... U too ah?

[Ethanboy]

of course.

based on a rough read through of the abstract, it makes plenty of sense.

too little light is bad and too much light is bad. however, plant keeping and reef keeping should not be followed identically but rather, a guideline.

photosynthetic terrestrial plants photosynthesize either using C3, C4, or CAM pathway. C3 and C4 pathways are used by C3 and C4 plants while CAM pathway are used for desert plants living in dry environment.

Land plants also make use of the Z-scheme (electron transport chain) as the first stage of photosynthesis to convert light energy to adenosine triphosphate and NADPH

These two compounds are used for photosynthesis in the 2nd step.

what goes on inside algae and zooxanthellae may be similar, exactly the same, or completely different. i don't know how it works in marine algae and zooxanthellae so i cannot advice you on this and i'm very sure no one else here can too.

so first thing's first, identify the mechanism of photosynthesis in marine algae and more specifically, the zooxanthellae symbiotic algae within corals first. then compare this to photosynthesis in land plants. if exactly the same, then the above abstract can be applied.

also, PAR, spectrum, temperature everything plays a part too. it's a very complex ideology and needs plenty of research.

Hope this helps

1 word,

"cheemology"!

[FuEl]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2006/8/aafeature

"photoinhibition is reduced at higher flow speeds but they also showed that at high light intensities and low flow speeds, photodamage of the coral symbionts is amplified which in turn makes corals more sensitive to light and temperature extremes."

Water flow is important to help corals adapt to higher than normal light intensities.

[allantang]

erm.. so as a guide to layman like me.. if my corals is doing well in a given light n water flow rate. i should leave my corals alone(in terms of position) right?