Milch's Reef Learning Journey

[Milch_Tan]

Haven't been updating this for some time now, this is week 8 of the cycling period, did some water change, in week 4 had a structure collapse when I was trying to apply the epoxy to the rocks, but took the opportunity to do a minor rescape

Will stock up on on corals first then fishes.. most likely introduce fishes either in Aug or Sep, so in the mean while hope to seed Reefpods from Fauna Supplies

[Milch_Tan]

some other angles

[jackywongto]

you cycle for 8 weeks Milch???

[Milch_Tan]

sorry to bore you guys with just rocks, but here's my very first zoa i bidded from dream loverz just into the 20th min of opening since T5 was on. pardon the lousy camera skills and camera too and a shot of sandy tornado~

[Milch_Tan]

my sump, kinda fill it up with dead rocks and this is where i'll be seeding the reefpods @ hopefully they'll culture,

thanks to bro Gouldian's suggestion for place DR in sump for culturing becteria! else those DR could have been still outside my house sunning

[Milch_Tan]

you cycle for 8 weeks Milch???

Heya bro Jacky, yeap, those pix posted on 10th May was actually posted 1 week after i've filled up the water, so actual DOB for my tank is 04/05/2010 how fast the weeks just fly pass haha.

[jackywongto]

Heya bro Jacky, yeap, those pix posted on 10th May was actually posted 1 week after i've filled up the water, so actual DOB for my tank is 04/05/2010 how fast the weeks just fly pass haha.

you are busy or you are intentionally cycling it for 8 weeks? really curious...

[Milch_Tan]

Pls feel free to give your comments on areas of anything i should careful of, or any ideas for coral placements too, still very lack of experience. thanks!

[Milch_Tan]

you are busy or you are intentionally cycling it for 8 weeks? really curious...

my first smaller tank was cycled for bout 4 weeks, so this time around I set out to cycle for 6-8 weeks. Read up quite a bit on the forum threads here bout cycling, also in bro Nitro's thread where he posted his experience bout cycling..

" Posted 07 June 2010 - 01:28 PM

Been a long time since I last updated here. Lessons learnt in this upgrading so far...

1) Cycling of tank is def a must do regardless if one is using old live-rocks/sand with added new rocks/sand or dosing of beneficial bacteria.

2) Cycling duration must be at least 3-6 months if one wants a successful setup on the first time, every time basis. Usually days or weeks of a quick set-up can still be done but success rate of all the fishes surviving will be slim or zero!

3) Adding of new LS to the existing LS must be done slowly or best if left till the 3-6 months cycling is over.

The above 3 points are based on the re-using of old LR/sand adding with new LR/sand ("Live" sand or any marine sand) and even if "aged" water is used. Of cse with the used of "Live" sand, it does hasten the establishing of the eco system."

and the basic message is longer cycle = better environment for fishes/corals, anyway can also help save on electrical bills too. Will delay the intro of fish to prevent contamination of water, wanna raise more pods too!

[yikai]

very exquisite rock scape.

and well done on cycling for 8 weeks. the longer the better. there's no such thing as cycling for too long! well done and kudos on your patience!

[Milch_Tan]

very exquisite rock scape.

and well done on cycling for 8 weeks. the longer the better. there's no such thing as cycling for too long! well done and kudos on your patience!

Thanks dude, your reply to my PM on Market prawn sure helped me and the cycling article was just what I needed back then. Your tank will be a spectacle man!, saw your fish-in-waiting, it's droolsome esp. that roseafascia !

[jem]

really awesome rockscape..

once coralline starts to grow all over it will be perfect!.

good choice on the skimmer to aid in the barebottom decision.

with all those dead rocks in the sump..

your monster skimmer must be pulling out a huge amount of gunk!

admire your patience to cycle the tank..

[yikai]

Thanks dude, your reply to my PM on Market prawn sure helped me and the cycling article was just what I needed back then. Your tank will be a spectacle man!, saw your fish-in-waiting, it's droolsome esp. that roseafascia !

thank you. yes hope my roseafascia will serve me well as a spectacular fish. very very rare.

[jackywongto]

my first smaller tank was cycled for bout 4 weeks, so this time around I set out to cycle for 6-8 weeks. Read up quite a bit on the forum threads here bout cycling, also in bro Nitro's thread where he posted his experience bout cycling..

" Posted 07 June 2010 - 01:28 PM

Been a long time since I last updated here. Lessons learnt in this upgrading so far...

1) Cycling of tank is def a must do regardless if one is using old live-rocks/sand with added new rocks/sand or dosing of beneficial bacteria.

2) Cycling duration must be at least 3-6 months if one wants a successful setup on the first time, every time basis. Usually days or weeks of a quick set-up can still be done but success rate of all the fishes surviving will be slim or zero!

3) Adding of new LS to the existing LS must be done slowly or best if left till the 3-6 months cycling is over.

The above 3 points are based on the re-using of old LR/sand adding with new LR/sand ("Live" sand or any marine sand) and even if "aged" water is used. Of cse with the used of "Live" sand, it does hasten the establishing of the eco system."

and the basic message is longer cycle = better environment for fishes/corals, anyway can also help save on electrical bills too. Will delay the intro of fish to prevent contamination of water, wanna raise more pods too!

Bro... keep us posted on your progress .... As I understand it, the purpose of cycling is to let the tank stabilize, let the beneficial bacteria colonize and nitrogen cycle to complete after introducing ammonia (either market prawn or heaps of fish food) into the tank. Now the cycle takes about 4 weeks.... after which the tank is ready. Now assuming that you are not doing anything and just let the tank run by itself empty... the beneficial bacterial having no "food" to consume... will die off and slowly decimate in numbers....... so after a couple of months, the bacteria count probably drastically which then might defeat the purpose of cycling.

That is why for prodibio bioclean, there is a vial of biodigest and a vial of biotim. Biotim is food for the bacteria and needs to be introduced to the tank 1 week after biodigest is added.

So is cycling for 3- 6 months really good for the tank.... personally I am doubtful unless if you do it correctly. Nothing beats having some fishes after the cycle period to create the ecological balance in the tank.

[Milch_Tan]

ic, thanks for the expert pointers jacky, maybe my weekly dosing of bacteria and some dosing of phytoplankton/zooplankton ain't enough then, either way, thanks for your pin point comments, keep it coming. will be sure to read up on your tank thread to replicate your beautiful tank.

[Milch_Tan]

really awesome rockscape..

once coralline starts to grow all over it will be perfect!.

good choice on the skimmer to aid in the barebottom decision.

with all those dead rocks in the sump..

your monster skimmer must be pulling out a huge amount of gunk!

admire your patience to cycle the tank..

Hey there Jem, thanks! yeah realize after installing the CR (Thanks to bro Thomas_Lim for teaching)! coralline seems to be growing faster! hmm surprisingly, there's not as much gunk as I expected.

I'm sure there are many more situations that demands more patience from us, ie . our other-half's bombarding of our hobby, or unjust bosses/lecturers etc. haha.

[yikai]

bacteria population won't crash after weeks of cycling. you don't have to worry about that.

bacterial growth goes through a few phases. if you study microbiology you will know.

the lag phase, the log phase, stationary phase and the death phase.

when you first start your tank, introduce liverock etc, the bacteria is at lag phase. this means they don't do anything as they get used to the tank.

once gotten used to your tank, they being the log phase. where (by now your ammonia would have accumulated,), they drastically feed on your ammonia and population explodes exponentially or logarithmically. thus, log phase.

after log phase, bacteria growth will be same to nutrient export. thus a balance will be created. this is called stationary phase. where the number of death = number of growth.

death phase will only occur when the system is devoid of nutrients and the bacteria will start dying out 1 by 1.

in our taanks, a stable eco-system is established, there fore majority of the bacteria after cycling are at stationary phase.

when you add fish again and there's bioload produced, the bacteria momentarily enter log phase and then to stationary phase again.

you don't have to worry about food for the bacteria. there will always be living things in your liverocks and so long as there are living things, metabolic waste will be produced and your bacteria will feed on it.the amount however, will control which phase the bacteria is at, but never at death phase.

cycling for long time also increase pod count which is good.

[jackywongto]

These days .... really goggle http://en.wikipedia....acterial_growth

Something I do not understand

=> death phase will only occur when the system is devoid of nutrients

=> you don't have to worry about food for the bacteria. there will always be living things in your liverocks and so long as there are living things, metabolic waste will be produced and your bacteria will feed on it.the amount however, will control which phase the bacteria is at, but never at death phase.

Questionable points:

1) how much livings things are in liverocks and how much waste are produced - unknown

2) how much bacterial can be sustained with these waste?

3) so in stationary phase, there will never be a lack of nutrients for the bacterial and they will never die?

Assuming your logic is true, then does that mean that if we throw in more more market prawns (100g lets say) to cycle the tank. After 6 -8 months, there are a huge colony of bacteria colonized and are in stationary phase....=> I can start adding large number of large fishes without concern cause the bacteria are already populated there to handle the added fishes waste?

I doubt this is true cause when you add fishes, the bioload is different and a mini cycling need to take place again......

which takes me back to my point.... cycling is a continuous process. when you increase bioload, it will run a cycle again.....

you can cycle the tank for 6 months, but when you add fishes that goes beyond your bioload threashold, a mini cycle will happen.

this happens for a tank that is cycled 1 month, 3 months or 6 months.

but i do agree that prolong period of cycling = good for pods reproduction as long as they are fed.

[jackywongto]

ic, thanks for the expert pointers jacky, maybe my weekly dosing of bacteria and some dosing of phytoplankton/zooplankton ain't enough then, either way, thanks for your pin point comments, keep it coming. will be sure to read up on your tank thread to replicate your beautiful tank.

lol bro... me no expert lah. Just a reefer like you.

Lemon, Fuel, CFoh, Terryz etc.... these are the established experts who know better.....

just sharing thoughts and learning from your thread.

but don't take my words seriously hor..... I am throwing out just idealogies most of the time......

maybe just consider them as just some food for thoughts.

[yikai]

These days .... really goggle http://en.wikipedia....acterial_growth

Something I do not understand

=> death phase will only occur when the system is devoid of nutrients

=> you don't have to worry about food for the bacteria. there will always be living things in your liverocks and so long as there are living things, metabolic waste will be produced and your bacteria will feed on it.the amount however, will control which phase the bacteria is at, but never at death phase.

Questionable points:

1) how much livings things are in liverocks and how much waste are produced - unknown

2) how much bacterial can be sustained with these waste?

3) so in stationary phase, there will never be a lack of nutrients for the bacterial and they will never die?

Assuming your logic is true, then does that mean that if we throw in more more market prawns (100g lets say) to cycle the tank. After 6 -8 months, there are a huge colony of bacteria colonized and are in stationary phase....=> I can start adding large number of large fishes without concern cause the bacteria are already populated there to handle the added fishes waste?

I doubt this is true cause when you add fishes, the bioload is different and a mini cycling need to take place again......

which takes me back to my point.... cycling is a continuous process. when you increase bioload, it will run a cycle again.....

you can cycle the tank for 6 months, but when you add fishes that goes beyond your bioload threashold, a mini cycle will happen.

this happens for a tank that is cycled 1 month, 3 months or 6 months.

but i do agree that prolong period of cycling = good for pods reproduction as long as they are fed.

the phases of bacterial growth are not constant like as in the growth of a human.

hmm... we cannot say at month 3, the bacteria is in stationary phase, at month 1 the bacteria is in lag phase. doesn't work like this. there can be many cycles going on at any period of time. at month 3 there could be new lag phase starting as new bacteria are being introduced, could be from air could be from dust (oh yes, nitrosoma sp. can be found in air too). but at month 3 there could also be stationary phase existing from the previous bacterial batch.

this phases are also directly related to the growth of microfauna around the bacteria. i.e, whatever grows on your rocks is related to what the bacteria goes through. there are much more living things in a liverock than you can see. and it doesn't take much for a bacteria cell to survive. in reality, bacterial cells require very little sustenance to be kept alive. it is only when we culture them on nutrient rich media that they proliferate like crazy. death phase rarely occurs in nature or in our tanks, because there is always a continuous supply of food from the surrounding ecosystem. it's a matter of enough to grow or not. death phase is a term very commonly used in industrial bacterial growth. where you give them a fixed amount of nutrient you control and they just eat and grow until they expire all, and die. this is very unlikely to happen in our tanks

but in actual fact, they can stay alive with minimal nutrients. this is when they are in stationary phase. meaning their uptake of nutrients is just enough to keep them alive and they can go on like this, so long as the minimal nutrient requirement is met for every bacteria.

of course, many will die, but a large population will remain alive. a few weeks over the normal cycling isn't enough to completely decimate bacteria colony till death phase. that's why 8 week cycling (only 4 weeks above the normal cycling time), is still very young and will not harm bacterial colonies at all.

but if we talk about 1 year, or more, than yes, probably. i don't know too.

in a rock only tank, bacteria are just surviving on minimal fuel, thhus at stationary phase, when you add in livestock, ammonia build up, and the bacteria temporarily goes into log phase again. this is what i said in my previous post.

yes you are right. everytime you add in a livestock, it goes into a mini-cycle. but the reasoning behind it is wrong. no matter how long you cycle, be it 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 4 years, 10 years, you still have to slowly add in livestock, to slowly let the bacteria colonies handle your bioload wether they are established or not.

so then, it doesn't really matter if u cycle for 4 weeks or 8 weeks. at the end of the day, you still have to add in livestock slowly. but you have an added advantage at week 8 of cycling because you have pods there, and you have a good continuous supply of bacteria in the different phases

[jackywongto]

Yup. Then we are in line Lemon.

I agree with your latest post.

[Terryz_]

All these Biology lesson are giving me headache... All I know and keep in mind is, Ammonia and Nitrite zero.. Can stock liao...

As for the bacteria population in the tank, bacteria reproduce and die in the tank... It is not possible that all the bacteria will die leaving your tank "bacterialess". As long as there are living things in the tank(Even bacteria) the bacteria population is there but whether it can handle more bioload from your fishes.. So stocking slow is the key, the bacteria can slowly grow in population and handle the new amount of waste...

[yikai]

All these Biology lesson are giving me headache... All I know and keep in mind is, Ammonia and Nitrite zero.. Can stock liao...

As for the bacteria population in the tank, bacteria reproduce and die in the tank... It is not possible that all the bacteria will die leaving your tank "bacterialess". As long as there are living things in the tank(Even bacteria) the bacteria population is there but whether it can handle more bioload from your fishes.. So stocking slow is the key, the bacteria can slowly grow in population and handle the new amount of waste...

bingo. exactly word for word what i'm trying to prove in simple english LOL

[Terryz_]

bingo. exactly word for word what i'm trying to prove in simple english LOL

Simple English easier for new reefer to understand mah... LOL...

[jackywongto]

All these Biology lesson are giving me headache... All I know and keep in mind is, Ammonia and Nitrite zero.. Can stock liao...

As for the bacteria population in the tank, bacteria reproduce and die in the tank... It is not possible that all the bacteria will die leaving your tank "bacterialess". As long as there are living things in the tank(Even bacteria) the bacteria population is there but whether it can handle more bioload from your fishes.. So stocking slow is the key, the bacteria can slowly grow in population and handle the new amount of waste...

yup. I think everyone is established on this fact now....

now the next million dollar question is.... Is there a difference cycling 1-2 month or cycling 3-6 months?