SPS and angels/butterflies

[yikai]

I think a decent thread like this one should put ease to all the "omg my angel/butterfly is nipping my SPS. help help helpzz !!11!!one"

First, let us look at the basic structure of small polyp stony corals (SPS). SPS are calcerous corals with little "holes" where the polyps are found in. These polyps are small, hence the term SPS. Polyps comprises of tentacles, more than 1 usually, to capture food particle.

Will butterflyfishes and angelfishes nip on your beloved acropora colonies? Chances are, yes. At the end of the day however, damage done to the coral is minimal or negligible. Unlike damage done to LPS. There's a reason for it. I'm getting to it

When angels/butterflies nip on your SPS, polyp extension will be compromised. Which is normal. However, polyps do and will extend at night when the fishes are asleep. If you're not a fan of closed polyps in the day, angels and butterflies are not for you. It's a small price to pay IMO if you are keeping these beautiful fishes. They are, the most colourful family of fishes in the sea IMO. The angels and butterflies.

Polyps will also extend in areas where these fishes cannot reach. I.e, deep within the colony. SPS grow in branches and can be a hindrance to these fishes to reach the polyps within. What's the bonus for this? Many SPS harbor brilliantly coloured flesh, but when the polyps extend, the entire coral is shrouded in brown. I'm not a SPS keeper, but imagine your glorious blue millie being shrouded in long wavy BROWN polyps. Not very nice right? Angels and butterflies help keep these polyps retracted, which shows off the beautiful blue colour of the millie. This doesn't harm the SPS. Photosynthesis of zooxanthellae can and will still occur. Polyp extension occurs in areas where the fishes can't reach, and at night.

How much exactly, is the coral being harmed? Truth is, not much. Take a close look the next time your dwarf angel nips at your SPS. The majority that is being nipped off is the SPS slime. Not the polyp itself.

Also, even if the fish wanted to nip the polyps out, it cannot. Realise that very few fishes have to ability to actually nip the polyp out of the little "holes" in the skeleton that I mentioned earlier. Why? In order to do this, fishes must have a specialized mouth to suck out the polyps from the SPS. One example is Chaetodon ornatissimus, the ornate butterflyfish, which is an obligate coralivore. These fishes that feed on nothing but coral polyps have special jaws to remove polyps. Our run of the mill dwarf angels and most butterflies are not primary polyp feeders, and thus, are lucky to even nip part of a tentacle from a single polyp. Imagine a 5 tentacle polyp. The fish will be lucky to nip a part, of ONE tentacle of ONE polyp. That's how hard it is for them.

So the next time you see your angel or butterfly nipping on your SPS, take a closer look. You will notice that not much is being removed. However there are out of the norm cases, as most of us would know by now. So take this advice with a pinch of salt and should only serve as a guideline

This write up is based on the artile on GBD.

reference here http://glassbox-design.com/2009/polyp-nipping-and-sps-its-only-natural/

[Terryz_]

Nice writeup... Very good for reefers who wants to keep SPS with Angels and Butterflies...

But the nipping does stress the SPS if not wrong which will cause them to turn brown...

[yikai]

Nice writeup... Very good for reefers who wants to keep SPS with Angels and Butterflies...

But the nipping does stress the SPS if not wrong which will cause them to turn brown...

the good thing is, most angels and butterflies will not nip on the SPS the whole day constantly. if you notice dwarf angels, or even big pomcanthus sp., they swim and take a nip or two, and then continue on their voyage.

a good example will be iwarna's heavily stocked angel and SPS tank. colours are still holding up well even though there are no polyp extension. and the angels don't nip constantly.

[Terryz_]

Yup, True... Anyway I wun be keeping SPS... Haha.. So no problem... As long as they dun nip on my zoas next time..

[yikai]

i'm keeping softies with some LPS, so it doesnt bother me. nice to see the declivis taking nips at sinularia and sarcophyton, then spitting out and shaking its head. probably saying YUCKS! so noxious. bo ho jiak. haha

[Terryz_]

i'm keeping softies with some LPS, so it doesnt bother me. nice to see the declivis taking nips at sinularia and sarcophyton, then spitting out and shaking its head. probably saying YUCKS! so noxious. bo ho jiak. haha

Haha, I guess that is a way that we can prevent the Angels/Butterflies from taking a chance with corals... Haha///

[Dispar_Anthias]

I guess, I am one who keep most angels with different species of corals. I can say that most angel leaves the corals alone and do not recognise them as food. Nipping ard is usually only done once or twice out of curiosity and after that the fish will continue its vouyage.

I am kept centropyge, deep water chaetodon, chaetodontoplus, apolemicthys, holcanthus and pomacanthus in various tanks. Only the holcanthus and pomacanthus species of angel show some interest towards corals usually the fleshy LPS

[yikai]

I guess, I am one who keep most angels with different species of corals. I can say that most angel leaves the corals alone and do not recognise them as food. Nipping ard is usually only done once or twice out of curiosity and after that the fish will continue its vouyage.

I am kept centropyge, deep water chaetodon, chaetodontoplus, apolemicthys, holcanthus and pomacanthus in various tanks. Only the holcanthus and pomacanthus species of angel show some interest towards corals usually the fleshy LPS

agreed with the above. the genuses u mentioned are all non primary coral eating groups but holacanthus and pomcanthus are famous for their itchy mouths.

[MarcoVan]

sweet!

[yikai]

Have pinned this topic up. Please read it. it will help answer questions like "is flame angel reef safe" or what angel reef safe. even if yes/no, just read. at least you get a rough idea.

[Jameshong]

Good topic and excellence write up !

[TayHongSiang]

is it safe to keep angels like emperor, queen, annularis with freshy n juicy LPS like brains and pratas?

[yikai]

is it safe to keep angels like emperor, queen, annularis with freshy n juicy LPS like brains and pratas?

safely say, nope. but there's a reason, and there are triggers to make them go crazy for fleshy LPS. will write an article about it soon

[Digiman]

safely say, nope. but there's a reason, and there are triggers to make them go crazy for fleshy LPS. will write an article about it soon

Holacanthus has very strong mouth. They're more destructive than other angels. My 14 inch queen angel use to be able to bite of big chunks off the live rocks and crush it to tiny pieces.

There're many triggers that will not touch corals at all. Like bluethroat and crosshatch. They move liverocks however and will topple your rockscapes.

[yikai]

Holacanthus has very strong mouth. They're more destructive than other angels. My 14 inch queen angel use to be able to bite of big chunks off the live rocks and crush it to tiny pieces.

There're many triggers that will not touch corals at all. Like bluethroat and crosshatch. They move liverocks however and will topple your rockscapes.

not suprising. have seen queen angels rip off large chunks of lobos and pratas, sometimes even breaking the calcium skeleton beneath. it's safe to say that holacanthus sp. and pomacanthus sp are not safe with LPS. but it's a different story with SPS. they are usually very safe and don't bother SPS much.

[dreamlover]

is it safe to keep angels like emperor, queen, annularis with freshy n juicy LPS like brains and pratas?

Haha coral sure byebye.

[damsel-in-distress]

I wld like to share my experience on the Copperband Butterfly which I just introduced into my tank. Its quite a beautiful specimen (a 4.5" Australian Chelmon Rostratus) recently bought from a fellow reefer. It was introduced last Sun. As I was told it had been feeding on mysis shrimp, I tried that but it has refused to eat. Actually, I did see it suck in a bit but it seem to spit it out!

It looked like it was looking for food among the rocks & I thought great, it will be demolishing the aiptasia which is why I got it in the 1st place .. but not so much!! The Copperband has started nipping on my LPS, mainly the brains & pratas! Yikes, guys, help, damsel-in-real-distress here ..

Lemon2 ~ Any "guru" advice to impart?

[yikai]

to be honest, this is a really rare opportunity to witness copperbands eating LPS.

although they usually quite reef safe, the risk is still there.

unfortunately i do not have any other advice but to remove it if it bothers you seeing it eat your LPS.

copperbands rarely eat corals and their long beaks are more for picking at worms and other crustacean within cracks in rocks.

but there are specimens that take corals.

sorry to hear!

as with almost all butterflies and angels, there is no 100% reef safe (with the exception of some).

there are some that are very reccomended for reef tanks but with risk. for coral loving people that cannot take any risk and chances, butterflies and angels are not reccomended.

for your aiptasia problem, you may wish to try chemical means or other biological control like peppermint shrimps.

[damsel-in-distress]

Update on my experience with the Copperband ...

It has started eating frozen mysis put in .. (must be hungry). There seems to be less pecking at the LPS .. but I am still waiting to see it will eat the aiptasia! I think the Copperband coming from a Fish-Only tank to a mixed reef suddenly gave it "permission" to eat anything in sight .. like a starving child in a candy store! Hehe.

Well, hope this will eventually work out ... fingers crossed!

[RockyBoy]

Aiptasia.. ooo.. wow.. nice....

[damsel-in-distress]

Aiptasia.. ooo.. wow.. nice....

O dear, I just noticed that u r an aiptasia lover. What the ...?? U can have mine (if u can get them out). hehe.

[Fishyfish]

Bros/Sis,

I was so inspired by Iwarna's angels swimming in their sps display tank that I got meself an insanely beautiful 5-6" Caribbean Queen (from mouth to ends of dorsal filaments).

It is now in my 4 ft but shallow ATS tank for QT. It eats pellets greedily 5 mins upon introduction. As I have a 9' SPS dominated tank, I am very tempted to place it there for the long term. However, the SPS tank also has some sponges, lobos, 1 trachy, sea squirts, cloves, duncan, rics, zoas, clams, rhodactis, favites, candycane, etc.

The question is, will it cause real harm to the LPS if I introduce it say two weeks down the road after fattening it up on live, frozen, pellet, nori and flake foods?

I heard that well fed fish normaly leave corals alone...how?

I can also put it in my FOWLR tank but that tank is not so well lit and water not as pristine as my reef tank and I really want the best for the queen....

Any advice please?

Worried....

Thanks!

[jetski250]

Good reading

http://www.advanceda...com/2005/7/fish

[stina]

When angels/butterflies nip on your SPS, polyp extension will be compromised. Which is normal. However, polyps do and will extend at night when the fishes are asleep. If you're not a fan of closed polyps in the day, angels and butterflies are not for you. It's a small price to pay IMO if you are keeping these beautiful fishes. They are, the most colourful family of fishes in the sea IMO. The angels and butterflies.

Polyps will also extend in areas where these fishes cannot reach. I.e, deep within the colony. SPS grow in branches and can be a hindrance to these fishes to reach the polyps within. What's the bonus for this? Many SPS harbor brilliantly coloured flesh, but when the polyps extend, the entire coral is shrouded in brown. I'm not a SPS keeper, but imagine your glorious blue millie being shrouded in long wavy BROWN polyps. Not very nice right? Angels and butterflies help keep these polyps retracted, which shows off the beautiful blue colour of the millie. This doesn't harm the SPS. Photosynthesis of zooxanthellae can and will still occur. Polyp extension occurs in areas where the fishes can't reach, and at night.

How much exactly, is the coral being harmed? Truth is, not much. Take a close look the next time your dwarf angel nips at your SPS. The majority that is being nipped off is the SPS slime. Not the polyp itself.

I couldn't agree more! Well said.

Last month i bought beutifull (large) P.navarchus (or is it now E.navarchus?)... This angel is stunning! It took me a whole week just to acclimatize this semi-adult fish to my mostly SPSP dominated reef, and my Zebrasoma xanturum didn't help too much with it.

Nowdays Majestic angel swims and eats with other tankmates, and my polyp expansion isn't as good as it used to be - but who cares?! Angel nips at polyps some time, maybe he nips at slime, as LemonLemon stated above, but truth is this amazing fish can be kept in SPS tank, IMHO.

My advice to ppl who want to have large angels in their reef is: buy the fish when you have large specimens of Acropora in your tank and enjoy in your new angelfish!

[yikai]

thanks stina for trying angels in SPS reefs.

Majestic angels are nice and you're not wrong in calling it P. navarchus or E. navarchus. like the blueface angel, it belongs in the genus pomacanthus, but placed in a subgenus (euxiphipops).

so the proper scientific nomenclature for this fish would be Pomacanthus (Euxiphipops) navarchus.

however, Euxiphipops navarchus or Pomacanthus navarchus is also fine. depends on how specific you want to be. but most people do not know about the euxiphipops subgenus so better to stick to Pomacanthus.