Volka for SPS systems

[MarcoVan]

Just to add on,

Nitrate and Phosphate testkits are a MUST! Preferably for everyone to go for Salifert, API and D&D. If you got the money, you can invest in a Hanna Phosphate Handheld Meter (:

These testkits are important because it provides an accurate time which you need to cut off your vodka dosing by half. If you miss that meaning you overdose vodka into your tank, you'll get peach fuzz, cyano bloom as well as symptons that are like bleaching on your spses especially the montis; the only thing that tells you that your montis are not bleaching is the polyp extension. Other than that, you get an almost white SPS.

HTH

Happy Reefing,

Marc J.

[yikai]

according to what i learn in microbiology in school, bacteria has a few stages of growth. the lag phase, where initial cultures do not grow and remain stagnant to get used to surroundings. (this probably happens after bacteria dosing), and to create DNA, enzymes and other biological activities. next comes the log phase where bacteria multiply logarithmically, and cell growth exceeds cell deaths. the 3rd phase is the stationary phase whereby equilibrium is reached reflecting population growth and nutrient usage. final phase is death phase where lack of nutrients occur and colonies of bacteria dies.

according to this theory, repeated dosing of food source is needed to keep them alive. and this is done by adding new vodka am i right? o.O paiseh no knowledge on this so have to apply some school into it to try to understand...

as for good and/or bad bacteria taking over, i there is no way to tell unless a sample of bacteria can be grown and isolated out of the tank into a pure culture, and most importantly, IDed. It is impossible to tell what the bacteria feeds on unless it is IDed and pin poined to the specific species. for all you know, bad bacteria don't need carbon as a food source. carbon is only one of the multitude of energy source microbes get their energy from. so in this instance its a stab in the dark.

have been secretly following this thread ._. quite tempted to try reducing NO3. but for LPS not SPS. :/

[thairun]

Keep on coming...........

This is very good info. that being waiting for coz the ocean is so big and we dont know actually what in there. Yet we bring to our home in our small ocean box to duplicate the nature?

[LaW]

according to what i learn in microbiology in school, bacteria has a few stages of growth. the lag phase, where initial cultures do not grow and remain stagnant to get used to surroundings. (this probably happens after bacteria dosing), and to create DNA, enzymes and other biological activities. next comes the log phase where bacteria multiply logarithmically, and cell growth exceeds cell deaths. the 3rd phase is the stationary phase whereby equilibrium is reached reflecting population growth and nutrient usage. final phase is death phase where lack of nutrients occur and colonies of bacteria dies.

according to this theory, repeated dosing of food source is needed to keep them alive. and this is done by adding new vodka am i right? o.O paiseh no knowledge on this so have to apply some school into it to try to understand...

as for good and/or bad bacteria taking over, i there is no way to tell unless a sample of bacteria can be grown and isolated out of the tank into a pure culture, and most importantly, IDed. It is impossible to tell what the bacteria feeds on unless it is IDed and pin poined to the specific species. for all you know, bad bacteria don't need carbon as a food source. carbon is only one of the multitude of energy source microbes get their energy from. so in this instance its a stab in the dark.

have been secretly following this thread ._. quite tempted to try reducing NO3. but for LPS not SPS. :/

this is backed by me as well.

just to add to what lemon had said, though with enough food source and nutrient. i try to make this as layman as possibile. cell divisions(multiplication) is not unlimited, they are not immortal. eventually cells will slow down in division and dies off till their cell walls couldn't take it. just like ur wound gets harder to heal as u get older.

so its best to add in new strain of bacteria from outer source from time to time.

and bacterias outside the nitrobacter etc do need carbon source to boost themselves. example are yeast etc. it depends whether or not you regards those bacteria as bad bacteria or not.

but for sure, i do strongly believe carbon source like ethanol(vodka), vinegar, sugar(lactose, xylose, glucose etc) will aid in bad bacteria growth.

in my experience, whenever i add carbon source to my cell culture, it was always easier to get them contaiminated with other rubbish bac. so perhaps people could take this as note worthy.

[LaW]

and to add, to minimize those bad bacteria, you must have knowledge of your tank stability. in a sense that you believe ur tank nitrobacter etc are more then those "nasty fellas". let this and adding food source, you will have lesser chance to get overwhelmed by the bad fellas.

so how to tell ur tank more to the nitrobacter side? well, thats for your own judgement already.

enjoy ur reefing.

and lemon, if you need absolute HPLC grade ethanol 200proof, let me know. for friends since you gave me so much things. i have got too much.

[yikai]

Keep on coming...........

This is very good info. that being waiting for coz the ocean is so big and we dont know actually what in there. Yet we bring to our home in our small ocean box to duplicate the nature?

you will be suprised that some of the bacteria living in our tanks come from the air. nitrosoma, nitrobacter etc can be found living in soil too and are very important for nitrogen cycles on land. so it is not uncommon if these bacteria make way to our aquarium via endospores etc. the nitrosomas and nitrobacter living in soil need an optimum Ph of 7.2-7.5, and die above 49degrees celcius or below 32 C. the ones in our aquarium should be a different strain, because if so, then all will be dead liao haha. if only my school allowed me to culture foreign microbes. this way it will greatly help in knowing the exact requirements of the bacteria in our tank.

[LaW]

you will be suprised that some of the bacteria living in our tanks come from the air. nitrosoma, nitrobacter etc can be found living in soil too and are very important for nitrogen cycles on land. so it is not uncommon if these bacteria make way to our aquarium via endospores etc. the nitrosomas and nitrobacter living in soil need an optimum Ph of 7.2-7.5, and die above 49degrees celcius or below 32 C. the ones in our aquarium should be a different strain, because if so, then all will be dead liao haha. if only my school allowed me to culture foreign microbes. this way it will greatly help in knowing the exact requirements of the bacteria in our tank.

really? i read nitrobacter optimum culture condition is at pH 7.5-8.2. if didnt dift too far away from the optimal range. they will still survive, only growth is retarded. the degree of it being affected is depended on the degree of dift.

perhaps different mode of carrying out expt. or perhaps, calibration out of range which is a common expt error in lab.

and if its die below 32F, it will be more likely but C is very unlikely.

[yikai]

really? i read nitrobacter optimum culture condition is at 7.5-8.2 and a wider range of temperature u mentioned.

perhaps different mode of carrying out expt. or perhaps, calibration out of range. if its die below 32F, it will be more likely but C is very unlikely.

ps 32F.

Nitrobacter vulgaris and Nitrobacter alkalicus (Holt, 1993). According to Grundmann, Nitrobacter seem to grow optimally at 38°C and at a pH of 7.9, but Holt states that Nitrobacter grow optimally at 28°C and grows within a pH range of 5.8 -8.5 and has an pH optima between 7.6 and 7.8 (Grundmann et al. 2000, Holt, 1993).

depends on who u believe. nitrobacter and nitrosoma found in soil posess the above traits. im not sure about thsoe in the sea. could be a different species all together but bearing the same genius nitrobacter/nitrosoma.

[LaW]

ps 32F.

Nitrobacter vulgaris and Nitrobacter alkalicus (Holt, 1993). According to Grundmann, Nitrobacter seem to grow optimally at 38°C and at a pH of 7.9, but Holt states that Nitrobacter grow optimally at 28°C and grows within a pH range of 5.8 -8.5 and has an pH optima between 7.6 and 7.8 (Grundmann et al. 2000, Holt, 1993).

depends on who u believe. nitrobacter and nitrosoma found in soil posess the above traits. im not sure about thsoe in the sea. could be a different species all together but bearing the same genius nitrobacter/nitrosoma.

very true,

i think i ever come across those with nitrobacter content in those bacteria supplements for our aquarium. do you have the source for all the genus's condition? it will good for us to manage to pinpoint those that were more favorable to our saltwater keeping condition.

but still, we are not to be confused with their survival range and proliferation rate in contrast with their optimum condition for that particular strain or the whole family. or confused with just a particular strain with the whole family.

[yikai]

very true,

i think i ever come across those with nitrobacter content in those bacteria supplements for our aquarium. do you have the source for all the genus's condition? it will good for us to manage to pinpoint those that were more favorable to our saltwater keeping condition.

but still, we are not to be confused with their survival range and proliferation rate in contrast with their optimum condition for that particular genus or the whole family.

nitrobacter is a very big and diverse group of bacteria. almost all are gram negative rod shape strains. u coming across nitrobacter in the bacteria suppliment is no coincidence. nitrobacter is one of the main contributers to nitrogen cycling. it is present in many environments to aid in nitrogen cycles. but then, the exact strain is unknown to us. so most of the time they just write Nitrobacter. Sp i do not have the source for all the individual species conditions, neither do i have the source of ALL the species.i only know some by heart, which unfortunately, do not participate in Nitrogen fixation in seawater.

it is possible however to do detailed swabs of liverock, filter sponge etc where they grow, and pure culture them in agar. from there determine the exact species and look it up via books/internet. this is tedious though... and u need a laboratory to do it in. thing is, i don't have a lab available to do so. otherwise it will be easy to pin-point what exactly is living in our tanks and what exactly it needs. this i feel, will help tremendously in the hobby.

[yikai]

for nitrobacter, manage to find these 4 species. so little? only 4? if this is all there is in Nitrobacter, it will be much easier to pinpoint which one lives in marine environments and what they need

N. alkalicus

N. hamburgensis

N. vulgaris

N. winogradskyi

probably one of these species participate in cycles in seawater. not sure which one.

[LaW]

sad, i thought they would have something out. yeah, too much work and cost involved also la. if only i have access to the lab i used to work in, i could help grow something out, isolate it, express it, sequence it and compare it to genome database.

sad i no longer work there. but i do believe some of the nitrobacter family were found in the sea. and some both on land and sea since they are very adaptive.

[LaW]

for nitrobacter, manage to find these 4 species. so little? only 4? if this is all there is in Nitrobacter, it will be much easier to pinpoint which one lives in marine environments and what they need

N. alkalicus

N. hamburgensis

N. vulgaris

N. winogradskyi

probably one of these species participate in cycles in seawater. not sure which one.

good job. i seen the vularis but the rest didnt. will do some read up or perhaps ask my Prof or PhD seniors.

hope to isolate some of them.

[yikai]

sad, i thought they would have something out. yeah, too much work and cost involved also la. if only i have access to the lab i used to work in, i could help grow something out, isolate it, express it, sequence it and compare it to genome database.

sad i no longer work there. but i do believe some of the nitrobacter family were found in the sea. and some both on land and sea since they are very adaptive.

do a search on the above 4 species i mentioned. one of them might be the one we are looking for. as for lab, i do have access, but wether or not allowed to grow stuff there, i'm not sure. it will be pretty easy from there on. the only tough part will be to get permission

[LaW]

i did a quick search

N. alkalicus: lake and soil

N. hamburgensis: soil

N. vulgaris: water and soil

N. winogradskyi: water and soil

most likely N. hamburgensis can stay in water as well but didnt mention in that website

do it quietly la.

[yikai]

impossible to use my school's lab in the sly. i will need to store it and autoclave it once im done. they will find out...

[LaW]

impossible to use my school's lab in the sly. i will need to store it and autoclave it once im done. they will find out...

shruck.. just when things were getting interesting. nvm la, during your IA, contact me. i show you where to go to grow ur sutff.

[loster]

volka dosing on sps tank have side effect after long team of usage. this is my personal experience.

[MarcoVan]

volka dosing on sps tank have side effect after long team of usage. this is my personal experience.

hello bro,

I'm keen to know what side effects will vodka have. I'm into this deal but will like to know more

Care to share?

Happy Reefing,

Marc J.

[loster]

hello bro,

I'm keen to know what side effects will vodka have. I'm into this deal but will like to know more

Care to share?

Happy Reefing,

Marc J.

i don't have the data...

kept sps for years. i tried out vodka before i used zeovit system and than used vodka again for a long period of time. my P04 and N03 were undetectable after used of vodka as compare with zeovit system. and the colour of my sps was awasome (you can check my old tank thread).

my corals were healthy and all my sps grow real fast. i have to frag it almost once in 2 weeks. just one fine day (as usual, nothing change... no additional of things, all parameters within it specs), within a week, 1/3 of my sps experienced burned on it tips and it turned darken after that it started to RTN from the tips. in fact, it can still hold in this condition for a month with this condition till it totally die. no matter how much water change done... all parameters within it spec and still, one by one all my sps experience burn on it tips, darken and then RTN from there. so, decided to sell the rest of my sps to save them.

after that, all my lps also suffer the same fate. all my acans gone within a month.

i cleared up all my sps and lps and just keep fish with LR for a period of one year. just hope that i can reset the whole system. after a year of break, i tried out sps again. and i can never have it survive in my tank for a week. same issue, it started to get burn on it tips and then RTN from there onward. at first i thought may be my mag gave some problem or off spec. checked all my parameters, everything is within it spec. my cal reactor till running strong even without any corals for a year.

i thought may be my system needs sometime. stop dosing anything. just gave it a break. just keep my system run for another 6 months and try again. i started collect of zoa after that. at the same time, i tried out monti. however, i can never be able to hold it for more than 2 weeks this time. it got burn on it tips and then RTN from there onward.

i only used zeovit system for a short period of time. dosing of vodka was the longer.

this experience is just base on my personal experience and encounter. may not true to anybody.

joe_p, you started sps longer then i am. i am sure you have much experience in it.

[MarcoVan]

^

Bro loster,

Can you recall how much was your vodka dosage per day and what brand of vodka were you using that time?

Also, what brand test kits were you using at that point of time?

Burnt tips = high alk (alk above 8 is bad on sps tanks with vodka dosing)

Happy Reefing,

Marc J.

P.S: I am sorry to hear about your loss with using vodka. certainly spells like D-Day waking up in the morning to find everything in tatters and torns. Sorry bro! Hope you're coming back strong in due future!

[gchoo]

^

Bro loster,

Can you recall how much was your vodka dosage per day and what brand of vodka were you using that time?

Also, what brand test kits were you using at that point of time?

Burnt tips = high alk (alk above 8 is bad on sps tanks with vodka dosing)

Happy Reefing,

Marc J.

P.S: I am sorry to hear about your loss with using vodka. certainly spells like D-Day waking up in the morning to find everything in tatters and torns. Sorry bro! Hope you're coming back strong in due future!

Bro..I think it is alk above 9...not 8 = burnt tips...plus no large swings in alk

[MarcoVan]

Bro..I think it is alk above 9...not 8 = burnt tips...plus no large swings in alk

oops.. my bad

[Joe_P]

i don't have the data...

kept sps for years. i tried out vodka before i used zeovit system and than used vodka again for a long period of time. my P04 and N03 were undetectable after used of vodka as compare with zeovit system. and the colour of my sps was awasome (you can check my old tank thread).

my corals were healthy and all my sps grow real fast. i have to frag it almost once in 2 weeks. just one fine day (as usual, nothing change... no additional of things, all parameters within it specs), within a week, 1/3 of my sps experienced burned on it tips and it turned darken after that it started to RTN from the tips. in fact, it can still hold in this condition for a month with this condition till it totally die. no matter how much water change done... all parameters within it spec and still, one by one all my sps experience burn on it tips, darken and then RTN from there. so, decided to sell the rest of my sps to save them.

after that, all my lps also suffer the same fate. all my acans gone within a month.

i cleared up all my sps and lps and just keep fish with LR for a period of one year. just hope that i can reset the whole system. after a year of break, i tried out sps again. and i can never have it survive in my tank for a week. same issue, it started to get burn on it tips and then RTN from there onward. at first i thought may be my mag gave some problem or off spec. checked all my parameters, everything is within it spec. my cal reactor till running strong even without any corals for a year.

i thought may be my system needs sometime. stop dosing anything. just gave it a break. just keep my system run for another 6 months and try again. i started collect of zoa after that. at the same time, i tried out monti. however, i can never be able to hold it for more than 2 weeks this time. it got burn on it tips and then RTN from there onward.

i only used zeovit system for a short period of time. dosing of vodka was the longer.

this experience is just base on my personal experience and encounter. may not true to anybody.

joe_p, you started sps longer then i am. i am sure you have much experience in it.

Gary,

My experience with volka is pretty limited.

Previous successes with SPS have always been mainstream application.

I did however apply volka to my current setup for a short period of 2 months.

And it did managed to keep my phosphate and nitrate levels in check during the trial period.

Also experienced the "burned-tip" syndrome that's often associated with elevated alk levels.

[thairun]

Bro..I think it is alk above 9...not 8 = burnt tips...plus no large swings in alk

+1

In fact now have to stop dosing vodka for a moment not coz of alk swing or high but bad cyno bacteria bloom. Now affected my main tank