Mrs. Lee Medivac from London

[Shinguuji]

That comment is way overboard and also extremely unfair to generalize things.

You know, Singapore is not exactly corruption or bribery free either. It's just that people here pretend it doesnt exist. Or the controlled press dare not report it. And the type of officially-sanctioned vote buying that goes on here is beyond legend.

And at least Taiwan has a free and open press and a vibrant, if sometimes wild, democracy, none of which exists here.

Be that as it may, by your logic, you seem to imply that because condition "X" exists in one's home country, it is somehow ironic that he speaks against the same condition "X happening in another country. So are you saying that because a ERP exists here, it would be ironic of you to speak against the new ERP in London as well? Or that it would be funny for a Iranian to speak against the ill treatment of women occurring in Pakistan?

But back to the topic at hand. . .

With the SIA thing, I totally agree that it is in the best interest of SIA to obtain the good graces of powerful families. It is smart business. So they can give all the perks to the Bill Gates of the world, and I would say, "Good for you, very smart."

But the point I was saying is it right for SIA (if indeed it paid for the trip) to give that gift to the SM and DPM. And conversely, is it right for the Lees to accept that kind of gift, given that they are sitting public officials.

ok, first thing, sorry if this insults you, but this is IMO and IMO i think what i'm going to say is extremely logical

the thing i can't stand most is when foreigners come here and start complaining about the state of Singapore, if u don't like Singapore, just leave or go back home, no one's begging you to stay in Singapore

strangely most foreigners will complain about Singapore, i have heard Malaysians, Aussies, taiwanese, etc. complaining, and its VERY irritating, all of you come here, take places in our JCs and polys, jobs, women, benefits here...

PLUS FOREIGNERS NO NEED TO SERVE NS!!!!! most i mean, excluding those 'STUDENTS' We slave for our nation for 2 1/2 years, how would u feel if some foreigner who has taken a good job, good house, good car, good wife from Singapore came to you and said that Singapore sucks? that guy has NO RIGHT at all and its irritating to hear someone say this

for all the talk about free speech and all that rubbish, surely we could use some tact when criticising about another's country esp. when one is less qualified to do so to prevent irritations(a very mild word already...)

Singapore corrupted? yes, maybe, cos the laws were designed for legal corruption? at least its LEGAL, and we DON'T FIGHT IN PARLIMENT UNLIKE ahem.... see, i could say many things about taiwan, japan, malaysia and wherever, we do think of these, but we don't say it out, cos we're not qualified to do so, maybe we'll join in a discussion but rarely do we say it out of the blue or keep complaining, furthermore we're still in Singapore, not even there yet, taking their jobs, money, benefits and women.....so we still at least have a little right to say these

we're not exactly happy about foreigners either, the government chooses them bcos it is percived that they are better than the locals, but why is it ALWAYS Singapore students that top other universities, and standard of education? and foreigners are not exactly gre8 for the economy either, on economic terms(if u understand..) we already have a sky-high amount of imports, plus if more foreigners come into singapore, there'll be a net outflow of capital, thus worsening our balance of payments, the government has to do something like borrow or something dumb that'll destroy the whole economy to correct this deficit....

look, foreigners have not been proven to help the economy or our standard of living, only helping to make the elitist, 'cosmopolitian' type of city Singapore idiots want it to be, for all the 'jobs' foreigners have helped cre8, locals would have done better, and we won't cause stupid things like a BOP deficit, with the amount of trouble foreigners have caused, i would think twice about opening MY mouth

look, the older generation respects the SM ALOT, maybe he has made many 'mistakes' (percived ones...) in the later part of his reign as SM, we respect him for helping us to bring our economy to the strongest and best in entire asia, even 'the economist' magazine says this, we're currently the MOST STABLE country to invest in, thank you SM lee, no matter what he does now, we're glad he has brought Singapore so far, so he should be able to do anything he likes IMO, he built it anyway!!!

actually i agreed with you a little, maybe if it was ho ching or someother elitist nut, i would have supported you, but not in this case, sorry, pls research b4 making a comment and consider the feelings of the locals

and thanks to the SM for training s'poreans to be so disciplined to study that we'll win all the other ppl when we goto the foreign uni.s and then proceed to take even more money, jobs and women u foreigner have ever did in singapore to repay our BOP deficit, anyway 'stayer' means we have over stayed our leave in Singapore, goodbye, we'll help u steal other ppl's $$$, 10q....lol....

no offence, all this is just IMO....

[KingFish]

... I don't believe this ...

[Shinguuji]

anyway, instead of focusing on the bad things abt each other's countries, why not talk abt the good things, like taiwan has S.H.E and jay chou...lol

if ur unhappy, plan to earn enuff to move away, or try to adapt instaed of bashing the place locals call home

be proactive instead of reactive

[KingFish]

I'm trying to catch the train of thought but I think its still boarding at the station

[Shinguuji]

on the other hand, anyone tt reads this pls migrate to australia or wherever b4 its too late, our currency is constantly being pushed down so as to correct the BOP disequillibrium those foreigners caused, goto USA to earn big bucks, or even australia also can, u can use ur general degree or even u poly one also can go there upgrade then work, i confirm u tt u all sure rise to at least manager evantually, after u earn the big bucks liao, either go home to singapore where u have to live in some tiny flat like me, where u have no space to put any fish tanks or move to australia where u can get landed propery next to a river, plus 3 sports car, nothing less than NSX or supra, plus all the space in the world to put ur tanks, plus u can throw money around if ur not happy, cos ur already so darn rich, so go b4 its too late

http://www.geographyiq.com/ranking/ranking..._Rate_top25.htm

why would a country with the 6th best GDP per capita in the world be 2nd on the moving list?????? that shows that we're being underpaid and being replaced by useless 'talents' all bcos of the govt. drive to make this an cosmopolitan city, we're all gold rings in swines snouts, quickly move and save urself, dun worry abt repaying ur country, u did that in NS already... =)

[Shinguuji]

I'm trying to catch the train of thought but I think its still boarding at the station

whoops....

anyway, the basic idea is tt if u dun like singapore, then don't come here, that's it, no one forced you, on the other hand, s'porens like me were born here, we have no choice, so we got more right to complain than u, and who likes seeing his/her home country being bashed by the people that in the first place as a result of elitist policy, caused you many problems, its not their fault, they're like the sword of ur enemy, it not the sword's fault that ur pierced by it, but its still not very nice to criticise abt other ppl's country esp. when ur in tt position

and abt how much these foreign ppl add, they only destroy cultures(which the govt. wants cos of the retard 'cosmo' culture they want...), take jobs and cause economic disequllibrium, they cre8 jobs, yes they do, but it would be far more efficient to use the underpaid locals to do these, furthermore, the BOP problems they cause would counteract the cre8tion of jobs once the govt. uses its policies to correct the disequillibrium, and we might end up losing more jobs, its sad and makes me angry esp. cos i'm being driven out of my home, i want to stay bcos i was born here, i love the land and the ppl, unfortunately, the cost of staying is far more than the benefits, so too bad, i'm moving at the first chance

[pospeh]

Well, it's obvious that I have a completely different view than you on whether foreigners have a right to criticize their temporary home (and we are treading on a sensitive topic), so reasonably I should let it go. I will add two comments though.

The original purpose of my post was to point out possible bribery (if SIA paid) or waste of gov’t funds (if gov’t paid). Apparently quite a large number of Singaporeans also had the same concerns, and that was what prompted the response from the SM. And by paying, he agreed that it would have been improper for SIA or the gov’t to pay for his family’s personal expenditures. So that discussion is now moot.

My rant on Singapore was in response to a perceived put-down on my own country. So I certainly understand your defending Singapore in the same manner. But logically, it should not matter whether the criticism is coming from a foreigner or not. The truth of the statement must be evaluated on its own merits, not on whose mouth it is coming from.

But it is apparent that I have offended local sensibilities here, so I do apologize for my indiscretions.

[pacificbetta]

Wow, I consider myself as a bigmouth already

I just came out from serving my loyal duty to the country, and it was a shitty fortnight to be bossed around by some egoistic, incompetent ######, but still the comments are a little overstated, IMO.

Additions:

Comments not directed at pospeh, just realised he posted while I was "replying"

Edited November 6, 2003 by pacificbetta

[Shinguuji]

Well, it's obvious that I have a completely different view than you on whether foreigners have a right to criticize their temporary home (and we are treading on a sensitive topic), so reasonably I should let it go. I will add two comments though.

The original purpose of my post was to point out possible bribery (if SIA paid) or waste of gov’t funds (if gov’t paid). Apparently quite a large number of Singaporeans also had the same concerns, and that was what prompted the response from the SM. And by paying, he agreed that it would have been improper for SIA or the gov’t to pay for his family’s personal expenditures. So that discussion is now moot.

My rant on Singapore was in response to a perceived put-down on my own country. So I certainly understand your defending Singapore in the same manner. But logically, it should not matter whether the criticism is coming from a foreigner or not. The truth of the statement must be evaluated on its own merits, not on whose mouth it is coming from.

But it is apparent that I have offended local sensibilities here, so I do apologize for my indiscretions.

glad tt u can adopt such a nice, good and objective attitude, i was expecting flames...

ok, on the subject on SIA and SM lee, i feel he still deserves preferential treatment no matter what, would SIA be the top airline it is now without the SM's help? would we even have an airline?

the SM is the founder of most things in Singapore, from airlines to healthcare, he owns them in a way, our GDP has increased at a rate that is more than 10 times than any other country, pick up last week's economist article on mahartir, u can see the rate our GDP has incresed under the SM's hands

dosen't he deserve such prefrential treatment? he's the founder of most services found in singapore, if there were no SM, there would be no SIA, in fact i feel IMO that SIA should pay for the SM after all the SM has done

i won't say the same if ho ching or LSL had done the same thing cos they brough about NO miracles and founded nothing else save the dreaded cosmopolitian policies found in s'pore

SM is the boss of singapore, we should give him the best, cannot say the same abt his son though.... even if the SM does things that goes again us, i'm grateful that he has at least given us a fighting start in Singapore, so that we can thrive elsewhere, imagine if someone else had taken the place of SM in 1965, we would have been something like east timor

that is why i feel that it is our national duty to serve NS before we siam the country, to repay this country and the fighting start it has given us, the SM has given nearly 3million singaporean the ability to fight and live on our own, to carve out a sercure and beautiful future(elsewhere?) it is only right that he get prefrential treatment even if its unfair

the cost if living under a fair but stupid leader is far greter than living under a biased but talented guy, i won't complain...

[Achilles Tang]

Guys guys guys... no country is perfect and certainly no political system and politician or leader ever is.

Even Ghandi couldn't please everyone.

I'm glad that we are all matured enough not to bring this to a flame fest war but a frank discussion and sharing of opinions. So please do avoid the inflammatory comments like "go home, get lost" etc.

The way I see it, Pospeh brought up the pertinent points and those have already been brought to a closure with SM's statements.

I am sure many of us have these same questions in mind though many of us may not have verbalised it like in the other forum where you can find many other Singaporeans, locally and overseas-based not holding back their criticisms.

Pospeh, although not a local, has been here and contributed his skills as an individual... so what if he is not a natural born Singaporean? He is subjected to the same amount of taxes, if not more, and have to live in the system that we created (minus the NS and all that). Singapore is a cosmopolitan country... and so is almost every country in the world now... with expats working next to locals.

Going to Australia and expecting the locals to welcome you with open arms? Fat hope! They view you as stealing their jobs, taking their girls, spoiling their chances in life as competitors etc!

So regardless where you are, If you are not as competent as their local talents, trust me... you'll get the sack!

Let's just get along, after all, there are more fun things to do... like REEFING!!!

AT

[hoppinghippos]

rumour: I like the way you said it!! damn farny....

I think shinguuji has a point, if foreigners are view as guest invited to our country for their skills (whether or not locals also have) for them to insult us is akin to a guest visiting your house and telling you the dinner you prepared for them taste like crap and that you should do this, do that to your house to improve it, surely no one likes that. but having said that, if foreigners are viewed not as guests but partners in building up our nation then yes they do have a say. I think its a grey area as to whether foreigners help us more or hurt us more. some can say they may siphon cash out of s'pore, but the work they do may have trickle down effects on our economy, indirectly boosting our economy. but personally what I resent isn't foreigner's presence, but the local mindset (garment esp) that they are better and what they can provide we can't.

[KingFish]

Don't mind me guys ... most of those who know me in person, knows that I am the king of conspiracy theories, but I'll sit this one out.

I'm getting updated on mindset of locals, plus keeping myself amused at the same time. Now that's a deal ...

I do apologise if its been done at the expense of poseph ... but I'm sure he's been 'enlightened' in ways, in fact, by the 'Singaporean Way'

[Shinguuji]

we might be 2nd class citizens in australia or NZ, but we're already 2nd class citizens in our own country, notice that most service personels, esp. the female ones do not give ang moh black face? but when the locals come, their bad attitude shows out like a reaction, plus we are paid much less and forced to live in some really run down estates like bukit merah while the ang moh live in costa rhu condo, in australia, all u'll face is a barage of racist remarks, nothing u can deter with a fat amount of money and parking ur NSX next to their battered old car would help u to belive that they're just jealous, plus we get big house, big car, good women, good money, good life and ur money can buy for u lots of things... once they see the money, they don't care that ur not ang moh or whatever, they just serve u with a smile, nothing u can't get used to...

u can't just pass off NS as compared to higher taxes, they got the cash to pay for singapore's taxes while we literally waste away in the 2 1/2 yrs, at the prime of our lives, where all the ang moh and other ppl will play our GF while we're slaving away for our nation, plus ur not guranteed to come out alive....if u know what i mean, the only way to equate with NS IMO is to serve, to amt. of $ can equate the time we have lost slaving for our nation

true that the racist thing will get to you someday, but the asians are half-way through colonising australia....

singapore has its good points, like its uniqueness, but the most ironic thing is tt we are 2nd(or maybe 1.5) class citizens in our own country, we serve NS, pay high taxes, get EXTREMELY underpaid, live in sub-standard estates and see black face while the foreigners get EVERYTHING while some, ESP THE ANG MOH are TOTALLY useless

on the point tt singaporeans are not gd enough overseas, that's highly unlikely, we're always no.1 in overseas uni. so we shld be paid a big bomb anyway

is cosmopolitian really that good? the govt. allow 'immoral' things like bar-top dancing etc. just to make this a cosmo city, and IMO, i know this is generalisation, so i say SOME of the 'cosmopolitian' ppl are really self-centered, they call themselves aethists not bcos they dun belive in any god but bcos they can't belive they're living their lives for someone else, furthermore, when u talk to them, its really boring, cos all they talk is abt themselves, they got so much money and they keep spending it on themselves, plus their position of high power makes them feel that the world, the solar system, the universe, the galaxy and everything in it revolves around them, is it good to encourage such boring, dull, self centred people? from what i see, all they do is goto a bar, or clubbing after work, pick up a woman, or get picked up if they're female, go home and do 'immoral' stuff....these ppl keep moving arnd, so the only thing tt remains constant is themselves, its only natural that their world revolves arnd themselves, i say SOME and only SOME

why are we so defensive when it comes to rights of criticism, even if ur foreigner, plan to stay here and do ur part, u might be 100% singaporean, but if u never slave for the nation, most ppl would say u no rights, cos NS is like a badge to the locals, a symbol that we walk the bridge is more than u walk the road, as in we suffer more than u, so dun talk so much, its not a very clear cut or even a right mentality, but its only human reaction to behave in such a way

[Shinguuji]

'did you really think that the American expat needs to do reservist training twice a year? Or that his kids are forced to study Mandarin in order to enter the university here? Or that his kids even had to study in our pressure-cooker education system, instead of one of those international schools which are sprouting up in Singapore (which Singaporeans are not permitted to attend?) Or that he is paid the same as the Singaporean with equivalent skills? Or that his kids, when they turn 18, run the risk of being drowned in a bucketful of water in an army camp? Or that your non-existent right to vote really gives you a bigger stake in this country than that expat? Or that his money is compulsorily confiscated from him until he turns 55 or 62? Or that his Singapore employer won't pay for his accommodation and his car?'

straycat from the young PAP forum, just found this today, i don't post there...

he kinda says what i want to say in an example....getting hard to express myself, mabye bcos too lor sor....

AT:no $$$ no space to reef anymore leh....how to reef, i think i try nano-tank liao, opening 1 1/2 ft. tank soon, maybe put on my table....

[darren]

i thought its rather sad that things have to come to this.(i mean sm lee incident, not taiwan-singapore) the way i see it, sm lee works for the government, his wife falls ill, and the employer provides him help out of their pocket. its quite normal for an employee's immediate familly member's medical bill to be paid by the employer isn't it?

even if we leave employer, employee, country and taxpayers relations out of it, come on, this is our sm lee. the situation now is like... the father got ill, and the sons complaining about having to share his medical bills.

darren

[hoppinghippos]

rumour: oh c'mon, join in lah!! it'll be nice to hear different views, else damn sian after a while.

darren: pt taken, but I think its not a matter of father/son but matter of fairness. if he can't afford it then yes it is nice for garment to pay in view of his services rendered in the past, but being one of the world's richest men, he can afford it. so it won't be fair if tax payer's money is used. tell the poor dustbin man he HAS to pay for the medivac, even if the money means a lot more to him and when his wife falls sick, noone's gg to be bothered with her. so you see, its a matter of accountability. its always easy to take the high moral ground, but always rem that somewhere low low below, there are pple suffering and who can't share your high moral views. for example, a man who serves NS, works damn hard as dustbin man, lives a good and honest life, one day his wife falls very ill, he wants to jump queue and needs urgent medical attention, is the value of SM's wife's life higher than this poor man's wife? will SIA bother to rig up a plane for him? will garment pay? Personally, I"ll rather pay for him cuz to him the money is a lot more meaningful. cuz to me, a life is a life, to favour one life over another is a very big thing, can you tell it to the dustbin man's wife's face that hey sorry have to give you much worse treatment cuz you're a nobody? Cuz imagine the pple in UK NHS who had their appointment delayed as a result of the queue jump.

shinguuji: I disagree with you. your views are very sweeping and lack depth. not every angmoh snatches our girl, (besides most of the SPGs I"ve seen, the ang mohs can keep them man!!), there are angmohs and asian foreigners I know who are really very nice pple, and are simply working here to have a better life for themselves and their families. and tho foreigners don't need to serve NS but that's not their problem, cuz this isn't their country, they're not obliged to be patriotic, they just work here. the prob doesn't come from them, they dont' choose their position, nor pay nor special service from locals, they just work here. its the locals who choose to hire them, pay them, and give them special service. so prob lies with local mindsets. And I think the whole crux of the matter is self confidence. we dont' have self confidence in ourselfs, in our abilities as a country. one reason is the garment keeps giving signals they themselves have no confidence in our locals, plus media keeps harping on ang mohs, how chio and handsome they are, how happening they are, how cool, etc, so hey when the ang moh talks to the sales girl, part of the reason why she smiles so much and is so polite is cuz she's insecure about herself and hence takes on a subservient approach, not daring to offend the angmoh. again prob lies not with angmoh.

Personally I think that's why asian foreigners (eg banglas) are 3rd or 5000th class citizens here, cuz they're the only ones locals can feel self confident enuff to bully or belittle.

and I think its strange you feel so much about NS, since if i"m not wrong you're doing your As now and have not entered NS yet? no offence, but unless you know a couple of angmohs, have finished serving NS, have actually gone for reservist training, have worked your way up, have personal grounds for saying your pay doesn't match with angmoh with similar experience, else it really isn't useful to rant like that, cuz its ranting with no concrete grounds. hhmm but I guess its great practice for your coming GP paper!

[Achilles Tang]

Well said, hoppinghippos! Well said!

[pospeh]

At the risk of being accused of flogging a dead horse, the letters to the editors in today's ST had about 7 letters, published under two separate headings.

Every one of them was in support of the government paying for the expenses. In fact, they even included a letter from an expat. Presumably, this is to show that even unbiased foreigners are all for paying.

I think this is another example of the poor reporting that goes on in ST. Surely, for sake of balance, they could have included a letter expressing the opposite view. So that is why I don't even bother writing to the papers to rant about this sort of thing. It will just go straight to the dustbin.

Anyway, as hippo said, this is all about accountability.

[hoppinghippos]

pospeh: I agree with you, personally I think to some extent ST being the major media has to be careful with what they say so censorship abounds. I think rumour might want to add his conspiracy theories here, but if I"m not wrong, ST had an editor sacked before or something to that effect. If you are really interested, send in to either strea** or toda*, so far I"ve seen very interesting flamming articles even by their own journalist esp on the NEL, seems these 2 newspapers are more liberal minded.