Serious Discussion on Buying / Selling / Trading

[Achilles Tang]

Hi everyone,

I would like to hear from everyone what are your personal viewpoints on the general guidelines and conduct pertaining to the personal sale of items from hobbyist to hobbyist with regards to the buying, selling & trading of livestock or 2nd hand goods.

(This is not a discussion on Commercial Posts)

This discussion should cover the advertising lingo used, photos used, description of products, personal ethics etc.

The aim of this discussion is to see how we can best protect the interests of everyone concerned (buyer and seller and to a lesser extent, getting me involved with your trading issues)

Fire away!

[coralreef]

Hi,

I think we should minimise the misinterpreting of items for sales. Best it to take the original pic of the said products and not using from the pictures found in other website due to copyright issues. It helps to protect SRC too and the members.

It's also good to tell everyone if there's problems or items regarding the product before committing a date for delivery. This should be quite alright if things are clearer. My 2 cents.

[Cookiemunster]

Actually buying and selling is a straightforward and simple issue.

Confusion, anger, frustration, disappointments are only caused due to inaccurate or worse intentional misrepresentation of what the seller is selling.

A few points to contribute are:

1)Sellers should use clear concise description. (say what you sell and sell what you say)

2)State a price

3)As far as possible use actual photos of what you are selling. If not, use with permission some other photo or link but state that it is not the actual photo. But make sure you use a relevant and concise photo reference otherwise its conning.

4)Don't try to twist descriptions of typically known items to make excuses for an inferior product, (personal example, selling dead rocks as live rocks just by playing on the word 'live')

Basically BE ETHICAL and HAVE A MORAL CONSCIENCE!

Be a RESPONSIBLE SELLER and BUYER. For these few dollars or few hundred, its not worth it to damage your own reputation and ethics.

My 2cents.

[reeflax]

Fully agree with Cookiemunster.

What I would not like to see in future : "PM me for the price" What's to hide??? Unless you're out to con innocent people. Make it mandatory for seller to state price.

Be open, even if it's over -priced, so long as both parties agree, it's a done deal.

[jc85]

Hi Guys,

My personal thoughts are; any thing for sale should be just between the Seller and Buyer in this forum. If SRC gets too involved, SRC might as well develop into ebay or yahoo sort of webbie instead. I strongly dun think its the direction SRC should go to.

As for pictures, yes, any pic uploaded must be personal as it infringe copyrights thus getting SRC in trouble if the other party insist in taking actions.

Should there be any unhappiness with the sales conducted like product faulty or not to expectation, both party should settle it themselves. If there's any doubts on either party, maybe a PM to moderator may be sufficient since moderator can utimately ban anyone if found guilty? No need to go public as any comments from individual may not be true (benefit of the doubts).

Just my 2 cents

[Ricordia]

Willing Seller and Buyer market.

1) I totally agree that a precise description of the product is needed.

2) Followed by an pic or more of the actual product.

My past careless incident has proven some misunderstandings.

3) As of course, if there are defects on the item, spell them out before the monetary transaction takes place.

4) Buyers has the right to reject the item upon delivery if found unsatifactory.

There is no such issue of embarass to do so.

5) Similarly, Sellers has all rights to hold the sale upon delivery if there is an unsatisfactory negotiation on the price of the product at that point of time.

Of course, I do not think that delibrate misrepresentation will happen here. Sellers here should have a sound mind not to conduct such acts. As he or she will not be expecting repeated sales from unsatisfied customers.

[woonming]

My 2cents ...

List The below out .

*Item for sale

*Size

*Pick up point

*Time & Location

*Show pic if possible and state itis source..

*Price tag for item

*State the amount u have for sale example 5 frag..

*As for me i would refund the buyer if he/she arent happy with the product.

But then again itis the buyer beware market..

[bwilly]

To: jc85

oki oki.. SRC I think is not trying to get involved, but a basic set of guideline.

if u going to see pirated dvd, pornos n even subscription to online sites jumpin ard. know wat I mean?? or even there's one classads I saw, openly posting, stolen laptop for sale. who will want it here, stolen frag of corals, for sale??

oki my pt.

For if there's any disagreement over the items, both parties should settle between themselves. Also I personally hate it when some seller just don't post the pricing and (I hope not) wishes some new buggers get conned into some "marketing" gimmick via PM, such n such place is selling at this price. (eg. major

retailer, usually mark up high to cover high overheads)

Buyer kenna con should take it as a lesson learnt.

There's plenty such buggers (sellers) ard.

Only one thing I presume the mods can do is monitor any thread of commercial selling from input sent by reefers. I think one mod has not acted upon the set of rule, someone PM him on a obvious commercial selling, but no action is taken for days till the thread disappeared by itself due to SRC crashed.

I always listen to some parts of story n gather more info myself, maybe if possible a chat with the fellow (if I am buying from him) n see to take a "risk"?

So far I can says I am quite happy with all my purchases, to name a few sellers I got stuff from

cookiemunster, deepblue, clearwater, maxima, orgasbt, bawater.. to name a few. I don't sell much, only one I can remember is eh.. spicyball I think.

As for seriousness of banning, I think its a double edge weapon. Could be one bugger got alot of supporters n somehow the innocent may get wrongly accused. Unless its serious infringement of the SRC rules, some harmless flaming can't be help. Actually its a good lunch topic. wahahah..!

As for copyright issue like ricordia case, I believe it won't happens as often.

If anyone is from hardware (hwz) zone, u should recall, some years back there's a big issue of one computer outlet threaten to sue the forum, unless it release the names of the flamers. which hwz has no choice, but do so as demand. a few of the flamers were just kids and scared shxxless when they received lawyer suit.

well, the paper can't cover the fire as a chinese proverb said..

[woonming]

To: jc85

oki oki.. SRC I think is not trying to get involved, but a basic set of guideline.

if u going to see pirated dvd, pornos n even subscription to online sites jumpin ard. know wat I mean?? or even there's one classads I saw, openly posting, stolen laptop for sale. who will want it here, stolen frag of corals, for sale??

oki my pt.

For if there's any disagreement over the items, both parties should settle between themselves. Also I personally hate it when some seller just don't post the pricing and (I hope not) wishes some new buggers get conned into some "marketing" gimmick via PM, such n such place is selling at this price. (eg. major

retailer, usually mark up high to cover high overheads)

Buyer kenna con should take it as a lesson learnt.

There's plenty such buggers (sellers) ard.

Only one thing I presume the mods can do is monitor any thread of commercial selling from input sent by reefers. I think one mod has not acted upon the set of rule, someone PM him on a obvious commercial selling, but no action is taken for days till the thread disappeared by itself due to SRC crashed.

I always listen to some parts of story n gather more info myself, maybe if possible a chat with the fellow (if I am buying from him) n see to take a "risk"?

So far I can says I am quite happy with all my purchases, to name a few sellers I got stuff from

cookiemunster, deepblue, clearwater, maxima, orgasbt, bawater.. to name a few. I don't sell much, only one I can remember is eh.. spicyball I think.

As for seriousness of banning, I think its a double edge weapon. Could be one bugger got alot of supporters n somehow the innocent may get wrongly accused. Unless its serious infringement of the SRC rules, some harmless flaming can't be help. Actually its a good lunch topic. wahahah..!

As for copyright issue like ricordia case, I believe it won't happens as often.

If anyone is from hardware (hwz) zone, u should recall, some years back there's a big issue of one computer outlet threaten to sue the forum, unless it release the names of the flamers. which hwz has no choice, but do so as demand. a few of the flamers were just kids and scared shxxless when they received lawyer suit.

well, the paper can't cover the fire as a chinese proverb said..

total agree

[DeepBlue]

My 2cents ...

List The below out .

*Item for sale

*Size

*Pick up point

*Time & Location

*Show pic if possible and state itis source..

*Price tag for item

*State the amount u have for sale example 5 frag..

*As for me i would refund the buyer if he/she arent happy with the product.

But then again itis the buyer beware market..

I do agree with Ming and bwilly lah....anyway, most of the deals are rather small,I can only remember only a big transaction regarding a chiller so far that has some problem.

I believe all reefers here are in the hobby genuinely...not to make money off it....actually veri diff in reef keeping $$ U pour out is always greater than flowing in

Good to have sale lah....there are a lot of treasures in our tanks....this sharing can help to 'propagate' wonderful corals in more tanks.

Regarding criteria...

1) just be extra mindful about the details of the deal, if a skimmer has a crack, let the other party know first. I remember a good reefer: DA having such great ethics, when I wanted to buy his prizm, he let me know the details and defects in detail.

2) Photo? good to have the original pics of the actual stuff, will be helpful to let us kno when photo was taken. No hurry to sell things, so can wait until the proper photos are acquired. Can minimise misunderstandings lah

3) After deal is settle. I also believe seller is responsible to make sure buyer does not waste the trip down. Sometimes things might get damaged or condition of goods might changed. For example: I have confirmed deals with a fellow reefer abt sale of an open brain and adoption of a hawkfish, becoz their condition werent up to 'let go' standard. I apologised and decided to keep the specimens.

So, being a little more responsible helps lah.

[MarineLive]

I fully agree with many of the members here.

The sale transaction is between the seller and buyer.SRC should not be involve unless call upon by both party.

A person saw a sale ,get interested ,can always call or PM the seller for the selling price and detail.If he decide is ok then he can make arrangement when and where

the transaction should take place.

At the point of transaction the buyer should check and inspect the item before doing the transaction.

If everything is up to his expectation,then the transaction should proceed otherwise

it can be cancel due to whatever the reason or fault detect.

There should be no heart feeling by any party should a transaction fail.

Buyer or seller both don't lose anything.

Verbal or written attack on a person after a failed or sour sale should not be encouraged in a forum.

[KingFish]

Classic of every organisation, Rules and Regulations can be established easily but the tough part is to enforce it .

AT, remember what we discussed about fine tuning login process which will autoprompt for members' acknowledgement of compliance to forum R&Rs? There were some others that were brought up during our last discussions.

Perhaps its time to kick that into action. I'm sure there are some IT / Web designers in our talent pool who can provide some assistance.

[coralreef]

why not make it when they sign as members.

[bwilly]

why not make it when they sign as members.

sign on will be betta..

n then a referral n some disclaimer to protect the SRC itself..

[hoppinghippos]

I"ve been conned big time before when buying a camera lens from yahoo auctions, so I"m speaking from experience. firstly legally wise, if there is a meet up and inspection of goods, one party cannot claim to be ignorant of defects, however it is possible to claim misrepresentation if the seller makes untrue claims which the buyer takes as truth and buys WITHOUT any inspection, ie taking his word for it. which was what I did. which was how I was conned. another thing, small claims tribunal requires IC info to lodge a claim, so if you dont' have buyer's particulars, you can forget about it.

so what I propose is

1) all who are interested in buying selling, give his particulars to AT (must be verified somehow) to hold them contactable and accountable.

2) mods must be the mediators and "judge" in event of disputes. if mods are reasonable and either party refuses to cooperate then banning is in order. (reasonable like asking both parties to nullify the deal)

3) I believe all it takes is accurate descriptions, and also sellers who are willing to take back their goods within a reasonable time period like 1 week or maybe even 3 days when buyers aren't satisfied.

4) I like the current situation where concerned reefers post info which correct the seller who gave misinformation or heavily overpriced goods, I think it should be encouraged as long as no strong words are used but plain facts stated like eg seller sell for $100 but LFS sell for $20, def someone should complain.

[euphoria]

Willing Seller and Buyer market.

1) I totally agree that a precise description of the product is needed.

2) Followed by an pic or more of the actual product.

My past careless incident has proven some misunderstandings.

3) As of course, if there are defects on the item, spell them out before the monetary transaction takes place.

4) Buyers has the right to reject the item upon delivery if found unsatifactory.

There is no such issue of embarass to do so.

5) Similarly, Sellers has all rights to hold the sale upon delivery if there is an unsatisfactory negotiation on the price of the product at that point of time.

Of course, I do not think that delibrate misrepresentation will happen here. Sellers here should have a sound mind not to conduct such acts. As he or she will not be expecting repeated sales from unsatisfied customers.

I believe no.3 is not possible if the goods are not viewed in actual conditions in the tank, when it is in a more stable condition instead of tiny plastic bags.

It is not fair for the buyer to judge the condition and appearance of the coral by simply looking in the plastic bag with a stressed, shrunk or wrinkled coral. So, I think that it is not quite possible to spell out any defects before monetary transaction takes place

The rest of the points made in this thread should suffice.

[bwilly]

I believe no.3 is not possible if the goods are not viewed in actual conditions in the tank, when it is in a more stable condition instead of tiny plastic bags.

It is not fair for the buyer to judge the condition and appearance of the coral by simply looking in the plastic bag with a stressed, shrunk or wrinkled coral. So, I think that it is not quite possible to spell out any defects before monetary transaction takes place

The rest of the points made in this thread should suffice.

not really. for sale of corals. usually I will go down to the fellow place to view it. If not in the condition I want, then no need to take out. Fishes, slightly different, cause some need time to "trap". If coral are taken out in a plastic n transport around, the condition will definitely be different.

Anyway the arrangement is between the buyer n seller. Buyer should know that in plastic bag condition u won't expect the coral to bloom. Whereas in the tank, its different. if u see its not bloomin.. then dun get it, else take the seller word for it.

If u want to spare the effort of going down to view the corals at the seller place, then its your own risk. u dun go ard asking the seller, "harlo.. how come in the plastic bag this bubble is not opening ah..?" later u get a tight slap or a kick, if I am one seller I will do so..

[Hecter]

i think everyone spell it out pretty much the same..

So i dun think i need to say anymore..

One word: Honesty

[bwilly]

i think everyone spell it out pretty much the same..

So i dun think i need to say anymore..

One word: Honesty

fren..alot of dishonest bugger ard.. even my sworn bros..

we can talk abt anything, n help each other in anything..

when it comes to money I will be extremely wary..

[moron]

I guess seller has to have some responsibility on his/her products for the sake of newbies.eg.cookiemunster's bad experience on "live" rock. Thought all of us are into the same hobby and interest. At the end of the day we should be friends and make some exchanges not only in goods but idea and experienced too. This should be a healthy trade. I do give away guide a heavy load of used to be live rocks for free to one of our members. As I redo my landscaping, decided to throw half of my rocks.....don't think that making 20 or 30 bucks out of it would make me happier.

Responsibility lies to all members to SRC as well esp our Administrator who has made this possible...he...he..h.e.h.e

Not sure whats best but as long as everyone is happy with the trade it should be a happy and lasting transaction. Those who got good lobang, why not sharing. This will then keep price down for all of us.

My personal opinion.

[Ricordia]

I believe no.3 is not possible if the goods are not viewed in actual conditions in the tank, when it is in a more stable condition instead of tiny plastic bags.

It is not fair for the buyer to judge the condition and appearance of the coral by simply looking in the plastic bag with a stressed, shrunk or wrinkled coral. So, I think that it is not quite possible to spell out any defects before monetary transaction takes place

The rest of the points made in this thread should suffice.

Let this topic be a general discussion and dun get personal.

If a buyer feel that he is not comfortable for such arrangement where the coral or fish has been taken out of the tank and already packed in bags at the point of delivery,

It is perfectly no wrong to reject the item on the spot, there is not binding contract between the seller and buyer on that purchase.

However, when a buyer want to take a risk for such arrangement. Then he must be prepared to face " Buyers Beware" consequences.

Of course, we should encourage honesty in any transaction as far as possible.

[flubberina13]

Not only honesty but also integrity...thought you guys advocate it...

[darkness]

Disclaimer: I didn't read the entire thread.

One comment: when a deal is done between the seller and buyer, hope that any 3rd party should stay away from it. From my past experience, I bought something from someone and I am fine with the goods as well as the price. However, the seller got harashed due to whatever reason.

Thanks

[moron]

Agreed...it should be up to both interested party.

[MarineLive]

I guess seller has to have some responsibility on his/her products for the sake of newbies.eg.cookiemunster's bad experience on "live" rock. Thought all of us are into the same hobby and interest. At the end of the day we should be friends and make some exchanges not only in goods but idea and experienced too. This should be a healthy trade. I do give away guide a heavy load of used to be live rocks for free to one of our members. As I redo my landscaping, decided to throw half of my rocks.....don't think that making 20 or 30 bucks out of it would make me happier.

Responsibility lies to all members to SRC as well esp our Administrator who has made this possible...he...he..h.e.h.e

Not sure whats best but as long as everyone is happy with the trade it should be a happy and lasting transaction. Those who got good lobang, why not sharing. This will then keep price down for all of us.

My personal opinion.

.eg.cookiemunster's bad experience on "live" rock.

This is the third times I saw this same issue in this forum under different thread.

So what was he being cheaped off.

How much was he cheaped?

Regards

Sherman