Grounding??

[chanbi]

Hi, just wonder anyone ground their tank? Sometime i can feel some minor "bite" when i work on the sump and about a mth back when i checked, it is not due to any particular equipment but in general, most of them are leaking slight strand current (those that submerge in water). And going through the web, there are 2 school of thought. Some actually recommend grounding and some don't. I went to Sim Lim but can't find a titanium grounding probe (which will not corrode in sea water).. What do u all say?

[Achilles Tang]

I used to get electrical shocks when I put my hand in the water.

Ever since I bought my titanium grounding probe, I have never gotten any.

Different school of thoughts..... I am a believer in grounding probes.

You can try Sealife at Balestier... I bought mine from them two years ago.

[chanbi]

Sound like i must really go down to Sealife.. 2 of the things that i want may be there (grounding probe & angel frozen food). Will try to do so this evening. Thanks.

[hongqixian]

I used to get electrical shocks when I put my hand in the water.

Ever since I bought my titanium grounding probe, I have never gotten any.

Different school of thoughts..... I am a believer in grounding probes.

You can try Sealife at Balestier... I bought mine from them two years ago.

Don't buy the stainless steel coralife probe, it will eventually corrode. How much was the titanium probe?

Chanbi, I think it is pretty necessary or a good precaution. I haven't got one yet but I will soon even for my 2ft.

This is an extract from the about.com forums:

From: MO2491 Sep-24 12:51 am

To: ALL (1 of 31)

i came home last night and saw my emerald crab eating the neon goby so i took him out of the tank. this morning around 9am i went to feed my fish and i could not find any of them except for the tang and clown fish. i looked around and found all my fish dead and the clown and tang were breathing heavy and not swimming to good. around 10 am they had all died. i have a flower pot coral, flower anenome, condalactus anenome, red flame scallop, 2 hawian feather dusters, pineapple coral, and emerald and hermit crabs, plus many different snails. about 75lbs of live rock, sun polyps, and a ricordea polyp, plus some hairy mushrooms, a cleaner shrimp, and a peppermint shrimp. the test readings were ok but tomorrow i will take them again to know for sure. i added the flower pot coral a week and a half ago and does not seem to open like it did at the lfs. i am totally at awe. i have no idea what could have wiped out all my fish at once. i had them for quite sometime now any were from one month to 7 months. please if you had experience this before let me know and what it might be i would appreciate the help. i am not going to buy any fish till i can figure this out. it is a tragedy to see all my marine friends just pass on like that at once, not even a warning. i will have the water parameters tomorrow cause i have to go to work.

thank you

mike

From: CHADLEY252 Sep-24 1:19 am

To: MO2491 (2 of 31)

10808.2 in reply to 10808.1

I've only had that experience once in all my years of fishkeeping, and it was in a 50 gal. freshwater cichlid tank about five years ago -- my entire tank of fish was wiped out. There are likely several possible culprits, but the tops on the list -- for taking out a whole tank of fish that fast -- is ammonia poisoning. Even if your tank has cycled, if it's not an old (over a year old) and established tank, sometimes you can be right on the edge of disaster without knowing it, and adding one more animal to the mix can push the balance over the edge and your ammonia levels spike. My tank was carrying too much of a bioload and two of my cichlids spawned -- the babies reached a size sufficient enough to push that bioload balance too far and ammonia poisoning was the result. When that happens, your fish's gills can't extract oxygen from the water and they suffocate (hence the rapid breathing and/or swimming at the surface). I'm a big advocate of having some type of ammonia-neutralizing compound on hand for just such emergencies.

How big is your tank? How long has it been running?

As for the flowerpot coral, this can be a difficult coral to keep -- I know few people for whom these corals flourish long-term. Oftentimes, they'll do quite well for 3-4 months, then slowly start deteriorating.

So sorry to hear about your loss -- it's devastating, I know.

From: BEASTIEKEITH Sep-24 1:52 am

To: MO2491 (3 of 31)

10808.3 in reply to 10808.1

That sucks, a lot. I can only think if your water parameters are alright, maybe it was a temperture jump or fall? You said all your fish were dead, what about all the inverts? Are they still fine? If so it is all the more confusing.

From: MIKESPAROZIC Sep-24 1:58 am

To: MO2491 (4 of 31)

10808.4 in reply to 10808.1

Check out you water chemistry, if that looks good, check for stray voltage in your tank. It's a killer if it's around. Just think how would feel if you constantly got a never ending electric shock.

Take care

Mike

From: FEARLESSJIM Sep-24 3:37 am

To: MO2491 (5 of 31)

10808.5 in reply to 10808.1

I'd say it could be stray current too....I had a simular problem...I bought a new light that kept making a humming sound....I had 2 fish that were fine in this tank until I added the light...Within 3 days both fish died, but the coral and snails were fine...as was the water quality....I changed some of the water, and added 2 more fish..same thing happend....heavy breathing, hanging near the top of the tank....they died within days...i got rid of that light, added a new one, and have not had any problems at all since.......so check your tank fro stray electic current....

From: RICH99RICH Sep-24 4:08 am

To: MIKESPAROZIC (6 of 31)

10808.6 in reply to 10808.4

How do you check for stray voltage? Also, how do you fix the problem? Thanks in advance.

From: MIKESPAROZIC Sep-24 4:15 am

To: RICH99RICH (7 of 31)

10808.7 in reply to 10808.6

Have a meter. Black goes to a good ground, place the red (just the metal) into the water and check your reading. Then rinse the probe of well and dry.

More than likely it's a pump, powerhead or main.

Take care

Mike

From: CAROLINAREEF Sep-24 10:39 am

To: RICH99RICH (8 of 31)

10808.8 in reply to 10808.6

Fix with a product called Rid-Volt (i think). Its a titanium probe that connects with wire to a grounded electrical outlet via its ground. Usually less than $20 even at your LFS. I didn't check for stray, just bought one and the fish and snails seem to behave a little differently. IMO

From: MO2491 Sep-24 10:44 am

To: CHADLEY252 (9 of 31)

10808.9 in reply to 10808.2

you maybe right tomorrow i will get a couple of test kits and do some readings on the aquarium. it has been sometime since i have tested it. but it is a 55 gal tank and has been running for about 7 months or so. also i forgot to mention that i had a lettuce nudibranch and it was missing part of its body when i saw it a few weeks back and i have not seen it since. it definetly can be hard to loose some friends (fish).

From: MO2491 Sep-24 10:46 am

To: BEASTIEKEITH (10 of 31)

10808.10 in reply to 10808.3

everything seems to be fine except for the fish. i will be testing the water tomorrow after i get a couple of kits. it was fine a few weeks ago.

From: MO2491 Sep-24 10:49 am

To: MIKESPAROZIC (11 of 31)

10808.11 in reply to 10808.4

thanks mike,

i will check for stray voltage also. but all of my eguipment is only 7 months old. what should the stray voltage limit be?

From: FEARLESSJIM Sep-24 1:36 pm

To: MO2491 (12 of 31)

10808.12 in reply to 10808.11

zero...you want zero current in the tank......even a small amount care be hurtful...just think how you would feel if you were always getting shocked all day long.....The light i had that cuased the deaths in my tank was brand new, it had a short in it though....

From: MIKESPAROZIC Sep-24 8:45 pm

To: MO2491 (13 of 31)

10808.13 in reply to 10808.11

You want zero, it does not matter on the age. Do a search on posts by Tangster1 he gave good instructions on how to make a grounding probe.

Take care

Mike

From: BEASTIEKEITH Sep-24 9:55 pm

To: MO2491 (14 of 31)

10808.14 in reply to 10808.9

I am not sure but when nudibranchs get stressed and/or die don't they poisin your tank, maybe that is just cucumbers.

From: LC204 Sep-24 11:22 pm

To: MO2491 (15 of 31)

10808.15 in reply to 10808.9

Your Nudibranch may be the problem. Some nudibranches secrete a poison when they die but im not sure about the lettuce. You may have a big problem if so because Im not sure how you get the poison out of the tank. If it were me I would lean toward the Nudibranch as the problem. Make sure there is enough oxygen getting inot the tank also. Good Luck and Im sure someone that knows about the Lettuce Nudibranch will write in.

From: STEVE1S Sep-24 11:38 pm

To: LC204 (16 of 31)

10808.16 in reply to 10808.15

I had a lettuce nudi back a few years ago. I was not aware of their sensitivity to nitrates and it literally disintigrated over night. Their was never any problem with poisoning and no fish or any other animal for that matter was affected.

Cheers

Steve

From: LC204 12:29 am

To: MO2491 (17 of 31)

10808.17 in reply to 10808.1

Look at this site.

http://www.wetwebmedia.com/nudibran.htm

From: MO2491 7:27 am

To: MIKESPAROZIC (18 of 31)

10808.18 in reply to 10808.13

i checked my stray current today and it seems i have 15v in the system. also my water parameters are as follows 1024sal,8.0ph,0 phosphate,+520calcium.10nitrate,7dkh,0nitrite,1.0ammonia. i talked to my lfs and they seem to think it may have been an air freshner that was sprayed or something but the only thing i can figure was my girlfriend was burning a candle that makes the house smell really good the night before they all died. i can not figure this out. as far as the current i unplugged one item at a time and the current went down slowly as each item was unplug and i can't afford to buy new equipment again and have the same problem. would a ground probe take care of this current and can i put it in the sump instead of the aquarium.

thanks

mike

From: MO2491 7:31 am

To: STEVE1S (19 of 31)

10808.19 in reply to 10808.16

thanks steve for the info so that eliminates that idea that the nudibranch may have been the problem, also i found that one fish did survive so far it is an eye lash blenny and that is the only one, i removed all but one fish that i can not find, i saw him today.

From: SushiGirl (DEBEDWARD1) 9:55 am

To: MO2491 (20 of 31)

The eyelash blennie & inverts may have survived because they were touching rock or sand. I lost all my fish to an electrical storm (two different times in 2 different tanks) and all my inverts lived in both cases.

MIKESPAROZIC 10:54 am

To: MO2491 (21 of 31)

10808.21 in reply to 10808.18

Did you tell them about the 15 volts? Yes, get a ground probe and put it in the sump. Burning a candle or spraying something in the air did not do it. It's the voltage. IF you think 15 Volts is not that much take a 9 volt battery and touch both terminals to you tongue. No picture living with that all the time, but only stronger.

From: MO2491 11:08 am

To: MIKESPAROZIC (22 of 31)

10808.22 in reply to 10808.21

hey mike i did tell them about the voltage but they just shrugg it off and tried to sell me a uv and some differrent types of filter media. which then i became very sceptical of how much merit there advice had. i would have walked out with 300.00 worth of stuff if i listen to them. i am going to order a ground probe off the internet tonight cause the lfs around here do not carry them and a lot of other things to say the least.

From: MO2491 11:15 am

To: SushiGirl (DEBEDWARD1) (23 of 31)

10808.23 in reply to 10808.20

hi sushigirl,

could you elaborate some more on what you are saying. we had a bad lighting storm that night could that have anything to do with it. seems like everthing here is pointing to the stray voltage in the tank. although we did not loose power. boy this hobby can be difficult at times. i did a water change today of six gallons and tomorrow i will do another of ten gallons just to be safe. what do you think of that? good idea?

i will listen to any advice you may. also did you see my water parameters on a previous message do you think the ammonia being a little high maybe due to the fish dying?

thanksmike

Yeah, I'd do water changes to try to get that ammonia down...my guess would be it was from the fish dying.

The first fish I lost (3 gallon tank) was during a lightning storm/tornadic storm before I had any surge protectors. My power blipped out and right back on, then a while later I noticed my fish was swimming upside down, didn't take long for it to die after that. I was a little busy worrying about the tornado siren going off by my house, so didn't do anything right away (not that I could've done anything).

The second time I was out of the country and there was a severe storm again. My fish sitter came in the next morning to no lights (lights hooked up to one surge protector, all other equipment hooked up to another surge protector) -- all the other equipment was running. The light surge protector was tripped. All fish were dead (man, did HE feel bad!). The power apparently didn't go out that time since he didn't have to reset the microwave or cable box or clocks.

So after fishing out all the dead fish, of course my ammonia etc. went up and I lost all but one hermit, 1 strawberry crab, and a couple of snails (no way he could make water fast enough to do a water change). Needless to say, there was a cyano outbreak that he took care of very well by suctioning it out, changing some water & starting a filter running to supplement the skimmer. I was at the top end of the bioload for my tank as it was, so the deaths just tipped it right over the edge.

Since you've had voltage readings in your tank anyway, I'd say that's the source, but maybe the storm didn't help any...

MO2491 11:42 am

To: SushiGirl (DEBEDWARD1) (25 of 31)

10808.25 in reply to 10808.24

thanks for the info it is nice to know we have people willing to help each other and its all due to the internet and they said this would be a bad thing. i to am starting to get some red slime at this time. i would like to say thanks to you all for the great advice i have recieved on this issue.

If you have stray voltage created by a bad appliance, a grounding probe will do more harm than good. Grounding your tank will create electrical current between the bad appliance and the grounding probe. Electrical current is what kills things, not voltage.

This is not to say you don't have electrical current running through your water column presently. You could very well be generating current from your bad appliance to a lower potential elsewhere, on another device for example. But the amount of current presently generated is less than what will be generated by placing a grounding probe into your water column. This is because the grounding probe will offer a lower potential (earth ground) than that offered by another device...

Fix/replace the offending appliances, then add a grounding probe if you wish. Be aware that grounding probes can mask problems with equipment... A voltage spike caused by an electrical storm could surely knock out some appliances. Place all appliances on a surge protector power strip which is plugged into a GFIC protected plug.

Good luck.

MIKESPAROZIC 8:37 pm

To: MO2491 (27 of 31)

10808.27 in reply to 10808.22

Time to find a new LFS, I still say get the ground probe.

Take care

Mike

From: MO2491 9:30 pm

To: NIXONNOXIN unread (28 of 31)

10808.28 in reply to 10808.26

HELLO NIXON,

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY AN APPLIANCE? DO YOU MEAN POWER HEAD, PUMPS ETC. WHEN I TESTED FOR THE STRAY VOLTAGE I UNPLUGED ONE ITEM AT A TIME AND I DID NOT GET MUCH OF A CHANGE, THE STRAY VOLTAGE WENT DOWN AS EACH ITEM WAS UNPLUGED. I HAVE TWO POWER HEADS, 300W HEATER, SKIMMER RUN BY A RIO, RETURN PUMP FOR SUMP AND OFCOURSE THE LIGHTING SYSTEM. IS THERE A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF VOLTAGE EACH ITEM IS ALLOWED TO HAVE ENTERING THE WATER OR IS THERE A TOTAL LIMIT TO HAVE IN THE TANK? ALL THESE PUMPS ARE SUBMERSIBLE, IN THE WATER. I HAVE EVERYTHING PLUGEDD INTO TWO SURGE STRIPS AND THE WHOLE SYSTEM IS ON ITS OWN CIRCUT WHICH I HAD INSTALLED TO RUN THE TANK EQUIPMENT (20AMP CIRCUIT).

THANKS MIKE

HEY MIKE,

LFS ARE HARD TO COME BY ESPECIALLY GOOD ONES WITH PEOPLE WHO REALLY KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT. THE PROBLEM IS THERE ARE A FEW HERE AND ALL ARE ABOUT THE SAME AND PETCO WHICH HAS ARRIVED HERE IS EVEN WORST. JUST KIDS THAT ARE TRYING TO COLLECT A PAY CHECKWORK THERE, NOT THE KIDS FAULT. I ORDERED THE GROUND PROBE TODAY WITH SOME EQUIPMENT FOR MY OTHER TANK THAT I AM GOING TO SET UP AS F/O.

THANKS

MIKE

MIKESPAROZIC 9:46 pm

To: MO2491 unread (30 of 31)

10808.30 in reply to 10808.29

Glad I could help

Take care

Mike

[chanbi]

I went down to Sealife last evening (heavy rain man!). They are selling the probe at $32 but manage to bargain to $28. Check through some of their stuff and they are generally more expensive.. However they do put in hard work in cleaning their tanks and so on. And of course they sound pretty knowledgable as well. Maybe that is their selling point?

Btw, they are also no longer selling angel frozen food.

QiXian, thanks for the information. After much thought, i am also planning to put in the probe (although the theory of having a differential voltage difference and generate much higher current also make sense). Anyway our home circuit breaker should trip when more than 30mA. Should be ok.

[hongqixian]

I went down to Sealife last evening (heavy rain man!). They are selling the probe at $32 but manage to bargain to $28. Check through some of their stuff and they are generally more expensive.. However they do put in hard work in cleaning their tanks and so on. And of course they sound pretty knowledgable as well. Maybe that is their selling point?

Btw, they are also no longer selling angel frozen food.

QiXian, thanks for the information. After much thought, i am also planning to put in the probe (although the theory of having a differential voltage difference and generate much higher current also make sense). Anyway our home circuit breaker should trip when more than 30mA. Should be ok.

You're welcome. Their tanks are nice, but their corals mostly look a little brownish.