Nitrate Problem .

[hammy]

Nitrate occurs through the oxidation of nitrite which essentially come from ammonia.Almost all marine organisms produce ammonia... yes as long as u see the gills of your fishes moving, ammonia is been produced. In a nutshell, ammonia-->nitrite-->nitrate-->nitrogen gases

Ammonia and nitrite is very toxic to marine organism even at low level. However, luckily in the nature, aerobic bacteria enable ammonia and nitrite to be oxidise to a less harmful nitrate ions. Yes ,to complete the ANN cycle, anaerobic bateria will continue to convert nitrate ions to nitrogen gas and release to the atmosphere. More often then not, the last process was not sucessfully converted completely and was allowed to build up in a marine aquarium.

As my tank is small, nitrate can be built up very very fast if i do not take any precautions.I decide to write some notes to share my experience on how to control nitrate hoping to benefit some reefers who might face the same problem i used to face.

1)Check what you add in your tank.

Nitrate come from ur tap water, Additive, top up water and saltmix.As for mi. i used to buy Life distilled water (1ppm from TDS meter) from NTUC but i sorta feel that it is too tedious for me and i have switch to DI water which yield good result too. With that i change with Marine environment Salt which i find it to have super solubility and credibility. Personally i hve used Corallife, RedSea, Coral Marine, and Marine Environment, and a good reputable saltmix is needed to ensure that no nitrate is included in your water change.

Additive like Tropic Marine and Grotec is good too. I always have this thinking that german will not risk their reputation.

2)Buy the largest skimmer.

I would rate skimmer to be a life saver for nitrate. Although there are 2 schools of thoughts saying that overskimming is not good ( skim out trace element) while the other refute the statement, i personally feel that a reefer should go for the best skimmer he can afford for his tank to prevent nitrate build up. A good skimmer will solve the problem at the root and remove the DOC even before the ANN cycle can start. But of course a good and reliable skiimer is needed to achieve it. I have used prizm, weipro, biostar flotor and deltec and again i have concluded that good skimmer are not cheap.

3) Used Live araganite sands.

'Jack, all sand look the sand what !' well, denitrification can occur for aragonita sand even at above 3inches with relatively fast period as i have personally witness in a reefer's place. For normal grade 0 or 1 , normally 6 inches is need to ensure DSB can be employed to effectively remove nitrate which need a relatively longer period (6months)

4)AZ-NO3

This stuff really work!!! But i will advice to use it only for emergancy. An alkalinity of at least 9 and above ,with a superpowerful skimmer is needed for it to work. Underdosing is better than overdosing IMO as overdosing will cause clumps of black patches to appear on liverocks which is essentially colonies of bacterias. External aeration of the tank is needed and UV and carbon need to be switch off/remove in order for AZ-NO3 to work effectively. This require 30days for nitrate to return to zero. But it will not solve the root of the problems.

5)Overcrowding.

I once heard from another reefer that controlling nitrate is the easiest. =) How? He replied' No Fishes lor' True enough, our nitrate build up relatively fast, mainly because our filtration is not able to cope with the bioload we add to that tank , . I used to have 11 fishes in my 2 feet cube, but decided to let it stay at 4 to make my life a bit easier after i moved into SPS.

6)Testkits.

A reliable testkit is needed to get a accurate nitrate reading. I have used tetra, SARA, tropic marine before. I used to get 100-200ppm of nitrate when i am using tetra/SARA and these testkit gives total nitrogen-nitrate reading which i was unsure of. After obtaining the result, divide the result by 4.4 to get the true nitrate reading. A good testkit will have an expiry date and is measured in mg/l instead of ppm. There are roughly 2.5% difference depending on ur salinity.

7) Wavemaker.

Now u tell mi wavemaker help to reduce nitrate.. u must be kidding mi!!!!

heh heh, yes it does help but bringing your detrius to ur skimmer and filter before it is left to accumulate and break down into nitrate. I have used a tunze 6060 for my 2 feet cube and am thinking of another tunze nano haha =) This guy is crazy!

8)PURA nitratelock

I used to use this product in my canister but i never know whether this product work for me.

9)Canister.

I am a canister user but have decided to decom it as i am a lazy person. Wash ur canister at least once fornightly or else ur canister will give u nitrate problem. i washed it weekly.

10)The natural way

ChengHock from Aquamart once told me that keeping large amount of softies like ricordea florida and yuma help to lower nitrate. Yes i do believe him and posted similar topic asking reefer for opinion before..

11) Time for you guys to ADD!!!! i do know of bare bottom to control nutrient but i have never tried it before so ...

my nitrate reading is currently undetachable to <5mg/l using tropic marine and hope my little notes help a few reefers here.

cheers.

[jervismun]

Well done Hammy... a very information first-hand piece of work...

I agree with you in almost every aspects (except those that I do not have direct experience on such as AZ-NO3, PURA and Canister).

For test kits, I am currently using both Tropic Marin and Salifert... both provide me with the same reading with +/- 5% accuracy.

To add to your list:

1) A Bioball-based Denitrator - Previously in my home tank, I introduced an Aquamedic NR1000 Denitrator to remove NO3 from my relatively small tank. The result is satisfactory as I overstocked the tank at the later stage. NO3 remains <5ppm for the entire life span of the tank. However, I was being lucky also as a lot of reefers attempted a few times in order to get the denitrator to work properly. It's definitely not a toy for newbies.

2) Refugium - This is something that I will be exploring fully very soon. Will share with you guys the result but I believe success stories are everywhere... just google it!

3) Live Rock - Anaerobic bacterias are responsible of consuming NO3, releasing Nitrogen gas. Anaerobic bacterias thrive in oxygen low area such as deep inside Live Rocks. Therefore, if you have sufficient amount of healthy Live Rocks within your system... the rocks themselves are denitrator in their own rights.

Will leave some for other reefers

[gunzo]

Jervis, life rocks do not host anaerobic bacteria on their own ..

One of the contention was Life rocks on 3-4inch sandbeds create an area of low / dead spots and create an ideal spot to germinate the anaerobic bacterias..

Couple of things to add as I am also fighting the N monster .. mine obviously due to overcrowding

My preference is El Naturel(!) as it introduces least amount of chemical disturbance to the ecosystem ..

My primary method for control right now

1. A set of cleaning crews to clear the overfed fish crap and leftover foods ..

The nice thing about them is they work at night and in the morning, the sandbed and everything else looks pretty neat and tidy ..

2. Refugium (just started with a small batch of seed chaetos )

Macro Algaes are good in a sense as they also provide home to a host of other inhabitants..the seeder algae I got from a buddy came with brittle stars, amphipods, atapsia .. which are really good cleaning crews

2. Remote DSB

That's my MAIN method for controlling NO3 .. there's a few things that you need to watch out for when attempting a remote DSB ..

a. While initially setting up and colonising the sandbed .. you need an alternative form of NO3 control, otherwise you'll experience a spike that can kill off your LS and corals..

b. You need sufficient flow of water over the sandbed to ensure you get the maximum benefits

c. It takes about 1 month to remove NO3 to a controllable level, but almost a year for your NO3 to reach 0 (yes .. seems like it can reach 0ppm NO3 with just DSB)

For all that, with a real estate space of only 0.25m^3 with close to 25 fishes

I think the DSB is doing a darn good job of maintaining NO3 at 20ppm(salifert and tropic marine)

One more food for thought using chemical denitrators (both carbon based and sulphur) .. this is stopping me from going this route .. so correct me if I'm wrong..

Sulphur - the effluent requires controlled output .. otherwise and low pH or poisonous gases may cause a system crash.. something which I don't have time for..

Carbon based - Once the culture is established, you need to continuously kept it fed (which is weird as I always thought NO3 was the food).. again .. you can lose the entire colony and your hard work if you forget to feed them ..

[hammy]

Jervis, life rocks do not host anaerobic bacteria on their own ..

One of the contention was Life rocks on 3-4inch sandbeds create an area of low / dead spots and create an ideal spot to germinate the anaerobic bacterias..

Couple of things to add as I am also fighting the N monster .. mine obviously due to overcrowding

My preference is El Naturel(!) as it introduces least amount of chemical disturbance to the ecosystem ..

My primary method for control right now

1. A set of cleaning crews to clear the overfed fish crap and leftover foods ..

The nice thing about them is they work at night and in the morning, the sandbed and everything else looks pretty neat and tidy ..

2. Refugium (just started with a small batch of seed chaetos )

Macro Algaes are good in a sense as they also provide home to a host of other inhabitants..the seeder algae I got from a buddy came with brittle stars, amphipods, atapsia .. which are really good cleaning crews

2. Remote DSB

That's my MAIN method for controlling NO3 .. there's a few things that you need to watch out for when attempting a remote DSB ..

a. While initially setting up and colonising the sandbed .. you need an alternative form of NO3 control, otherwise you'll experience a spike that can kill off your LS and corals..

b. You need sufficient flow of water over the sandbed to ensure you get the maximum benefits

c. It takes about 1 month to remove NO3 to a controllable level, but almost a year for your NO3 to reach 0 (yes .. seems like it can reach 0ppm NO3 with just DSB)

For all that, with a real estate space of only 0.25m^3 with close to 25 fishes

I think the DSB is doing a darn good job of maintaining NO3 at 20ppm(salifert and tropic marine)

One more food for thought using chemical denitrators (both carbon based and sulphur) .. this is stopping me from going this route .. so correct me if I'm wrong..

Sulphur - the effluent requires controlled output .. otherwise and low pH or poisonous gases may cause a system crash.. something which I don't have time for..

Carbon based - Once the culture is established, you need to continuously kept it fed (which is weird as I always thought NO3 was the food).. again .. you can lose the entire colony and your hard work if you forget to feed them ..

Thanks bro gunzo and jervismun for the input.More guys ! How about zeovit, barebottom or mangrove ... haha

[jervismun]

Jervis, life rocks do not host anaerobic bacteria on their own ..

One of the contention was Life rocks on 3-4inch sandbeds create an area of low / dead spots and create an ideal spot to germinate the anaerobic bacterias..

[jervismun]

[jervismun]

[hammy]

Yup guys , stocked up CURED live rock from reefers to help denitrification

Thanks bro Jervis for the wonderful Links.

[gunzo]

interesting articles jervis .. noticed alot of contradictions ..

life rocks , nooks and crannies , porous etc does not really goes down well with anaerobic

Anyway .. if one decides to use LR for nitrate control .. I for one would love to know if it works !!

Thanks

[jervismun]

Anyway .. if one decides to use LR for nitrate control .. I for one would love to know if it works !!

Hi bro Gunzo

Since this article is under General Reefkeeping... we do have the responsibility to project a certain theory loud and clear.

Using LR as part comprehensive nutrient control (ie. Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate) has been tested for decades now. Perhaps those internet links are not too convincing to you.

Here's a part where Anthony Calfo and Robert Fenner clearly confirm the claim in their book "Reef Invertebrates, An Essential Guide to Selection, Care and Compatibility" page 13.

On the other hand, I would also like to learn from you. Perhaps all the books I've been reading were outdated. If you have some new information and facts about "How LR cannot possibly help reduce Nitrate"... do share with us here. But appreciate if you can highlight those parts instead of providing us some links

[pingpong]

Thanks Hammy for starting this very useful thread, esp for newbies like me. Though there is no live stock in my current main tank, i can foresee i will be overstocking it. i mean so many nice fishes, it is just too hard to resist....

[yvoneysl]

My way of controlling NO3/ PO4… by private first class newbie

Slow in typing so did a dwg less words

Stage 1- Mechanical filter

Pre filter such as micron bag/ filter wood/ filter net to remove organic matter.

Skimmer to further remove them before the ANN cycle can start.

Stage 2- water return chamber

Use powerful pump enough to T-off to stage 3/4 to recycle the water.

Stage 3- Remote refugium

Add a DSB or plenum system & lots of macro algaes to control NO3

Macro algaes not only absorb NO3 but also PO4 ( for every 16 parts of NO3 they take in 1 part of PO4)

making P04 the limiting nutrient for unwanted algae growth.

Stage 4- chemical filter

To control No3, po4 in the initial stage before the refugium kick-in.

once the refugium mature, replace the medium with carbon alone

(save money on PO4 remover)

Stage 5- YOU

most importance is you as the slave must perform periodically water changes to ensure optimal water parameters

[johntanjm]

As usual yvonneysl with your fancy drawings. Very well thought out sump. I would go for a very strong stage 1. anerobic bacteria is the hardest to nurture.

Also today i was at kino reading aquarium books. they mentoined something about reverse under substrate filtratoin. instead of drawing water from under the substrate, water is drawn from the water colum and pumped under the subtrate so this way no dirt will be trapped in the sand. pretty smart eh? what you guys think of this?

[Dazza]

yeah bro john ... i think the method u mentioned was pretty popular in the early '80s when hobbielists were looking for a better system than theh original under gravel filter... its the undergravel but with a water flow the other way rite.... abit problematic if u use grade 0 or 1 sand tho...

[gunzo]

Hi bro Gunzo

Since this article is under General Reefkeeping... we do have the responsibility to project a certain theory loud and clear.

Using LR as part comprehensive nutrient control (ie. Ammonia, Nitrite, Nitrate) has been tested for decades now. Perhaps those internet links are not too convincing to you.

Here's a part where Anthony Calfo and Robert Fenner clearly confirm the claim in their book "Reef Invertebrates, An Essential Guide to Selection, Care and Compatibility" page 13.

On the other hand, I would also like to learn from you. Perhaps all the books I've been reading were outdated. If you have some new information and facts about "How LR cannot possibly help reduce Nitrate"... do share with us here. But appreciate if you can highlight those parts instead of providing us some links

maybe you should then search more matured forums where people have been reefing for more than 20 years ..

There is no 1 fixed way ..

You insist LR does the cycle well and keeps it well .. that's part of the formula ..

There are people who insist there's no real need for LR .. it contains all the unwanted creatures you'd ever find

I say DSBs are fine

Yet there are people who insist DSBs contribute to nitrate and phospate buildups

WHY I'm not receptive to LR because you have to read in CONTEXT to what is written .. We do not know what type of LRs we are getting .. and only certain LRs (especially those found in Carribean) have the necessary structure to hold anaerobic bacteria ..

Generally .. those available to us in this region are not the types that will be conducive in introducing denitrifying bacteria ..

Actually .. yes .. most of the books now are reprints or outdated in their own right keke .. you'll never know .. maybe someday I'll be reading a book written by you 90% undiscovered territories we know so little about it's bound there'll be trials and errors since we want a little of that 90% in our homes

There's many ways to skin a cat

Think its time to go "I'm right and you're not wrong" way again

We lay down what we think are ways to control nitrates .. and let others decide what they want to pick up ..

[gunzo]

Cannot edit my post ..

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/...ature/index.php

on why I am hesitant and doubtful of LR as a denitrifying element in our aquariums .. so yeah .. probably whatever you quote is correct .. in context

[jervismun]

Jervis, life rocks do not host anaerobic bacteria on their own ..

Please re-read your statement... I think you are missing (or dodging) the point

[jervismun]

There are people who insist there's no real need for LR .. it contains all the unwanted creatures you'd ever find 

That's why I recently suggested a reefer to start a new tank with Artificial Rocks... but then sooner or later those artificial rocks will be:

"The inside of the live rock would be a good place for them, and it appears that they are probably there (Risk and Muller, 1983). It would seem that the assumption that live rock contains the appropriate denitrifying bacteria is therefore valid"

As quoted from your link above

[Melvyn_Tan]

Jervis can't afford to lose. Let him win this "argument" bah.

[hammy]

Wow guys ,

Take a look at the articles posted by bro gunzo, a real insight...

i believe anaerobic bacteria does reside within subsurface of porous liverock in low oxygen area.

But of course at the same time, it is not wise to TOTALLY rely on LR for denitrification as in most of the case not efficient enough.

Thanks bro yvonesyl for sharing too ...

[jervismun]

Jervis can't afford to lose. Let him win this "argument" bah.

This is not an argument but a debate... how can one loose when there are so many studies and evidents proving the validity of his belief?

What bro Hammy said is absolutely right (which I agree from the very beginning)... no one shall rely solely on LR for denitrification but a series of measures mentioned here.

And has anyone mention feeding habit?

Feeding Method/Habit: Another way to remove unwanted nutrients is by removing the water that comes with frozen mysis and brine shrimp. They are extremely rich in nutrients.

Choice of LS: This is also a crucial consideration... it's all about balance in the end of the day

[mansiz]

LRs really does contain anaerobic bacteria, but the amount is not sufficient as compared to DSB. But bear in mind that only large rocks will provide you with a certain amount of A.B, so having a large number of small rocks to reduce NO3 is not recommended, denitrification rarely occurs in small rocks. If all the things we are trying to do to reduce NO3 is to keep ourselves free from changing water, then reduce the amount of fishes will be the best choice. I still vote for plants/algaes to do the job as compared to LRs, since they are a lot cheaper and they does the job even better, why not?

[madmac]

Good point, Mansiz!

Denitrification, is mostly wanted, however the process is more difficult to apply than simply understanding. Yes you most definitely need large rocks... think very large, like bigger than what ur two hands can handle easily and it cannot be too porous.

The real difficulty IMO, with using LR for denitirifcation is the balance in keeping it "clean" and yet anerobic at the same time. If its clean, then you have clean water (the hallmark of every good tank) and very good flow around the rocks and there's lots O2, high pH, ; and conversely if its dirty, then very bad flow, low pH, and then things start to rot on the rocks, soon algae comes out, etc.... (things you don't want in a closed system reef tank)

Thats why denitrification the process requires specialise equipment, with just the right amt of adjustment for flow, and feeding the bacteria, darkness, and patience... the entire process is quite inefficient. ie. you'll need a very large volumn set of apparatus to convert the quick nitrates produced. Most systems simply cannot cope and test still registers +ve NO3.

This is jus my personal opionion, as I find it odd 'cause the entire process before it becomes the gaseous N2, it has to go thru to NO2(nitrite) first.

If denitrification happens in your tank, than good for you... it is IMO, better to avoid the entire process... Nitrate(NO3) is very reactive and wanted by a great many 'things'. Even before macro algae, the first things to consume them is bacteria and micro algae(phytoplankton).

Edited December 12, 2006 by madmac