Newbie question on Starting New

[Caleb]

Hi folks,

this is a pretty cool site... with loads of information. And the people generally are friendier and less 'predatorial' than from some other site..

Anyway, I'm raring to go setup a marine tank of my own, I recently purchased a 2ft mature system and basically it was pretty much 'plug and play' however that was housed in my office...

Now i happen to chance upon another 2ft tank bare tank.. and this time, i am thinking of doing it all by myself. Live rocks, coral sand and filteration system...

I do have some experience with aquarium.. but of the fresh water sort...

But marine aquaria, becuase of the salt, have very different demands and the rules are alot more complex and can be punishing if mistakes are made or if there is too much ignorance..

Being based in Singapore, and having a limited budget, my first question would be of the financial sort:

1. Should I get live rocks from the farms or from LHS? What is the price of live rocks? I understand that live rocks can exist in 'exquisite' forms.. can anyone elaborate?

2. filteration system... the first fish that I am attempting would be a lionfish. And it will be of the dwarf variation... having said this, I know that the filteration system would thus have to be a solid one.. able to handle the load..

Thus.. I am planning to attach my powerhead to a surface skimmer which will output to a OHF box... with white sponges on the top.. trickling down to CRs and Lavarocks... I might have a large or medium sized hermit crab to do some cleaning and also a small starfish.. and that should be all for the live stock of the tank...

Any comments.. recommendations.. advice... will be greatly appreciated!

[hongqixian]

Being based in Singapore, and having a limited budget, my first question would be of the financial sort:

1. Should I get live rocks from the farms or from LHS? What is the price of live rocks? I understand that live rocks can exist in 'exquisite' forms.. can anyone elaborate?

You can source for live rocks from both farms and LFSes, it doesn't matter where the rock comes from but rather the quality of the rock. Avoid blocky types that have a lot of nuisance algae and pick porous well-shaped pieces that fit nicely together.

The rock should have a lot of red and purple coralline algae too and it should not smell rotten. Average price is from $5 to $10 per kg depending on supplier and quality. Usually a 2ft can fit 20+ kg of rocks, but try not to make it too cramped and the rock shapes and your interior designing skills will determine how the whole thing looks. Live rock can come in branching forms such as Tonga branch rocks, those look good and you might have to source around for what looks best.

Rocks require a curing period of about 2 -3 weeks, do read up. Unless you buy rock that has been pre-cured already at the suppliers.

The OHF boxes really splash a lot of salt water, are you sure you want to use those? The salt spray is terrible and sticky. You could consider a canister filter for your setup or hang on filters. In your case, a protein skimmer is not that necessary but it makes life a lot easier and nicer, try looking for a second hand hang on skimmer such as the Red Sea Prizm on the Pasar Malam if you want to save money. Second hand ones can be sold at $65 to $100 plus.

Your filtration will be fine and low maintenance with good live rocks and a hang-on or canister filter as well as a skimmer.

Your planned livestock is fine. Slightly understocked but that just means that your water stays cleaner for longer (esp with the lionfish's meaty foods) and you can afford to be less stringent about maintenance.

Don't be afraid to ask around and your careful planning is admirable

[Caleb]

hi HQX,

thanks for your advice.. i am aware of the salt spray so I will be using a submerged rain bar. I am intending to add an canister.. but I believe that canisters work best as Biological filters... and with the live rocks.. and adequate lighting its should be all systems go!

I am planning to do a 'mountain' landscape with the live rocks, preferring my lion to swim around.. so i don't plan to have more than 5 kilos of rock in the tank. I am using a 5 plan tank.. and the glass is not all that strong..

cleaning the tank, of the algae will be a big concern.. so the rock placement will have to be spot on..

Any idea, or is there a formula for how much live rock to put in a tank to be minimally functional ?

[hongqixian]

The rain bar is a great idea

I have used five plan tanks before; they're strong enough generally but you're right, it's much easier to clean the glass if the rock is not leaning on it.

There's no formula for live rock sufficiency, it's really a matter of surface area for bacterial growth. Given time, your bacterial population will generally adjust to suit your tank needs, so it is not really an issue.

5 kilos should be fine, I think that 20kg is a severe overestimate. I have a 2ft (45cm tall) myself but I got the rocks four years ago so I've forgotten what the weight was like

[Caleb]

I have a 5 footer at home, its housing a red, 6 tigers and 3 FF and a bichir..

the bioload should be quite heavy.. but with the help of a canister, a 4 ft OHF, 9 trays, plus making the tank a planted.. I've kinda honed in on getting the water rite.

One thing I learn from freshwater, and i kinda believe that is true with marine as well, as that you need to know what the water parameters are. As mentioned earlier, ignorance or the lack of knowledge will be the worst thing to happen, wasted effort as well as innocent fatalities....

I like your reply on the live rock and how the bact will multiply to suit the tank.. It makes sense... I am pretty excited about this.. but I am definitely taking the slow road.. prefering to learn more from others.. then to learn from my own silly mistakes..

[hongqixian]

haha bichirs are cool. one thing to note though is that freshwater tanks are much more forgiving because plants do uptake toxic wastes, and ammonia is more toxic in saltwater conditions than freshwater (think it's the alkalinity, i forgot).

do post photos of your tank when its done

[Caleb]

Any recommendation on which brand of salt to use for the salt water? If will also be most helpful, to add where I can get that brand. I tend to go to C328, can I get it from there?

[hongqixian]

coralife is usable but not that good. actually since you go to clementi 328, why don't you take bus 154 down the AYE to hong leong gardens from the bus stop beside the MRT and pay Henry at marinelife a visit? He carries several decent brands.

i personally prefer tropic marin pro reef salt, it has better solubility than the normal tropic marin salt. There are some very nice SPS tanks featured here that use it too. I believe others have had good results with Marine Environment salt too. Stick with a good salt, it is the basis of your tank system.

[blueheaven]

For me, I've been using Coralife salt since I started reefing

Anyway, many reefers do not advocate the use of canisters as the detritus (organic matter) that is caught there will decompose and add nutrients into your system.

However, I've had piles of detritus in my refugium and I don't see much of a problem but that might be also due to my excessive skimming.

Since you're experienced with freshwater before, I believe that changing the media on a regular basis is already part of your schedule

Good luck on your system

[Caleb]

Hi BlueHaven,

In my freshwater system, as mentioned in my previous post, the canister is used as a biological filter.. therefore, I took out all the sponges and plonked in an insane amount of CRs and bact houses... therefore, i won't even bother about cleaning it because any rotting thing will probably be good for the Bact in there.

For the setup that I have in mind, and for any setup on the subject of Aquaria, I'm a firm believer of making the environment as close to nature as possible and therefore, water quality is a huge issue to me. Thus, as marine setup goes, I am in the process of finding out what sort of salt to use and also the types of creatures to introduce to take care of the bioload cycling. All in the hope that I can setup a system with good water parameters.

Do include any advice or experiences or lessons that you have learnt in the past in this thread.. for sure, with a thread title like mine, others who are reading may also learn from me!

Thanks for your advice...

[Caleb]

Hi BlueHeaven

and thanks for your advice.

As mentioned in my previous post, my canister for my 5 footer is more of a biological filter, I remove the sponges and add an insane amount of CRs and bact house... so when dead debris is sucked it, its still beneficial to the bact in there.

One of the things that I have learnt in freshwater, is the importance of the water. Its the essence of keeping good and healthy (and hopefully) happy fish.

Thus, in my current planning stage, I am asking as much as I can.. and learning as much as I can.. so things like where to buy, what to buy, WHY must buy.. these are the questions tat many starters would wanna know too...

I am sure, much can be learnt just going through the stickies at the forum start page.. but I also believe that knowledge and experiences are never exhaustive.. therefore, for the benefit of newbies (like myself) who happen to read this thread.. any contribution to this thread would surely be greatly appreciated !

I had a fren who has been keeping a marine tank for about a year, and all the while he just kept on topping up the water.. and the salt that he used was corallife.. so I guess it should be pretty ok.. of course, in the meantime, I need to also understand why there are people why feel that its inferior.. any comments on this ?

[Caleb]

Anyone can advice on coral sand...

are there different grades and sizes ? (just like in freshwater landscaping) and what is the general cost of it.. how much is required for a 2 ft tank.. and where to get them (cheaply!)

Thanking you in advance!

[hongqixian]

Hi there again,

for saltwater, pls clean the canister (by rinsing out all the sediment and dirt in a bucket of saltwater) if you use it like blueheaven said because the aerobic bacteria in the rocks, sand, any surfaces, are supposed to convert toxic ammonia (which is already dissolved) into nitrites and then nitrates, which are less toxic, but build up to become harmful (fish colors begin fading, corals look unhappy etc).

That's why water changes, algae in refugiums and denitrators are used to convert the nitrates into other compounds such as algal proteins or nitrogen gas. It is best to remove solid organic material before it rots into ammonia and other compounds. The bacteria are to clean up because it is quite impossible to prevent everything from rotting, or to stop the livestock from releasing ammonia when they digest foods etc.

Coralife is not an unusable salt, but people have mentioned that the mineral composition of the salt may not be that good, for example the KH is too low or whatever, maybe other people can comment on this. It is supposedly high in calcium though. For your lionfish tank though it won't really matter as the finer details pertain more to coral and invert care.

Coral sand comes in grades of 0 to more than 5 i think. Grade 0 is the fine textured type like beach sand, which is nice but the sand may fly easily. Grade 1 is a nice grade with grain size around 1mm. The higher grades get chunkier. I think grade four to five is already chunky coral chip size. Grades 3-4 may tend to trap more dirt inside because they don't pack that closely, while grade 0 is messy but aesthetically pleasing. Try the second floor of Reborn aquarium at lavender street, they stock a lot of sand types and equipment. Usually open in the late afternoons i think, not sure when they're open.

[blueheaven]

I respect and salute your attitude towards the hobby Caleb.

And thanks for the informative responses hongqixian, its heartening to see such a nice exchange of knowledge.

Anyway, just in case you've not come across an article I wrote a while back on sandbed dynamics, I mentioned a bit about bacteria which I think would apply if you would want to use a canister for biological filtration.

So, on the bacteria part, here's a brief overview:

We have 2 different catergories of bacteria, the aerobes and anaerobes.

The bacteria we are focusing on are facultative which means they can exist in both aerobic and anaerobic conditions and of course function differently in both.

So under this 2 catergories, we mainly have 2 more groups of bacteria which are the autotrophs and heterotrophs.

The autotrophs would exist where there is light available for them to make food.

The heterotrophs would be found mostly on the other regions not colonised by the autotrophs.

The crucial bacteria which would ultimately convert nitrate to nitrogen gas are found to be anaerobic heterotrophs that exist in the region of around 0.5ppm of oxygen.

But as far as canisters are concerned, the main goal is to convert as much ammonia into nitrate as possible. You are right, the decomposing stuff that collects in there is useful to the bacteria as it is a food source for the heterotrophs.

A good point to note is that generally corals prefer pristine water which means low in nutrients. Furthermore, having too much nitrates in the water would cause algal blooms which are unsightly and hard to remove.

I do suggest you look up on the various ways to remove nitrate from the system and choose one which suits you best.

Cheers

[hongqixian]

thanks for the interesting read!

[Caleb]

hi BlueHeaven,

thanks for the very helpful reply! Certainly is enlightening.

In freshwater, in order to get rid of the nitrates and nitrites, there are many ways as well, involves water change and also adding plants...

for now, my limited knowledge of the marine aquaria tells me that one of the best ways to get rid of the nitrates is to do frequent water change.. thus.. perhaps you can give some recommendations?

I would like to know, if you can advice, what does the live rocks do ? in other words wat does the coralline algae do ?

[jc85]

LRs are part of the biological filtration. Mainly for the aerobic bact athough a small amount of anerobic bact meant exist in them.

Coraline algae from my understanding are juz a part of algae. Not much of usefulness except that its look nice.

There are some methods to remove nitrates.

- Water Change

- Deep Sand Bed

- Denitrator system

- Denitrating filter media

- Extensive protein skimming and over skimming

Cheers

JC

[Caleb]

if coralline algae is algae, which is some sort of plant... so wouldnt it mean that it will consume the nitrites and nitrate ? The green in Algae is chlorophyllum rite? So if it is.. surely there is photosynthesis.. and that would be CO2 converting to O2...

Is there a thread that talks about the uses of the live rock? Coral is coral.. and algae is algae... corals are animals.. so their needs are different from a plant...

this is confusing..

[hongqixian]

hihi,

if coralline algae is algae, which is some sort of plant... so wouldnt it mean that it will consume the nitrites and nitrate ? The green in Algae is chlorophyllum rite? So if it is.. surely there is photosynthesis.. and that would be CO2 converting to O2...

Yes, the algae has chlorophylls and other light-capturing pigments. However, coralline algae has mostly aesthetic properties, and good growth is an indicator of good water quality. This is because the amount of coralline algae is too low to significantly remove wastes from the system. You would not depend on the green algae on the glass to remove wastes from a freshwater tank, correct?

Is there a thread that talks about the uses of the live rock? Coral is coral.. and algae is algae... corals are animals.. so their needs are different from a plant...

Live rock is a porous material that is good for growing bacteria and already contains the proper species of saltwater bacteria, like giant in-tank bio-home plus it also has a lot of tiny animals and algae that are interesting to watch and add to the fauna of the tank, as well as produce planktonic particles for organisms like tubeworms to feed on. Scavengers like worms and the little white crustacean pods will rapidly eat up waste food. Nitrifying bacteria that convert ammonia to nitrates can grow on the rocks. A small amount of denitrifying bacteria that convert nitrates to nitrogen gas live deep in the cracks with low oxygen levels.

Corals need lots of light because most of them are hermatypic (light-requiring) and contain algae called zooxanthellae in their flesh and tissues. It is these algae that require the light, and the excess sugars they produce leak into the coral for the coral's nutrition. However, any nitrate uptake by the algae is not significant compared to the amount of waste that the coral produces.

Clams have been known to consume lots of nitrates because they live in very high light areas and the concentration of zooxanthellae they have is very high. However, they require a lot of lighting and very good water conditions.

The best nitrate uptakers are fast growing algae such as Gracillaria sp. and Chaetomorpha. The fast growth means that they take up a lot of nitrates to make their plant proteins. Still, for a fish-only tank with a low bioload, a water change every two months would do nicely. Just don't overfeed.

hth

[Caleb]

Hi HQX,

Thanks so much for your info, i know that alot of these info would be appearing somewhere else.. but I just dun know where to start looking! Really appreciate your help and efforts in this! For sure, when my system is up.. I will post it on this thread.. i am learning alot, in this thread alone.. , thanks to all that have contributed...

You would not depend on the green algae on the glass to remove wastes from a freshwater tank, correct?

Hahaha.. this is a geat analogy...

A small amount of denitrifying bacteria that convert nitrates to nitrogen gas live deep in the cracks with low oxygen levels.

Hmmm.. I thought that good BBs require lots of oxygen.. but low light conditions?

The best nitrate uptakers are fast growing algae such as Gracillaria sp. and Chaetomorpha. The fast growth means that they take up a lot of nitrates to make their plant proteins.

Do you have a picture of these algae? Can they be bought ?

I've paid Irwana a visit yesterday, and I was in luck, the lions arrived 2 days ago, and I was like a fat kid in a brand new candy store, who just got his allowance!

I fell in love with 2 of the lions, a dwarf and an antennata.... i was so enthrall by their beauty, i straight offered to buy them, but wanted the LFS to hold it for me, unfortunately, he refused, saying that i should take care of my tank and water first.. (as I was discussing with him about my new adventures).. that is sound advice.. and it was a shame that he couldn't hold it for me... still his assurance was that lions are always in stock...

So... my tank is arriving today... i intend to do a glass clean.. cos its got alot of algae (white and clear color type, any idea what it is?) Also, as for the live rocks, some of the pieces have alot of white hairy algae on it.. should I clean these away ?

[Caleb]

Hi folks,

would like to know.. I currently am running a 2ft, PL light set, its 55W and its a T4. one of the bulb is pink, the other is white... and I also have a spare 2ft, FL light.. I intend to do a dawn/dusk effect... anyone care to advice on the bulb type/color/luminems that i should employ? Thanking you in advance!

[blueheaven]

HQX is right about the bacteria

The ones that covert nitrate to nitrogen gas are the anaerobic heterotrophs which reside in anoxic regions of 0.5ppm oxygen

[Caleb]

Hi Blueheaven,

any advice on the type of lighting to be used ? I use finish setting up my 2 footer... filteration system is UGF with at least 3 inches of coral sand (3mm, coarse), output to a OHF, with japanese mat and CRs.. got about 4 kg of live rocks in there... the squirrel fish is looking mighty good.. but the cardinal (spotted) died on me...

I think I'll be able to rock and roll next monday when I bring the lions in..

this tank is a 2nd hand tank, i bought it as a 'plug & play' system... unfortunately when i have to transport it.. i needed to throw away the water.. and redo the water... while transporting.. alot of the gunk caused the water to be really cloudy... that did the cardinal in.. may he rest in peace..

[hongqixian]

Hi again caleb,

Hmmm.. I thought that good BBs require lots of oxygen.. but low light conditions?

it's not the light, its the fact that you only get low oxygen levels deep in the cracks for the nitrate to nitrogen gas conversion.

Do you have a picture of these algae? Can they be bought ?

you can see them here: http://www.macro-algae.com/ . As for buying, ask around in the pasar malam forum because people sell the extra growth from their tanks. But you don't need them for your fish only tank really.

Also, as for the live rocks, some of the pieces have alot of white hairy algae on it.. should I clean these away ?

use a toothbrush and scrub off anything that smells bad. Also pull off by hand any furry green algae. purple and red algae are usually okay.

anyone care to advice on the bulb type/color/luminems that i should employ?

Light intensity doesn't matter for a fish only tank. Still, a combination of blue and white light is preferable for the sea look. For dawn and dusk, turn on a blue bulb alone. Still, your level of dedication to all the little details is commendable A lot of people jump into keeping corals without even realising the amount of light they need.

filteration system is UGF with at least 3 inches of coral sand (3mm, coarse)

Are you really sure you want to use a ugf? much harder to clean you know and if many bits of meaty food get stuck in it and decompose, your lions may suffer health problems, regardless of how well cycled or how many nitrifying bacteria you have. For a lion tank with a few fish just stick in a filter intake to your OHF and skip the ugf preferably. P.S. make sure your squirrel fish is too large to fit into the lions' mouths, considering that lions can stretch their mouths.

regards

[Caleb]

Hi HQX,

I've never done a UGF before.. therefore this is a first for me. The powerhead is pretty strong for a 2 footer.. therefore.. its performing really well.. and because the output is to an OHF.. its becomes redundant..

I am also thinking that a simple setup to the OHF will suffix.. but since the UGF has already been installed.. I did not want the hassle to remove it..

I was interested in the algae.. but actually more interested in keeping or at least trying to keep something 'green' in the tank.. any recommendation? I saw some kelp being sold in Irwana..