sea water or artificial saltwater

[asiavage]

Hai,

just wondering here whether the above matter is the most suitable solutions for my 2ft tank.as what I know using salt will need distilled water for the water perimeter to be stable.?Share with me ur successful solutions.Thanks bro.

[sradi]

topic been discussed before. do a search and you shall find what you're looking for. let your fingers do the walking

[ACCK]

seawater is very gd, no matter what u keep.many pple who have never tried it will probably try to dissuade u, talking about contamination and unsafe and etc, but the fact is,i hv never heard anyone's tank suffer after water change using seawater to this day,n i been using it from day 1 on my sps tank. if anyone thinks the seawater hurt their tank, its likely its sth else. i am talking abt seawater u buy of cos. i dont know abt collectg yr own.

[plakat]

i would believe NSW is pretty good cos it contains all "live bacteria", calcium, etc etc additives in the optimun level and proportion. how can something natural be harmful? of course there is the other belief tat NSW might already be polluted with wadever ###### stuff. tat we won't know.

Btw care to share where u get ur source from? pm if its "inconvenient"

[ACCK]

Hi Plakat, i buy from iwarna cos its cheap at $1/ pkt, and even if a new batch of seawater is contaminated, everythg will be diluted bec of their large operation.

[Guzen]

I share the same view, my experience as follow

Sea water

@ Running cost is very low , 12-14LL / $, but

@ Damn heavy to carry. need transport and

@ Worry that, if it ever breaks along the way, there gone your car haha...

Mix salt water

@ Salt mix is more expensive

@ Not light actually.

@ Additional cost are DI/RO equipment , test kit etc..

@ Could be messy as you need to mix it

Anyway, it is my 2 cents worth, by the way, I always 03 sea water for 12 hours before adding into main tank. So far so good. Cheap, Simple and quick, need not to check parameters ..

[asiavage]

thank you all bros for giving me ou put n info.not that im lazy to let my fingers do the searching but my work are irregular hours and been bz lately due to end of calender year.

...what you say is true....nsw is better but to think that u got to carry the jelly can for 34 gln tank........patience got to come into picture .......

there's always the pros n cons(if im correctlah) in these 2 topics...

guess got to use up my salt first.then see how.....thanks again bros.......

[accurist]

I was using NSW to being with, but was unhappy with the quality somtimes, and noticed ich on my Blue Tangs after water change. Now I mix my own with Tropic Marin and I'm much happier with the results.

[bluezing]

im using NSW...cheap and good.

[Alvin Tan]

i used both b4...i can sae that the water parameters in seawater is very unstable....not suitable to keep corals as the calcium is less den 340ppm..magnesium can oso be very low...trace elements dun tink it contains as much as those gd salt in the market..

now im using a few type of salt and i can sae that tropic marin salt are the best.....n besides that is zoomix...and it contains 70 different kinds of trace elements as stated in the packaging..

to each his own....dere are pros n cons...in my view..i prefer saltmix..

[hammy]

it is a personally preference.

i read a book written by julian Sprung and he joked that if anyone thinks that there is a problem doing water change with NSW, the guy should go and do a water change to the sea.

as for mi i prefer to use my marine environment salt , which i find consistency in parameter. but might switch to tropic marine just to get the pail

of course NSW might come with other stuff which we cant measure .

[jervismun]

of course NSW might come with other stuff which we cant measure .

Like pollutions?

Bro, try Marine Environment salt mix. I've recently filled up my new tank with ME salt + DI water.

Magnesium = 1400

Calcium = 450

Not all salt provides the same balance of elements... trust me... I've tried other brands

And buying bags of water from LFS is not entire "lifestyle" IMO

Je®vis

[searching4dan]

umm.. mine is a 2.5Ft tank..

thinking of doing a 50% water change..

sea or salt water??

some say sea some say salt??

he say good, u say not

anyway if i use salt water..

i understand that alot of testing have to be done..

but using sea water?? need to test too??

wat to be tested??

and also, do i need a good skimmer if i intend to use sea water??

so i dun not need to do so many testing..

cuz i heard tat a good skimmer saves the day..

my current skimmer is a so-so one only

i oso afraid after water change..all my LS oso change..

[jervismun]

umm.. mine is a 2.5Ft tank..

thinking of doing a 50% water change..

Firstly a 50% water change is too great a volume regardless whether you go for salt mix or NSW... try 25% a week for 2 weeks.

Again, regardless of salt mix or NSW, you should rely on a good protein skimmer... and yes... it saves the day

[madmac]

many ppl in RC have done, complete 100% water change with NSW...making sure pH and temp is the same first before.

Think about what happens when the tides comes in on after a low tide.

[madmac]

Like pollutions?

Je®vis,

Why do u assume that "the stuff", you can't measure is bad?

[hammy]

Je®vis,

Why do u assume that "the stuff", you can't measure is bad?

parasite like itch?

[madmac]

many breeders of tiny newly-hatch frys, use NSW. It has has been found to contain enough of right "stuff" that for their survival at this critical stage.

If fish catches ich in a tank, don't look at NSW as the cause... you won't be any closer to the answer.

[hammy]

many breeders of tiny newly-hatch frys, use NSW. It has has been found to contain enough of right "stuff" that for their survival at this critical stage.

If fish catches ich in a tank, don't look at NSW as the cause... you won't be any closer to the answer.

sound logical because fishes in the sea spawn in NSW.

just as julian sprung put it in joking manner that whoever think that NSW is not good should do a water change to the sea.

anyway which breeder breed their fry in NSW ?

can link ?

i think the source where reefer get their NSW is very important.

reefer in the states who get their NSW can be quite different from reefers who get their NSW in singapore.

[madmac]

Here :-

The Toxicity of Some Freshly Mixed Artificial Sea Water; A Bad Beginning For A Reef Aquarium by Ronald L. Shimek, Ph.D. - Reefkeeping.com

Introduction :

.

.

.

Amongst professional marine biologists, particularly those who work with invertebrate embryos, the average artificial sea water mix has been recognized for many years as an imperfect substitute for what is the perfect medium for marine animal growth, pure oceanic sea water. This is particularly for delicate organisms such as embryos (Strathmann, 1987). Marine organisms have evolved in natural sea water, and natural selection has fine-tuned their physiology to this medium. Many of these organisms do not have waterproof skins, and the well-being of the creature is directly dependent upon the solution surrounding them. While there is some toleration of variations from the "normal" condition to those that the animals are attuned, generally that tolerance is small and limited only to the range of natural variation (Prosser, 1991).

. . . .Prior to the advent of many organic pesticides, many of the pesticides in use were simply mixtures of various salts of copper, zinc, arsenic, mercury and other "trace metals." Present in very low concentrations, generally those found in natural sea water, most of these materials are not harmful; however, in slightly elevated concentrations they kill organisms. (See, for example, Alutoin, et al., 2001; Breitburg, et al. 1999; Goh, and Chou, 1992; Heyward, 1988; Negri, and Heyward, 2001; Reichelt-Brushett and Harrison, 1999).

Results :

. . . The mean, or average, number of larvae from each experimental sample was compared to the mean number from the natural seawater control sample using the t-tests (Table 3). It can be seen that the results of the samples from water made with ... salts, as well as the sample from Hobbyist B's water, each had probabilities of between 0.00003 and 0.00006 (or between 3 and 6 chances out of 100,000) of being the same as natural sea water. Conversely, the results from of .... had a 45 percent and an 85 percent chance respectively of being from the same group of results as those from natural sea water.

you don't hv to look to far too. PM FuEL for his views on lasmata culture... done in NSW vs artificial salts.

[hongqixian]

That article of ron shimek's is quite old and has been highly debated with people also bringing up the valid point that corals have been grown and propagated well in captivity with salt mix in the long term, such as >20years.

if you're dealing with delicate larvae then you might want to use NSW if the cause of death has not been determined. otherwise salt mixes may actually be better for coral growth as they may contain higher levels of minerals and elements compared to NSW for better coral growth which is nothing to be afraid of as aquarists have been dosing mineral supplements, calcium and magnesium etc for ages.

compare it to growing crops in untouched 'wild' land as compared to growing hydroponic vegetables with lots of added fertilizer in the water. the hydroponic vegetables are greener, larger and healthier and no one's complaining. so don't get the artificial part put you off. it's important to get a good tried and tested salt mix like tropic marin compared to the cheaper brands like Red Sea because of the different element composition of the salt.

[madmac]

Fine. Thats good. Where have you seen recent published articles showing the contrary? Truth is ageless.... in that you can only get closer to the NSW... never better.

Of late in the SPS space, keepers are now talking about dosing K for potassium shortage in saltmixes. Reefers in zeovit are finding that coral colours look wornout. This added to the not so recent understanding that you also need Strontium, Mg, ... all so that you can come closer to NSW.

There's a price for everything. In hydroponic farming, as opposed to wild caught/organic food, taste + demand will command a price. Food prices for things from the wild are always higher because you can nvr get enough of it... they taste better lah.

[hongqixian]

Hi

Regarding more recent articles, you might want to look at these:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/11/aafeature1

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/12/aafeature1/view

which were carried out as an independent analysis by Inland Reef Aquaria in response to Dr. Shimek's article. The gist of it is that while it is true that there were higher levels of metals in synthetic mix, the authors conclude that:

"Bio-Sea MarineMix and Crystal Sea Bio-Assay do not have significantly lower heavy metals than Instant Ocean. In many cases, Instant Ocean is actually lower in toxic metals. The root cause of Dr. Ronald Shimek's bio-assay results remains unknown.

The manufacturer's data for Bio-Sea MarineMix and Crystal Sea Bio-Assay used in Dr. Shimek's study does not accurately represent the elemental composition of these salts. However, a far larger discrepancy was found with the 1999 Atkinson and Bingman data for Instant Ocean. It is believed that this difference is due to formula changes in Instant Ocean since the 1999 study.

No salt in this study is an accurate simulation of natural sea water. All salts had at least one toxic heavy metal that was far in excess of NSW levels. When all factors are considered, Tropic Marin, Instant Ocean, and Kent Marine score the best, but such a score can not be arrived at without some amount of subjective judgment in evaluating the pertinent factors. "

They did the analysis quite professionally and the full story is there if anyone wants to read.

This is a general comparison between NSW and synthetic which states most of the standard arguments: http://wetwebmedia.com/seawater.htm

A different four-year-span study of the toxicity of synthetic sea water to urchin larvae can be found here:

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2005/3/aafeature/view

concluding that:

Furthermore, in one of the 43 studies mentioned above, Jonczyk et al (2001) compared natural seawater to a synthetic sea salt in a large series of sea urchin fertilization bioassays that spanned 4 years. These investigators used the white sea urchin, Lytichinus pictus, in a series of bioassays split into two phases to determine if there were any differences between the two marine waters when used to adjust salinity in bioassays or when the tests were conducted in 100% of these waters. They compared Instant Ocean to Atlantic Ocean water and Pacific Ocean water and found that when comparing hypersaline brine to dry salts "it is our view that the dry salts (Instant Ocean) method should be used for adjusting salinity in these tests." When comparing the sea urchin fertilization toxicity tests when either natural seawater or synthetic seawater is used to dilute a number of industrial effluents they conclude that synthetic seawater (Instant Ocean) prepared from dry salts can be satisfactorily used for control/dilution water is these tests." Finally, when examining the results for the bioassays on copper conducted in natural seawater and synthetic sea salts (Instant Ocean) they found "that fertilization rates are significantly higher when using artificial water for dilution rather than natural seawater."

In conclusion, the results of this study and many other studies demonstrate that there is no evidence of toxicity of freshly mixed synthetic sea salts to sea urchin larvae and no evidence that using synthetic sea salts in a marine aquarium would be detrimental to the health of the organisms in the aquarium.

And as for using NSW in SG, we may want to be a bit more cautious as:

http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/makeupwat...aoceanwater.htm

mentions that

When deciding to use ocean water, just be sure to collect it away from freshwater river and stream run-off areas, especially if they are near chemical plants, factories, and animal or agricultural farms where the water may contain toxins, or when fuels are present in places such as around boat docks and high traffic harbors.

SG is a small island and we don't exactly have the most pristine water available. Also, our coastal water quality fluctuates with rain run-off, silt, waste-water effluent and location. NSW in other countries is sold as quoted from http://www.catalinawater.com/Cat4.htm

Catalina Water starts with natural ocean seawater which is filtered, (fiber, sand and charcoal) ozonated and protein skimmed and then pH locked at 8.3. Fish, corals and invertebrates will thrive in a Catalina Water Environment.

. Our NSW is not that highly treated, though I do not mean to say that it is not usable

It is a shortcoming of the salt mix if it lacks sufficient levels of a particular essential element. Nonetheless, dosing essential elements like potassium to make up the difference is not that big an issue. As the SPS corals use up potassium, calcium, and magnesium, do we not top these up with supplements and calcium reactors? It is a fallacy to think that NSW will maintain levels of such elements for far longer than a salt mix when these are being used up at the same rate. Same with Sr, Mg. It is not about NSW (esp our local NSW) having the perfect levels of each element but rather about finding the optimal levels of these for coral growth. NSW happens to be a good guide because corals manage to grow in it, nuff said.

Uhh I don't see the relevance to the argument about wild things costing more because they taste better. They cost more because they are harder to obtain. And it only makes economic sense to farm things can be sold at lower prices than wild. That's why it is sad that people will buy wild-collected corals over aquacultured if the price is lower. The taste difference may be solely psychological. But this isn't really related the the issue of quality at debate.

In the end, if salt mixes are inexpensive, convenient, and they work for general reef tank keeping, people will use them. Being puritan about the composition compared to NSW is a personal thing imho.

my (very long) two cents sorry!

[searching4dan]

thats $200 dollars worth liao

haha.. so much info.. read til steam sia..

[madmac]

Hi qixian,

I hv read those articles. I think authors wrote to debunk the comparisons of toxicity lvls btw different salts brands by Dr. Shimek, and yes I have felt it was more well conducted. It doesn't dispute the view point that NSW is still the standard to beat.

The 4 yr study was very specific... it read :

Furthermore, in one of the 43 studies mentioned above, Jonczyk et al (2001) compared natural seawater to a synthetic sea salt in a large series of sea urchin fertilization bioassays that spanned 4 years. ....

.

Read the quote carefully... it points to fertilization and not breeding...dilution of industrial effluents for fertilization.?

When comparing the sea urchin fertilization toxicity tests when either natural seawater or synthetic seawater is used to dilute a number of industrial effluents they conclude that synthetic seawater (Instant Ocean) prepared from dry salts can be satisfactorily used for control/dilution water is these tests." Finally, when examining the results for the bioassays on copper conducted in natural seawater and synthetic sea salts (Instant Ocean) they found "that fertilization rates are significantly higher when using artificial water for dilution rather than natural seawater."

How they come to that conclusion... based on the study of fertilization rates....?

I only brought up the 'taste bad' thinggy because you left that out in ur hydroponic veges example... nicer looking... greener, healthier and bigger... I guess you've never been to an organic vege farm before... its very interesting... they go to great lengths to forgo looks for taste and believe me its more healthier than hydroponic veges. Hv you tasted a wild caught fish and compared them to farmed ones....