Is Calcium Reactor a necessary equipment for SPS

[HwdQ]

Hi all,

I am considering to start SPS, wondering if Calcium Reactor is a necessary piece of equipment i need to invest.

Thanks for your input.

[Achilles Tang]

Definitely!

I notice that you're new to the forum. Have you been keeping a marine tank for long?

It is advisable to start with easier to keep corals first like LPS or softies before venturing into SPS without the knowledge or the financing.

My 2 cents,

AT

[Reefzzz]

Definitely!

I notice that you're new to the forum. Have you been keeping a marine tank for long?

It is advisable to start with easier to keep corals first like LPS or softies before venturing into SPS without the knowledge or the financing.

My 2 cents,

AT

That's is definitely a sincere advise.... *saluate*

[madmac]

Hi all,

I am considering to start SPS, wondering if Calcium Reactor is a necessary piece of equipment i need to invest.

Thanks for your input.

No its not necessary. ... most definitely not at the start... but pls don't let that stop you from starting. When tuned right, it does wonders... when tuned wrongly,

You can maintain Ca/CO3 demands using by dosing as well.

[HwdQ]

Hi all,

Thanks for the advise, I have been keep soft corals, and would like to test out one or two SPS like monti. Any good brand you recommend?

In the interim, I would like to try the dosing method, any advise on the frequency of the dosing method?

Much thanks. -Hwd

[Dorado]

Not necessary to have Calcium Reactor but inconvinience.

I using oversize RM CR till my pump give up on me 2 mth back.

And been dozing Kent turbo calcium every day, and I realised that

it easier to maintain it to 450+- but have to be daily routine.

Problem is, what if Im outstation or go for vacation.................

For me I will go for CR if you are into SPS.

[tineng]

start off with manual dosing first. when you get the hang of things then decide if you need a CR.

manual dosing, gives you a 'feel' of how to manage your parameters...it will be invaulable experience at a later stage if you decide to get a CR as making correction to the water parameter would be second nature to you already.....

[madmac]

Hi all,

Thanks for the advise, I have been keep soft corals, and would like to test out one or two SPS like monti. Any good brand you recommend?

In the interim, I would like to try the dosing method, any advise on the frequency of the dosing method?

Much thanks. -Hwd

It is best if you can determine your daily Ca / CO3 consumption first before attempting to maintain. Its gives you a base to move from. You'll also need this info, irrespective of whether you go with a CR or dosing.

Dosing can be daily or weekly, depending on your rates of consumption. You'll have to dose two components(parts), Ca and CO3(carbonates). If ur consumption is not high then a balance additive like kalk would suffice.

[madmac]

Not necessary to have Calcium Reactor but inconvinience.

I using oversize RM CR till my pump give up on me 2 mth back.

And been dozing Kent turbo calcium every day, and I realised that

it easier to maintain it to 450+- but have to be daily routine.

Problem is, what if Im outstation or go for vacation.................

For me I will go for CR if you are into SPS.

If you hold Ca at 450 and lose 20 a day, then 5 days away would bring it down to 350... still very safe.

Its the alk thats need a close eye on. I usually get a trusted neighbour do the alk topups for me, when the whole family is away; otherwise my wifey does it.

The trick is to know how much you lose each day. YOu'll feel a lot more confident once you know that

[Dorado]

If you hold Ca at 450 and lose 20 a day, then 5 days away would bring it down to 350... still very safe.

Its the alk thats need a close eye on. I usually get a trusted neighbour do the alk topups for me, when the whole family is away; otherwise my wifey does it.

The trick is to know how much you lose each day. YOu'll feel a lot more confident once you know that

Thank Bro,

My family dont have interest in my tank and the last time ask my maid

to do it and luckily slight overdose, dare not to ask her to top-up alk......

Maybe I am to lazy, fine it to troublesome routine, seldom LFSing and even monthly reef thing also buy online..

[iantoh]

hi there bro Hwqd.

thats great advice from bros dorado, tineng and madmac, all of whom are super experienced with SPS.

i too agree that dosing at the beginning is best. you need some time to learn to identify parameter imbalances, and then get the hang of rectifying these shifts, and with a CR, though its fairly easy to use and is pretty much tune and forget once everythings dialled in, but at the start, it can be a little overwhelming if youre not used to monitoring your ca and alk.

like bro madmac mentioned, monitoring your alk levels is most important. calcifying corals like SPS type species build their aragonite skeletons using a roughly balanced ratio of about 2.8dkh alk to 20ppm ca (if i remember correctly), so if you maintain ca and alk at optimum levels of around say 480ppm and 8dkh, the consumption of 2.8dkh will only bring your ca down to 460ppm, which is still quite a high level where ca is easily accessible to corals but your dkh would fall below 6dkh which is bordering on being too low already. try out the two part balances first and see how you get along with it?

i think bro madmac is using the Aquaz two-part (am i right bro?) and its quite affordable and easy to use.

asides to madmac,

bro, how do you test for ca and alk consumption ah? ijust a thought that i figured id check with you- if i begin at levels of say 8dkh, and my tank's consumption of alk is beyond say 4dkh daily, then once alk falls to 4dkh wont it stay there and be less readily available to the corals already after which it will cease to be consumed further and i might then incorrectly conclude that my tank's consumption is only 4dkh daily? or should i try to raise alk to max 12dkh then see how much it falls? or observe failling rate over time?

also, i was wondering... i think SPS do grow at night, perhaps with stored energy or sugars gained during the day's photosynthesis, but then why do some reefers choose to turn off their CRs at night?

thanks,

ian

[subxero]

also, i was wondering... i think SPS do grow at night, perhaps with stored energy or sugars gained during the day's photosynthesis, but then why do some reefers choose to turn off their CRs at night?

thanks,

ian

Could it be that pH is usually lower after lights off... and CR will push the pH of the main tank even lower

[tineng]

like bro madmac mentioned, monitoring your alk levels is most important. calcifying corals like SPS type species build their aragonite skeletons using a roughly balanced ratio of about 2.8dkh alk to 20ppm ca (if i remember correctly), so if you maintain ca and alk at optimum levels of around say 480ppm and 8dkh, the consumption of 2.8dkh will only bring your ca down to 460ppm, which is still quite a high level where ca is easily accessible to corals but your dkh would fall below 6dkh which is bordering on being too low already. try out the two part balances first and see how you get along with it?

i think bro madmac is using the Aquaz two-part (am i right bro?) and its quite affordable and easy to use.

asides to madmac,

bro, how do you test for ca and alk consumption ah? ijust a thought that i figured id check with you- if i begin at levels of say 8dkh, and my tank's consumption of alk is beyond say 4dkh daily, then once alk falls to 4dkh wont it stay there and be less readily available to the corals already after which it will cease to be consumed further and i might then incorrectly conclude that my tank's consumption is only 4dkh daily? or should i try to raise alk to max 12dkh then see how much it falls? or observe failling rate over time?

also, i was wondering... i think SPS do grow at night, perhaps with stored energy or sugars gained during the day's photosynthesis, but then why do some reefers choose to turn off their CRs at night?

thanks,

ian

errrr...ian, i think ca 480 is a bit on the high side....there could potentionally be percipitation if CA is kept at this value.....more realistically my feeling is a slightly narrower band of 380-420ppm......

[KennethK]

Not necessary to have Calcium Reactor but inconvinience.

I using oversize RM CR till my pump give up on me 2 mth back.

And been dozing Kent turbo calcium every day, and I realised that

it easier to maintain it to 450+- but have to be daily routine.

Problem is, what if Im outstation or go for vacation.................

For me I will go for CR if you are into SPS.

I doisng turbo calcium oso but notice there is no growth. How abt urs?

[madmac]

how do you test for ca and alk consumption ah? ijust a thought that i figured id check with you- if i begin at levels of say 8dkh, and my tank's consumption of alk is beyond say 4dkh daily, then once alk falls to 4dkh wont it stay there and be less readily available to the corals already after which it will cease to be consumed further and i might then incorrectly conclude that my tank's consumption is only 4dkh daily? or should i try to raise alk to max 12dkh then see how much it falls? or observe failling rate over time?

also, i was wondering... i think SPS do grow at night, perhaps with stored energy or sugars gained during the day's photosynthesis, but then why do some reefers choose to turn off their CRs at night?

thanks,

ian

You're hypothesizing right? 4 dKH per day?

The simple way to test would be to take a marker at a fixed time of day and test once for both Ca and dKH, and do it again the next day at the same time. Subtract the 2nd from the first and you get a simple arithmetic progression. Now you should be able to predict where your 3rd day figure is, so do a third test the next day to confirm. In all the days you're testing, you cannot be dosing anything at all. If your consumption is low then, do a test every alternate day.

You'll never get 4dKH,.... it won't be seawater then. No seriously, if you were to lose 2 dKH per half-day, you'll know its really time to start automating the process. I'm sure it can happen, I'm imagining a chocking-ful tank of SPS corals with very little water.

and yes without a doubt, they do grow at nite, I think the process is referred to as dark-photosysthesis, and you're right, it when they convert the sugars obtained during to day, to build skeletal mass.

I don't know about the CR bit, I'm think subxero got it with the pH thinggy. I thinks some never leave it off too? To each their own.

[madmac]

So if you maintain ca and alk at optimum levels of around say 480ppm and 8dkh, the consumption of 2.8dkh will only bring your ca down to 460ppm, which is still quite a high level where ca is easily accessible to corals but your dkh would fall below 6dkh which is bordering on being too low already. try out the two part balances first and see how you get along with it?

Oh, while 2.8 dKH gives the 20ppm Ca, you'll never find that ratio in yuor tank. That figure points to what the corals-only need to grow. There are other processes that consume CO3. E.g. bacterial process in the SB consume a great deal of CO3, the acid they make is sucked-up, then converted from one nutrient soup to another, takes up a great deal of carbonates from the system.

Each tank will hv their own unique set of consumption rate. Its up to you to determine where it is. I dose alk 2 days, then Ca the next day.

oH yes and pls go with Aquaz, you won't go far wrong if you know what ur doing.

[iantoh]

hi there guys,

bro tin, thanks for that tip- should my ca fall some, ill be sure not to correct it, but at the moment, i kinda keep my ca pretty high, between 460 to 480ppm, because thats just the present parameter level that i've had and which my cr seems to maintain, with alk at 8kh. more of a defacto situation than something i try to achieve, because ca and alk seems to stabilize over time at this level for me. it could be precipitation that causes a leveling off to 480ppm, in that anything above 480ppm precipitates, but as my alk is only around 8dkh, i think its ok.

bro madmac, i know we had this discussion over the alk and ca consumption rate previously, but the ratio it has to hold true for there to be any value to balanced supplements like kalk and calcium reactors, so im assuming calcification occurs somewhere cose to that ratio.

actually, i was just wondering about the possibilities of consumption tests being inaccurate- as you mentioned, its more likely a problem for me as my water volume is small, and consumption levels rather high. for example, even though above a certain upper-threshold, ca is not significantly more readily obtained- for example, i think max availability of ca occurs at around 300ppm, and we often maintain higher levels as a buffer against any shift that might occur, but actually, above 300ppm, ca is not more easily obtained by corals, though maintaining it constantly at 300ppm is not easy. on the other hand, below a certain lower threshold, alk becomes unavailable to corals. eg. say you start off with 6dkh and 1dkh is consumed after say half a day. thereafter, when alk is at 5dkh, is consumption or bio-availability of bicarbonates the same at 5dkh as it was at 6 and above? i think it might become unavailable at some point, which might then lead to an inaccurate reading of consumption over time because in a point of time during the testing period, consumption stopped due to unavailability rather than lack of demand- something like that.

anyhows, im just thinking out loud my queries to you just for discussion ya. wanted to ask you this because i think youve had superb success with the balling method, and i wanted to learn how to measure the consumption rates myself, seeing as i always dont get figures that make sense.

thanks,

ian

[madmac]

bro madmac, i know we had this discussion over the alk and ca consumption rate previously, but the ratio it has to hold true for there to be any value to balanced supplements like kalk and calcium reactors, so im assuming calcification occurs somewhere cose to that ratio.

actually, i was just wondering about the possibilities of consumption tests being inaccurate- as you mentioned, its more likely a problem for me as my water volume is small, and consumption levels rather high. for example, even though above a certain upper-threshold, ca is not significantly more readily obtained- for example, i think max availability of ca occurs at around 300ppm, and we often maintain higher levels as a buffer against any shift that might occur, but actually, above 300ppm, ca is not more easily obtained by corals, though maintaining it constantly at 300ppm is not easy. on the other hand, below a certain lower threshold, alk becomes unavailable to corals. eg. say you start off with 6dkh and 1dkh is consumed after say half a day. thereafter, when alk is at 5dkh, is consumption or bio-availability of bicarbonates the same at 5dkh as it was at 6 and above? i think it might become unavailable at some point, which might then lead to an inaccurate reading of consumption over time because in a point of time during the testing period, consumption stopped due to unavailability rather than lack of demand- something like that.

anyhows, im just thinking out loud my queries to you just for discussion ya. wanted to ask you this because i think youve had superb success with the balling method, and i wanted to learn how to measure the consumption rates myself, seeing as i always dont get figures that make sense.

thanks,

ian

You make many assumptions, Ian.

While calcification goes there, it doesn't mean your system takes-up the same ratio. Kalk and CRs are truly balanced supplements, and thats perfect if ur take up is exactly the same. There are many processes in there that can take in Ca or CO3 without calcification forming at all. This explains why for alot of reefers using CRs, every couple of days, things get abit skewed off, and a topup of either Ca or alk is necessary. Things are seldom linear in life.

It has been discussed many times, by reefers who have removed their SB, the alk demands drop by a large factor, there is far less acids in the system, needed to neutralize the alkalinity, hence the drop.

I've always thought of the Balling method as one where a dosing pump coupled with a timer is used for precise measured dosing. I don't do that, jus fyi, my demands isn't so much. Its jus dripped in.

While you can lose 4dKH a day, I didn't say that you can reach to 4dKH. Read it again. Can you go from 12 to 8 or 13 to 9 in a day, yes. Can you go from 8 to 4... very difficult... JME, things stop at 5.5.

If you can't measure "accurately", where was the fault? Is it in test kit or in ur tests? BTW, whats ur consumption like. ?

I've made one myself up there, I should have stated, that it would be best to start dKH at abouts 8 and Ca at 400 before you begin. Its really a stretch difficult if you go lower, esp if u hv lots of SPS.

[iantoh]

You make many assumptions, Ian.

While calcification goes there, it doesn't mean your system takes-up the same ratio. Kalk and CRs are truly balanced supplements, and thats perfect if ur take up is exactly the same. There are many processes in there that can take in Ca or CO3 without calcification forming at all. This explains why for alot of reefers using CRs, every couple of days, things get abit skewed off, and a topup of either Ca or alk is necessary. Things are seldom linear in life.

It has been discussed many times, by reefers who have removed their SB, the alk demands drop by a large factor, there is far less acids in the system, needed to neutralize the alkalinity, hence the drop.

I've always thought of the Balling method as one where a dosing pump coupled with a timer is used for precise measured dosing. I don't do that, jus fyi, my demands isn't so much. Its jus dripped in.

While you can lose 4dKH a day, I didn't say that you can reach to 4dKH. Read it again. Can you go from 12 to 8 or 13 to 9 in a day, yes. Can you go from 8 to 4... very difficult... JME, things stop at 5.5.

If you can't measure "accurately", where was the fault? Is it in test kit or in ur tests? BTW, whats ur consumption like. ?

I've made one myself up there, I should have stated, that it would be best to start dKH at abouts 8 and Ca at 400 before you begin. Its really a stretch difficult if you go lower, esp if u hv lots of SPS.

Hi ivan,

i understand alot of other processes consume alkalinity and calcium. i mean, precipitation occurs even with phosphate calcium bonds, and alk is often neutralized through bacterial activity within sandbeds and the core of liverocks, but that said, what i mean is a molecule of aragonite is formed by a specific ratio of ca and alk, and though this doesnt mean that all the alk and ca consumption in your tank is used by corals, you have to bear this ratio in mind to understand why alk levels fall so much quicker than calcium levels (which is why i made the point- i didnt understand this when i first began reefing, and im sure youll agree its a crucial thing one needs to perceive to better regulate supplementation, etc, and not to overdo parameter corrections should ca get to seemingly low levels like 320ppm, as its not really crucial.

i believe the corals themselves do have to abide by this ratio, even when there are other alk and ca consuming organisms within a tank that might vary from this ratio. calcium carbonate, hydrocarbonate, etc, all have fixed electron pairings, so i dont think skeletal formation by calcifying corals can vary from this ratio to any significant order, and seeing as our primary concern is the providence of ca and alk for the corals, one has to make the assumption inorder to appreciate why the levels are recommended as such, and how to anticipate their fall over time, eg. if you alk is around 5dkh, and your ca is 500ppm, and you wish to bring ca down, it wont really come down on its own because alk and ca are used for the most part in tandem, and youd need to raise alk independently to encourage consumption of both thereby bringing ca down.

as for my tank, im not sure bro, but i tried several times beginning at around 9dkh and ca 420ppm and i usually end up with 6dkh and about 400ppm in five to six hours time so i couldnt figure out how to test because i cant really begin above 12dkh. of course, i have a pretty small volume of water, about 130L only. plus, and i mean, we're just discussing these in terms of ideas, which is why im sharing my thought processes, and i dont mean to suggest any particular line of thought above others. anyhows, i was also thinking lots of theories and studies suggest that SPs growth rates increase at constantly high alk levels, which suggest that the level at which alk is maintained could affect bioavailability and i was wondering if that impacts the test of consumption within a day.

as in, if you dose sufficient alk solution to raise your tank's levels from 6dkh to 8dkh daily, and the next day your alk falls back to 6dkh, it could be posited that your consumption is about 2dkh for the whole tank per day, but alternatively, if you used a dosing pump and kept the maintaining the alk levels at 8dkh without letting it fall, do you think your dosing pump will use the same amount of alk solution for the duration of 1 day? that would then mean your alk consumption is proven at 2dkh daily? somehow, i doubt it, whcih is why i asked your thoughts on this.

i mean, we dont need super or maximum growth rates all the time, so i am not of the opinion that we should max out conditions for growth of SPS type corals 24/7, but i was just wondering if this is the case, that alk consumption varies at different levels (and to a degree, when more is available at higher levels, more is consumed), then how does one accurately measure daily alk consumption to take this into account?

another way to look at it is to, for example, start at say 9dkh and 420ppm, and check your tank a few hours after, say three hours. what do you think the reading might be?

say it falls to 7dkh and 400ppm or thereabouts in three hours (for example), whilst if you carry on leaving it without additional supplementation and the next day readings are 6dkh and 395ppm or something, that after the first 3 hours, alk consumption for the rest of the 21 hours is only 1dkh, or is it that post that initial 3 hour duration, alk became unavailable or not readily obtained? thats the thing i wanted to ask you about.

cheers,

ian

ps: ivan, i do look up to your tank's success, so please dont take it like im challenging you or something- just sounding out ideas for open debate.