Alternative to low PO4

[nakazoru]

Kareen.

Oh, the PO4 test kit came with a sample PO4 solution, if no change in color, can throw away.

The drip? I do tonight.

[kareen]

Kareen.

Oh, the PO4 test kit came with a sample PO4 solution, if no change in color, can throw away.

The drip? I do tonight.

[nakazoru]

Yep;

The PO4 sample solution should not expire.

Here is the update using the drip method:

I use a new 500ml distill water add less than 1 teaspoon of FeSO4 in and dissolve quite quickly.

Drip like Kalkwasser, I drip 1 drop/sec, notice clouding in 15mins. So I off the drip for 30min so the cloud water will clear. Then I adjust to 1 drop/4 sec and no clouding that is visible. Continue till bottle empty.

[nakazoru]

Then the results on the filter wool, which I change last week.

[nakazoru]

The skimmer: Disgusting.

Main tank okay, no brown stuff in there. Too late when take pic so no main tank pix.

[reeftask]

so that means it solidify the PO to be filtered and skimmed off?

[nakazoru]

Yep Ferous Phosphate. Out of the system.

[chercm]

Yep Ferous Phosphate. Out of the system.

bro but where can we get it ?

[kareen]

Hi nakazoru!

For every gram of FeSO4 dose, how many SO4 gets into the water?

chemical concentration ppm, mg/kg part of salinity %

Chloride Cl 19345(ppm) 55.03%

Sodium Na 10752(ppm) 30.59%

Sulfate SO4 2701(ppm) 7.68%

Magnesium 1295(ppm) 3.68%

Calcium Ca 416(ppm) 1.18%

Potassium K 390(ppm) 1.11%

Bicarbonate HCO3 145(ppm) 0.41

From the ratio above, it will take about 350 ppm of SO4 to up another percentage point of a normal seawater ratio (7~8%)....

[nakazoru]

Hi nakazoru!

For every gram of FeSO4 dose, how many SO4 gets into the water?

From the ratio above, it will take about 350 ppm of SO4 to up another percentage point of a normal seawater ratio (7~8%)....

Wah lau eh...

My profession is Automation and control lah, not chemical engineering, although I work closely with them.

Agar Agar. Approximate:

My tank is 40G approx 150 ltr

1 level teaspoon of FeSO4.7H2O approximately 5-8 g

33mg/l of FeSO4.7H2O, so 33ppm add to 2701ppm, we get 2734ppm so it is abt

1% increase in ppm of SO4. Seawater very very negligable.

Now the PO4 part of it, by product is Fe3(PO4)2 + whatever else.

Say super high Phosphate readings of 0.5ppm, I'll have 75mg phosphate in my 150 ltr tank. I will need 3 part of Fe to bind 2 part of PO4 releasing 3 part of SO4.

Thus I need only 113mg of FeSO4, but who cares a little more will not harm. Anyhow, it binds beyond PO4. But safe to use less than a teaspoon, dripping. Therefore no need to use a lot. Also dun do so often lah.

[kareen]

Morning,

I know I'm a little ..... but hor... if don't understand, simply dose is easy but fixing the problem later on is difficult... I would like to test out FeSO4 too....

I am doing some reading up on this area to look for some answers.... Eg.

1) Red sea, pacific ocean, indo sea, etc... Is there a percentage differences in SO4 concentration?

The brown stuff are: Fe(OH)3, Brown solid locking away P- ions and some others.

Left in solution are: NaSO4, MgSO4, CaSO4... something like that...

2) What is sodium sulphate, magnesium sulphate, calcium sulphate? Harmful? Or actually they are also part of the trace elements found in seawater....

I think direct dosing in tank will likely leave some trace of Fe(OH)3 in water or even left it in the fish gills.... sympton may not show up in short term.... Do the dosing external to tank is more secure.

A simple question hit my head....

3) What is actually rowaphos? Iron oxide? Can we buy the chemical in chemist just like FeSO4?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferric_oxide

rowaphos is going at about $75/kg from reefer pm reply.

4) What is the removal capacity of rowaphos versus Iron sulphate?

Appreciate any inputs if one knows.... [Thru' sharing, everyone learns more]

[nakazoru]

1. Different sea different concentration? Of course, but of slight variation with execption of dead sea. Should not be your concern as if will not be your concern, since they are so diverse, our ocean you know.

2. Sulphate being harmful? Not unless it gets to the point of H2S (Absent of O2), visually it can be observe at sand bed and LS at its early stages, though I did not experience.

3. Iron salts left in tank? Or affecting the fishes? Not so as iron salts are use for health supplement. What causes the fishes short breathed is the decrease in O2 and pH drop. But I will guess you will fell uncomfortable if you swallow 4 Fe tablet rather than recommended, so dun overdose.

4. Rowa is binding by surface area, and have its advantage as is totally not water soluble. Efficiency is thus limited but it is used not because of this but ease of removal. I use both and found FeSO4 offers added clarity which Rowa dun.

[reeftask]

Naka, I have a question, no idea related or not.

The last compartment at my sump is the place I monitor freshwater top up level from a paper tape I pasted. I always remain the salinity is 1,0235 when its at maximum level. After 1 year, I noticed the salinity is 1.0245. I never change any saltwater but only top-up freshwater. Where does this extra salinity comes from? If salt from those trace elements wont be so much. I always feed Hikari frozen mysis. Is this the cause?

[nakazoru]

Naka, I have a question, no idea related or not.

The last compartment at my sump is the place I monitor freshwater top up level from a paper tape I pasted. I always remain the salinity is 1,0235 when its at maximum level. After 1 year, I noticed the salinity is 1.0245. I never change any saltwater but only top-up freshwater. Where does this extra salinity comes from? If salt from those trace elements wont be so much. I always feed Hikari frozen mysis. Is this the cause?

Ya it is not really related.

Guess it is about the same as everyone who keep marine. But dun tell me you only change water once a year.

Maybe we start with a fixed SG. Overtime, evaporation... We top up with fresh water. This we normally do. Salinity by definition is the measurement of all kind of salt in water, not only sodium chloride. Change in density of water, thus change in salinity.

Food we feed, additive we dose, all has a part to do in increasing SG. Thus came the job of water change. I also normally do water change at a lower SG to counter that.

Cheers.

[reeftask]

Ya it is not really related.

Guess it is about the same as everyone who keep marine. But dun tell me you only change water once a year.

Maybe we start with a fixed SG. Overtime, evaporation... We top up with fresh water. This we normally do. Salinity by definition is the measurement of all kind of salt in water, not only sodium chloride. Change in density of water, thus change in salinity.

Food we feed, additive we dose, all has a part to do in increasing SG. Thus came the job of water change. I also normally do water change at a lower SG to counter that.

Cheers.

I have not been changing water for more than 2 yrs, LOL. Corals all still striving.

Thanks for your advise, now I know this is normal.

Now back to the PO4, it is getting more interesting.

Kareen, any advise on PO4?

[kareen]

I have not been changing water for more than 2 yrs, LOL. Corals all still striving.

Thanks for your advise, now I know this is normal.

Now back to the PO4, it is getting more interesting.

Kareen, any advise on PO4?

yeah...getting interesting with no much partipation from others.... me now reading until my eyes goes ... not much progress... after all chemistry isn't my rice bowl....

[tayhonglee]

hey guys,

a little update on my tank. i have recently changed the substrate, added more rocks, and rescaped the whole tank. i haven't added any feso4 for the past few days. parameters are looking good. feeding very very little to prevent any spikes. so far things are going well.

i planning to try this tomorrow:

1. switch off my return pump

2. dose feso4 into sump

3. circulate the water in sump with a powerhead for 10 min

4. filter out the brown stuff with a cannister filter for 1 hour

4. switch on my return again

what do you guys think? will prolly do this in around noon. i will test the phospate level before and after.

[kareen]

hey guys,

a little update on my tank. i have recently changed the substrate, added more rocks, and rescaped the whole tank. i haven't added any feso4 for the past few days. parameters are looking good. feeding very very little to prevent any spikes. so far things are going well.

i planning to try this tomorrow:

1. switch off my return pump

2. dose feso4 into sump

3. circulate the water in sump with a powerhead for 10 min

4. filter out the brown stuff with a cannister filter for 1 hour

4. switch on my return again

what do you guys think? will prolly do this in around noon. i will test the phospate level before and after.

A better proposal.... there may be a few things to note.... mainly I can think of off hand is the macro algae, bioballs and sand if there is in your sump....

[kareen]

Well, so far this is what I found the most meaningful and yet unknown to me before....

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-11/rhf/index.php

Copied from part of the article...

For example, the salinity of seawater, whether measured with a hydrometer, a refractometer or a conductivity meter, is dominated by these four ions. Deviations in the concentration of any other ion, even if significant for other reasons, will not significantly alter such measurements. For example, whether the calcium is 300 ppm or 500 ppm will not be noticeable in a typical salinity determination. That difference represents only a 0.6% change in the total weight of salts present, changing the salinity from 35 ppt to 34.8 ppt. Likewise, whether the alkalinity is 5 meq/L (14 dKH) or 2 meq/L (5.6 dKH), the change in salinity is only about 0.5%.

Another important implication of the high concentration of these other ions is that they move around only very slowly when perturbed by additives and foods. For example, adding calcium chloride boosts chloride more than it does calcium, but since there is already a background of 19,000 ppm of chloride, such additions do not rapidly disturb the relative ratios of the various ions in seawater.

A small portion of both sodium and potassium (about 5%) exists as ion pairs with sulfate, forming NaSO4- and KSO4-. This type of ion pair is best viewed as a temporary association between the two ions and may last for only a very small fraction of a second before the ions move apart. Nevertheless, this type of association can have important implications for the behavior of these ions. Ions forming such pairs actually "touch" each other. That is, most or all of the hydrating water molecules that are in between them have been temporarily removed. This removal of the intervening water molecules is the primary distinction between ion pairs and ions that are simply near each other.

As mentioned above, sulfate forms ionic interactions with most positively charged species in seawater. In fact, more than half of it is in the form of an ion pair, with NaSO4- and MgSO4 dominating. Sulfate is not otherwise especially remarkable as a seawater component since it is present at a fairly high concentration that does not vary much with location or depth. However, if the oxygen level drops substantially, it can serve as an electron acceptor (oxygen source) for microorganisms degrading organic materials. That process forms the toxic gas, hydrogen sulfide. The following chemical reaction describes what happens in that process:

Organic (typical) + sulfate à carbon dioxide + bicarbonate + hydrogen sulfide + ammonia + water + phosphate

While the normal process in the presence of oxygen is:

Organic (typical) + oxygen à carbon dioxide + nitrate + water + phosphate

[kareen]

Hello... I did a pail of FeSO4 treatment over the weekend externally as per Simon, nakazoru, initial thread treatment.... not so difficult lah...

What I did is just basically preparing a pail of new saltwater to exchange with the tank water and add some FeSO4 in the pail with a overhead filter ON for a whole night. This morning I have pumped the treated tank water into the tank and siphon another pail for the same treatment again.... Whole process took about 10 to 15minutes to complete... quite easy.

There is a little question.... the way I do it may have omit the aeration process, will it affect the PO4 absorption rate?

I add about a little under 1 gram of FeSO4 to a 20litres pail. Is this too little or too much? Appreciate some feedbacks...

[nakazoru]

Hi Kareen;

Guess you are a more discipline person than I am. Sometime I let it sit for 2 days as cannot get time to clear the mess I create.

Aeration will accelerate the browning of water, that I notice. But none the less will react too. If you fells like it, another good chemical to add as a reagent for the process is none other than Kalkwasser. co-dose the two will be a perfect combination and remove solid mess out of the water. This I read must have present of plentiful of O2, otherwise just waste away... Not too sure of just FeSO4 alone.

1g/20l gives you 50ppm so it seems like too much consider you dun know the PO4. It is alright if you do out of tank, as The Fe really like the white wool and stick to it like magnet.

[kareen]

Hi Kareen;

Guess you are a more discipline person than I am. Sometime I let it sit for 2 days as cannot get time to clear the mess I create.

Aeration will accelerate the browning of water, that I notice. But none the less will react too. If you fells like it, another good chemical to add as a reagent for the process is none other than Kalkwasser. co-dose the two will be a perfect combination and remove solid mess out of the water. This I read must have present of plentiful of O2, otherwise just waste away... Not too sure of just FeSO4 alone.

1g/20l gives you 50ppm so it seems like too much consider you dun know the PO4. It is alright if you do out of tank, as The Fe really like the white wool and stick to it like magnet.

Hello Simon,

I'm in my 4 * 20 litres of FeSO4 treatment.... I treat it externally and find the procedure very fast... now I need only about 5minutes to complete. I do 2 pail a day, one in the morning before work and another after work.... So far, everything looks pretty normal.

my PO4 should not be low 'cos I feed quite a bit of frozen and dried cylopeeze to my sunnies twice daily....

Aeration will accelerate the browning of water, that I notice. But none the less will react too. If you fells like it, another good chemical to add as a reagent for the process is none other than Kalkwasser. co-dose the two will be a perfect combination and remove solid mess out of the water. This I read must have present of plentiful of O2, otherwise just waste away... Not too sure of just FeSO4 alone.

So, what does this extra addition of limewater remove? Will adding an airstone provide the required O2? Me curious as a cat....

1g/20l gives you 50ppm

50ppm of what?

uh? 1 gm per 20 litres too much? 7G will roughly give 26litres....

BTW, can I view like as long as there is brown stuffs forming in water equal PO4 presents?

Appreciate inputs...

[nakazoru]

No matter how much food you feed, PO4 will be difficult to reach 1ppm. "You will need 3 part of Fe to bind 2 part of PO4 releasing 3 part of SO4." So on theory, you need 1.5 ppm of FeSO4 for such high PO4. For 26ltr, all you need remove just PO4 of 1ppm is 39mg for the pail of water. So 1g is quite alot, but unused FeSO4 is consumed to flocgulate the rest of suspended organics...

Lime is use as a combination with Fe salt to enhance the process of water treatment of waste water with O2. The end product is better efficiency/quality of treated water. This is confirmed by lab test and used by Water Treatment plant worldwide. Please dun ask me for chemical equation, I only automate their plant. Air Stone will suffice. I use a venturi pump.

Brown stuff flocgulate of Fe ions with presents of O2. So it does not means Fe3(PO4)2.

Cheers

[kareen]

all you need remove just PO4 of 1ppm is 39mg for the pail of water.

.... oh my god and I have added 5g of FeSO4 already...

unsed FeSO4 is consumed to flocgulate the rest of suspended organics...

er... do u mean all FeSO4 will be used up to bind with something and so by the time I pump back no more FeSO4?

Is the suspended organics good or bad one?

In simpler words, is okay to overdose a bit to remove some extra suspended organics? BTW, is suspended organics equal to DO, dissolved organics we refer about skimmate?

After pumping 4 * 80litres in two days, I notice skimmer cup is filling about 1 quater cup worth of watering, urine colour skimate in 1 day... It takes about 3 days to reach the volume before... The 5th pail is already to pump back but I hold on to it this morning...

Lime is use as a combination with Fe salt to enhance the process of water treatment of waste water with O2. The end product is better efficiency/quality of treated water.

What is the amount of kalkwasser is needed with FeSO4?

How to mix them?

Do we take the clear solution from kalkwasser and dose like a drip as in the usual reef or just dump everything in?

Brown stuff flocgulate of Fe ions with presents of O2. So it does not means Fe3(PO4)2.

BTW, just sharing what I found on the FeSO4....

http://www.ecofluid.com/process.cfm

Part of the essay....

For example, removal of phosphorus by FeSO4 is given as by the two following reactions:

Phosphorus Precipitation

3FeSO4 + 2PO4-3 ---------> Fe3 (PO4)2 + 3SO4-2

Alkalinity Reduction and Hydroxide Precipitation

Fe+++ + 3HCO-3 -----------> Fe(OH)3

According to the above two reactions, removal of 2 mg/l of PO4-3, would theoretically produce 6 mg/l of additional sludge. In actual practice, a value of 5 mg/l of sludge per mg/l of PO4-3 removed provides a conservative design value. For an influent wastewater having 240 mg/l of incoming BOD and a sludge yield of 0.6 lbs TSS/lb BOD removal, and the use of FeSO4 to remove 2 mg/l of PO4-3, the total increase in sludge production would be about 7%.

[nakazoru]

No, there is no 100% removal of Fe ions in the real world, good news is very little is left.

Flocculation is very similar to skimming, however rather than binding to fine air bubble, it binds to Fe ions as Solidified sludge. This is good as it is easier to removed by skimming and filter wool. So my guess thats the reason why your skimmer is churning out more gunk.

I do not know if it other -ions that is removed is good or bad. I still do test for Ca, Mg, KH and salinity, and lies in the same optimal region, with pH affected. Stuff like suspended Oil, sludge in waste water treatment is removed by the process of chemical dosing. So I guess it is bad stuff it removed. It is done by electrically attracting the suspended stuff.

As for kalkwasser, it will precipitate PO4 by itself but very slow. Dosing both Fe Salt and lime compliment each other. Fe salts needs high pH to work typically 9pH in treatment plants. Its efficiency is lowered with low pH, so with lime, it raises the pH so Fe salts runs its best. So I will suggest that lime be added to maintain the pH at 8.5.