Alternative to low PO4

[nakazoru]

do tapwater contain PO4? if so, would it be a great idea to run this filtration on the newly mixed water for those not on RO/DI systems?

I already using DI water thanks to Bro shootsimon.

My primary objective is to remove the PO4 already in my system using cost effective but time consuming method. It is not so much on introducing PO4 from tap water. But it can be done as it remove PO4 and Silica.

I hope in future, if water quality of the treatment is good, it will eliminate mixing of salt water for water change. but keep a jerry can of treated SW for water change. Thus also reduce buying salt. I do hope this can be acheive.

[madmac]

Binding is by ferric oxide which is the brown stuff. Yes mechanical Filtration is necessary to remove it thus it is treated outside the tank. PH test is done because FeSO4 is acidic, at 4-5ph. By using a diluted solution, PH will still be approx 6ph. Adding it to the SW will drop the PH by some 0.1ph. I check to be sure.

Test I done so far:

Direct dosing into my Sump Tank, brown sludge settle onto sand and LR. I must say it is ulgy. mushie and zoa are all okay and not affected but the sludge remains in the tank for 2 week already... Too lazy to clean it. Thus it is not to be done to main system itself.

External treatment to main tank, only purified SW returns to tank, some 40% of the water so far. Observation mention previously is that the blasto and prata opens biggest so far, these corals in my sump, night cycle.

Today when main light cycle comes on. No only the SW is quite crystal clear, the goniopora show a slight tint of lumi green on its skirt from provious yellow. GSP seems thicker, even I did not scrub or blast the GSP. I hope it is not my imagination.

To be frank, it really took big courage to test. I literally put a couple thousand buck at risk. But now I'm quite convinced. But still need to monitor long term effect.

Hv you done tests to reveal the level of sulphate and its other consequent reactions produced as a result? You can get any one of the following possible scenarios :

• Hydrogen Sulphide

• Re-oxidixation of free sulphide to form sulphates again, releasing(leaching) PO4 back

• Sulphuric acid

Sulphur and iron are rich-nutrients that supports life, esp. in eutrophic conditions.

[nakazoru]

Hv you done tests to reveal the level of sulphate and its other consequent reactions produced as a result? You can get any one of the following possible scenarios :

• Hydrogen Sulphide

• Re-oxidixation of free sulphide to form sulphates again, releasing(leaching) PO4 back

• Sulphuric acid

Sulphur and iron are rich-nutrients that supports life, esp. in eutrophic conditions.

Well Madmac;

You know your stuff. Good to know.

While I'm no chemical guy. I try my best from what I read it the few studies on the use of FeSO4.

Leaching is minimise compare to GFO as it is filtered from the SW. If treated with the tank, yes it is does over time.

Sulphuric acid is a minmal threat since H2SO4 is alway ready to react with most matter.

Sulphite and sulphate are what is left in the solution. The studies does not reveal much abt these on a long term basis, open end. This also being address with issue of Epsom salt, which is what happens when we dose mg additive. No long term studies.

Hydrogen Sulphide - is toxic and produced with the absent of oxygen. This happens when one have neglect the tank for a long. It happens to be trapped under seabed be most of the time. I think some DSB discuss abt it.

What I add should only have Sulphite/Sulphate ions left, similar to Epsom salt issue to a certain extend. I not certain if Carbon media will remove the sulphate ions.

[madmac]

nakazoru san,

I don't know everything and am just trying to learn more from this hobby. If I'm not mistaken, Sulphur is the 4th highest ion in seawater, making about 2700 ppm, so a little change will not mean much. For sandbed users, the need to keep the system aerobic will help in preventing the formation of H2S.

I'm thinking what makes up the brown residual compound?. Its Iron, but with what else. If the Iron Sulphate dissolves into its individual elements and then re-bind back (because of sulphate saturation and because Iron is a strong oxidizer) towing in phosphates along. For that to happen, you'll have to stop bubbling... I think you did that later right?

As you have shown, since PO4 was noticeably reduced... if you can test the sample water for sulphates levels before and after. If the results show not a significant change then I think you may have stumbled on a real winner. Ways can be designed to implement a more efficient system to manage the process.

BTW that was some good effort put in by you.

[nakazoru]

Bro Madmac;

Sulphate test kit is almost near impossible to get as it does not cause too much harm except for H2S with absent of O2 of course. Sulphate exist in the form of SO4- so it is binded to most minerals. To get such test kit unless I'm a chemist.

The brown stuff are: Fe(OH)3, Brown solid locking away P- ions and some others.

Left in solution are: NaSO4, MgSO4, CaSO4... something like that...

Some document suggested using FeCl but yet to study it.

[ervine]

hm.... so no way to do it in tank? coz you gotta let it sit for a few hours?

[nakazoru]

hm.... so no way to do it in tank? coz you gotta let it sit for a few hours?

Bro Ervine;

I dare not try in my main tank. Not that it is dangerous to LS or coral, but brown sludge may settle on the LR and sand. Then you may have to turkey blast them to remove it.

In my pail, even the water pump out are crystal clear, when I take a cloth to wipe the wall of the pail, the sludge stick there in small quantity.

Your choice.

[ReDDeviLs]

maybe we can treat it in sump so that the brown sludge will not settle on sand and lr?

[nakazoru]

maybe we can treat it in sump so that the brown sludge will not settle on sand and lr?

Not a bad idea, but really dun dare to do anything drastic to my main tank. My currect procedure uses a venturi pump of 1200l/hr in pail so the flow is very high. Cannot imagine my small sump being all stirred up.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone dare to risk doing this even though I get quite abit of enquiry...

[ervine]

Interesting bro.. but, if you take out one pail of water from your tank to do this, means u turn off your circulation to sump and back for a few hours?

[nakazoru]

Interesting bro.. but, if you take out one pail of water from your tank to do this, means u turn off your circulation to sump and back for a few hours?

Bro ervine;

Nope. I actually did like this.

1. Prepare 7G NSW

2. Siphon 7G Tank SW

3. Add 7G NSW

4. Treat 7G Tank SW (Now I shorten to 5 hrs)

5. Repeat for 5 times.

So for my tank now. The PO4 reading abt closer to 0.05 range as the test kit color is very difficult to read the color at the lower end.

If I do the maths, it should actually be abt 0.1 mg/l. So when I come to this point, the PO4 removal becomes inefficient as I not treating the whole tank but 7G out of 40G. Every treatment at this point only reduce 0.02 mg/l out of the system while dropping with each treatment... I think rowaphos will come into the picture.

I also will monitor to see if PO4 in LR/Sand will leach back over the week.

[madmac]

Not a bad idea, but really dun dare to do anything drastic to my main tank. My currect procedure uses a venturi pump of 1200l/hr in pail so the flow is very high. Cannot imagine my small sump being all stirred up.

Anyway, I wonder if anyone dare to risk doing this even though I get quite abit of enquiry...

I think you did the prudent thing by testing it outside the tank. I find it very interesting.

Did the skimmer pick up the brown stuff? or are they too heavy to be skimmed out?

[ervine]

repeat 5 times?? each time 5 hours? Wah bro.. not easy huh?

[nakazoru]

Hi Madmac;

Til now, I dun see brown stuff in my tank or skimmer. The sludge are heavy but float. It take hours to see them settle down the bottom completely. Also mechanical filter takes 15mins to completely remove them.

Hi Ervine;

It is indeed long and consuming process. Siphon and return takes abt 10min and the rest is waiting. I think 4hrs of agitation is too long as it only takes less than 5 mins to see the Fe ions oxidise. I did it so long as one technique of purifying water is aeration. Maybe it can be done without. Anyway, its my first time doing and I like the result. Hope I can optimise the process better, but I running out of PO4 to play with...

[nakazoru]

Juz to attach a pix of the treated tank. Probably only can tell the clarity.

See the clarity of the water. Benefits:

1. Light is penetrate better, coral at the bottom gets more light.

2. Coral like it better, getting more spectrum.

3. Also make me a better cameraman.

Another thing that I notice is that after the treatment, skimmer actually output less skimmate. It makes me wonder what else the treatment remove. I really hope I can get a full test result. Guess it is impossible.

[sherman]

If you have a pic of the before treatment.that will be even more better

[nakazoru]

If you have a pic of the before treatment.that will be even more better

Sorry dude;

Did not expect the treatment improve the water clarity. So I did not take pix juz b4 treatment.

But for progress, you may see my tank thread.

[iantoh]

hi there bro nakazoru,

superb discovery bro! this must be the most interesting thread ive read in ages. kudos to you for the effort, and thanks alot for sharing this with us. its a really interesting idea, and theoretically, it makes perfect sense. I was reading through a thread on PHOSar on RC, and some of the discussion centered around how ferric oxide should ideally be applied in an external condition- that is, forcing water through ferric oxide granules yields the best phosphate removal, and is the industry standard method of removing phosphate from industrial and waste water, and Randy Holmes-Farley even chimed in to say that Ferric oxide is best used in a canister where water is forcibly passed through a bed of ferric oxide media, than in our popular fluidized reactors where water often agitates the media, but isnt forced through its inner pores.

my minds abuzz with ideas of how to implement this method for my system now. hahah..

cheers,

ian

[nakazoru]

hi there bro nakazoru,

superb discovery bro! this must be the most interesting thread ive read in ages. kudos to you for the effort, and thanks alot for sharing this with us. its a really interesting idea, and theoretically, it makes perfect sense. I was reading through a thread on PHOSar on RC, and some of the discussion centered around how ferric oxide should ideally be applied in an external condition- that is, forcing water through ferric oxide granules yields the best phosphate removal, and is the industry standard method of removing phosphate from industrial and waste water, and Randy Holmes-Farley even chimed in to say that Ferric oxide is best used in a canister where water is forcibly passed through a bed of ferric oxide media, than in our popular fluidized reactors where water often agitates the media, but isnt forced through its inner pores.

my minds abuzz with ideas of how to implement this method for my system now. hahah..

cheers,

ian

Bro Ian;

Thanks for the compliment. If we can house industrial water treatment at home, it will be nice. And I need a house as big as Toa Payoh swimming pool and I will not have to go thru this exercise.

Over at RC, Dr Randy has point me to a few direction.

Over here, probably only you will be as mad as me to try it. hahaha.

Hope you can find out more abt it.

One idea that I contemplate for a while is another iron salt that should be a better removal. It is FeCl3 which is also used for such purposes. It should be better as the only ions that is left in the solution is Chloride which is the safer than sulphate. And it is the 1st or 2rd (can't remember) most abundance ions.

Glad that u enjoy this thread.

[nakazoru]

Hi all;

Here is an extract of a commercial liquid PO4 binder - Salifert.

Phosphate Eliminator binds phosphate and is removed by skimming more effectively than normal. When we dose it to the reef or marine aquarium, it immediately makes phosphate unavailable to algae. It also avoids binding of phosphate to corals, live rock and sand, increasing the ability of corals and calcareous algae to grow much faster.

The phosphate bound by this supplement and not removed by skimming within 24 hours will be set free again by bacterial action. This will be especially the case when dealing with a rather high phosphate concentration. Daily dosage is required in such cases.

Increased phosphate concentration in the skimmed foam will be observed a couple of hours after Phosphate Eliminator has been dosed.

Measurement of the aquarium water, when using Phosphate Eliminator will not show that this supplement has bound the phosphate. That is, a test will not give a lower reading. The reason for this is that phosphate test kits require acidic reagents lowering the pH below 4, and such a low pH re dissolves the bound phosphate.

Therefore, measurement of the skimmed foam gives information about the effectiveness of this supplement. While a measurement of the aquarium water gives information on how much phosphate (bound + free) is still there.

Prolonged high phosphate concentration results in binding of phosphate to live rock and sand. When the phosphate concentration gets lower (by using this supplement), the phosphate bound to live rock and sand is set free. Or to put it differently; the aquarium decoration is getting cleaner with respect to phosphate. Therefore it might appear as no phosphate is being removed. Again measurement of phosphate in the skimmed foam will show if additional phosphate is being removed or not.

I wonder if anyone use it as I'm interested if it is a similar Fe additive either FeCL3 or FeSO4 but more dilluted to be able to use in the tank. It may be even Aluminium sulphate coagulate in a different color....

[nakazoru]

Updatezzzz....

I did my 2rd run of treatment after come back from Beijing...

PO4... Cannot detect liao... Now only need to maintain...

Here I show 2 pix of those deeply encrust algae (Lobophora sp. - brown wafer algae) not those diatom/dinoflagate where it can be brush off. You can see they are retreating/breaking up..... See arrow...

[iantoh]

hi there bro,

i think its a really interesting idea, and could very well be a similar process to the technology behind the salifert liquid PO4 remover, just that not sure about long term effects, so probably wont try it for a while. thanks for sharing with us your progress with this experiment- its only with these wonderful ideas that our hobby progresses!

cheers,

ian

ps: bro, may i ask where you purchased your goniopora pandoraensis?

[nakazoru]

hi there bro,

i think its a really interesting idea, and could very well be a similar process to the technology behind the salifert liquid PO4 remover, just that not sure about long term effects, so probably wont try it for a while. thanks for sharing with us your progress with this experiment- its only with these wonderful ideas that our hobby progresses!

cheers,

ian

ps: bro, may i ask where you purchased your goniopora pandoraensis?

Bro Ian.

I will not be treating anymore the water with the FeSO4 as the PO4 is low now. I will maintain it with juz sufficient feeding, run rowaphos. Maintain with Kalk. I really juz wana explore ways to bring PO4 to a manageable level.

Also, you used to be the rightful owner of the gonio... Until you sold it to me... You very forgetful... Anyway, u the master of flower pot...

Hi all;

I still have very much FeSO4 left which I will not be needing that much, interested can PM me...

[iantoh]

hahahahahah!!! i thought so too!!

i was thinking, eh, that gonio looks kinda familiar leh. hahah. it looks like its grown in your care too, so hats off for that. including the time it was with me, it has been in captivity for over 2 years, which is a small achievement i think.

well done!

[nakazoru]

Observation Updatez.

Apart from dinoflagate/brown wafer algae being gone. I does notice there are some other algae that is not being eliminated because they dun really depended on PO4 or silica to prosper.

Example of algae/bacteria:

1. Same amount of Green algae/hair algae.

2. Some quantity hairy brown stuff, dun know what algae..

3. Slight trace of Cyanobacteria in sump because of 6500K light

So many different algae in the ocean.

While neutrients are still present, thus non-PO4 dependent algae will still be in the tank. While Fe is reported florish macroalgae, I do not know if this is the case as I dun own Fe test kit.