Alternative to low PO4

[nakazoru]

Hi All;

I found an alternative to PO4 binder as compare to the off the shelf Rowaphos, Phosguard.

I study and search the web for 2 weeks to gather information necessary to execute the steps.

While it is an PO4 binder, it is also a water purifying technic use in many waste water treatment plant.

The chemical used is FeSO4 or Ferrous Sulphate as a coagulant to acheive high removal efficiencies for organic compounds and nutrients (nitrogen and phosphorus).

It is best used outside the tank, and return the treated water back to the tank.

It goes like this:

Remove Water from Tank -> Treat with FeSO4 with aeration (4hrs)-> Mechanical Filtration (2hrs) -> Return to tank.

Test results:

Before Treatment:

PO4 - 0.3 - 0.5

PH - 8.0

After Treatment:

PO4 - <0.01 - 0.3

PH - 7.9

[nakazoru]

Here is a pictorial explanation:

I siphon 1 bucket approx 7G of water out of my tank. Took a measure of the PO4 and PH.

Dissolve 1/4 teaspoon of FeSO4 to 200ml of water. The solution is light blueish in appearance. Add to the 7G pail of water...

[nakazoru]

Run a venturi Pump to inject air/oxygen and agitate the 7G.

[nakazoru]

See the solution while treatment in 1 hr. FeSO4 oxidation occurs. The solution is brown in color. Because of the iron ion.

[nakazoru]

After some 4 hrs of running, I ran a canister with only mechanical filter in it for 1 -2 hr. I took a sample of the water and the results is prestine clear SW.

[nakazoru]

I have return the treated SW back to the tank and find the water being crystal clear even it is 7G of my 40G.

I running my second run of the treatment and will return SW back in the morning.

The PO4 has drop from 0.3/0.5 to <0.01/0.05 range.

The LS and coral all seems fine in the treated SW.

Cheers

[VanDeam]

oo where to get the chemical meant for it ?

[nakazoru]

oo where to get the chemical meant for it ?

Hi VanDeam

I bought at a lab supplier at balestier Shopping complex. I dun have the full address.

[VanDeam]

no need id to buy ? is it control substance ?

[nakazoru]

no need id to buy ? is it control substance ?

You sound like you buying some controlled drugs...

FeSO4 is actually a common fertilizer used for argriculture. But the fertilizer at florist is 30% pure. I bought the lab grade 98% pure since I happens to know some lab equipment shop there.

After adding the treated water, the blasto and prata open the biggest I seen so far since I kept them for 8 mth... .

I'm happy today.

[Guzen]

Hi bros, very interesting process,

I used to inject 03 outside main tank to purify water first before adding it back to main tank. now, with your help, I could try FeSO4 proces ... haha..

Wonder if you like to start a DIY party on this or

Could you PM the address of balestier Shopping complex? which floor etc.. that I go look for it.

Thanks

[lyz77]

Hi bros, very interesting process,

I used to inject 03 outside main tank to purify water first before adding it back to main tank. now, with your help, I could try FeSO4 proces ... haha..

Wonder if you like to start a DIY party on this or

Could you PM the address of balestier Shopping complex? which floor etc.. that I go look for it.

Thanks

If we can have a separate chamber in our sump, maybe we can have this water purification automated! One chamber running the FeSO4 with recirculating pump, after 4 hrs, run the mechnical filter for 2 hrs, then pump it back to the main tank and fill up the chamber with the tank water again!!! Sounds good rite!

[jervismun]

If we can have a separate chamber in our sump, maybe we can have this water purification automated! One chamber running the FeSO4 with recirculating pump, after 4 hrs, run the mechnical filter for 2 hrs, then pump it back to the main tank and fill up the chamber with the tank water again!!! Sounds good rite!

Well with all the trouble of moving large amount of water in and out of the tank... I just have 2 questions:

1) How much cost savings compared to using Rowaphos or some cheaper alternatives such as PhosGuard or SORB-4?

2) How much better is this FeSO4 compared to those on-the-shelf products mentioned earlier?

I may not sound as upbeat here (as I am a dummy when it comes to chemistry)... but it's still a very interesting discovery...

[nakazoru]

Hi Guzen;

DIY party? The process is quite time consuming as it is a out of tank DIY process. I like the aeration and oxidation to be at least 4 hours and if possible after the mechanical filtration, aeration for another 1 hr. The process is so simple so juz tok over will do. But if you really interested, you may organise.

As for the lab supplier, it is diagonally across Nature Aquarium call Practical Instrument. Exact address I dun have.

Hi lyz77;

Automating it seems like a far distant away. My profession is in automation, and I have done a handful of industrial waste and raw water treatment. I stumber across this idea when on plant actually has a pond that solely used the treated waste water to keep koi. A seperate chamber has to be big enuf to maximse the process. As we dun treat the whole tank, but by dillution method to lower PO4 and substance gradually. But is still possible.

Hi Jervis;

I like you probably did Chemistry only during Secondary School. With some basic knowledge, thanks to our education system and my job, I tried the chemical with some background research done in states.

I have done 2 changes of rowaphos so it is a single most expensive product I use. We all know the price for the 250ml. These products is actually Fe Oxide where binding depends on the pororous surface of the media. Good thing is that it is binded to the material itself. Thus easilier removed. If used to reduce phosphate from very high range to low range, it is recommended replace after 48hr as it will balance the PO4 with the SW.

The price of FeSO4 - $20 for the 1kg. I got mine as a opened bottle so he charge me S$10. I treat the 7G with 2-3g to reduce to sub 0.03 level. So you do the maths.

The effectiveness of the FeSO4 is that it does not depend on surface of the media to remove PO4. It reacts in liquid state. 100% reaction.

I dun believe this is an amazing discovery. The is liquid phos removal - Phos Buster Pro by Caribsea which I suspect contains FeSO4 but in much lower concentration. PO4 still need to be skimmed out of the system.

Please do not be upbeat as it is juz a share of information not even a new product. Rowa and all additive supplier has intensive equipment to product test and research b4 launch. I only do with information from the web and reseacrh papers.

I juz doing some favorite reef research as passtime.

[jervismun]

That is definitely very cheap compared to using Rowaphos... and thanks bro for sharing this piece of information... I have 1 question though, if you are already using Rowaphos, how come your tank PO4 can still be at 0.3/0.5? And yes, once you bring PO4 down to almost undetectable level... the corals will open big

Just wondering what went wrong with your most expensive investment (Rowaphos)... you run a FR? Or just put them inside stocking?

[nakazoru]

That is definitely very cheap compared to using Rowaphos... and thanks bro for sharing this piece of information... I have 1 question though, if you are already using Rowaphos, how come your tank PO4 can still be at 0.3/0.5? And yes, once you bring PO4 down to almost undetectable level... the corals will open big

Just wondering what went wrong with your most expensive investment (Rowaphos)... you run a FR? Or just put them inside stocking?

Hi Jervis;

You can imagine the PO4 I have before I run Rowaphos. If I keep buying Rowa... . My son will have to drink Saltwater rather than milk.

I ran it in my return with the rowa. Rowa is effective in every way. Worth every cents of it. And the convenience that comes with it. On thing also is that PO4 will be release back to the tank when Rowa is exhausted, it may also be my fault...

[Guzen]

Hi, bro Nakazoru...

Noted with many thinaks, I will go search for it . Do keep updating us. Yoroshku onegaishimasu.

[jervismun]

I ran it in my return with the rowa. Rowa is effective in every way. Worth every cents of it. And the convenience that comes with it. On thing also is that PO4 will be release back to the tank when Rowa is exhausted, it may also be my fault...

Oh ok... so you have not been changing Rowaphos as recommended... no wonder... the reason I ask is I have not tried Rowaphos before... yes the price is high but it may/may not be indicative of a superior product. I am still trying to find the more suitable phosphate removal media to run my new tank.

[nakazoru]

Oh ok... so you have not been changing Rowaphos as recommended... no wonder... the reason I ask is I have not tried Rowaphos before... yes the price is high but it may/may not be indicative of a superior product. I am still trying to find the more suitable phosphate removal media to run my new tank.

I did change the rowa for 3 mths. But I guess that the PO4 is high in the first place. It really goes beyond the instruction.

[sherman]

Thank You for sharing.

Will be nice if can find a cheaper alternatives for NO3

removal also.

Anyway good finding

[madmac]

nakazoru san,

Not beating the idea down, jus some questions if you don't mind. Why was the pH test necessary?

The iron that binds with PO4(orthophosphates), what does it yield? Do you have to use a mechanical filter to remove the brownish stuff, is that where the phosphates is bound to? How long have the tests been done to your own tank, any noticeable benefit?

[nakazoru]

Hi sherman;

For NO3, nature will take its course to break it down. But chemical treatment are also available, but it is something that I have not tested for a long time. So many biological treatment available and skimmer...

Hi Madmac;

Binding is by ferric oxide which is the brown stuff. Yes mechanical Filtration is necessary to remove it thus it is treated outside the tank. PH test is done because FeSO4 is acidic, at 4-5ph. By using a diluted solution, PH will still be approx 6ph. Adding it to the SW will drop the PH by some 0.1ph. I check to be sure.

Test I done so far:

Direct dosing into my Sump Tank, brown sludge settle onto sand and LR. I must say it is ulgy. mushie and zoa are all okay and not affected but the sludge remains in the tank for 2 week already... Too lazy to clean it. Thus it is not to be done to main system itself.

External treatment to main tank, only purified SW returns to tank, some 40% of the water so far. Observation mention previously is that the blasto and prata opens biggest so far, these corals in my sump, night cycle.

Today when main light cycle comes on. No only the SW is quite crystal clear, the goniopora show a slight tint of lumi green on its skirt from provious yellow. GSP seems thicker, even I did not scrub or blast the GSP. I hope it is not my imagination.

To be frank, it really took big courage to test. I literally put a couple thousand buck at risk. But now I'm quite convinced. But still need to monitor long term effect.

[asg]

??? why not just perform a water change instead of doing all this???

[hondaker]

do tapwater contain PO4? if so, would it be a great idea to run this filtration on the newly mixed water for those not on RO/DI systems?

[nakazoru]

??? why not just perform a water change instead of doing all this???

Your question seems a little sacrastic ... hmmm

Nonetheless, water change can be done in apporx 20-30% at a time unless you have a urgency to remove some crash one incur. If you using DI/RO with insignificant PO4, you effectively dilute PO4 by 30%. Say you have 3ppm it, your final PO4 will be 2 ppm slightly more. PO4 will then built until you change water again.

What the treatment I hope to acheive is to reduce PO4 without affecting nature of the water where fresh SW cannot acheive.