corals at fish farm

[mv3i]

anyone been to the farm lately ??? any corals shipment coming in ???

Do spread the word around if nothing is available ....

[B|uEc@rpEt]

Have not made any trips yet...this week

[mv3i]

ok ...thinking of saturday ... but someone said a shop was fined and everythin is hot again ... hence the need to check fm fellow reefers on that ??

[chanbi]

We should not talk about it in the "open".. But we really need to think of a way to communicate such information?

[ong]

but don't you think this is what a forum for. Sharing of information? If such info. was 'band' than how get market info.

[Achilles Tang]

Didn't you read my post here?

http://www.sgreefclub.com/forums/index.php...e18990d21356e5f

We can fine-tune our sharing of info... within a trusted circle of hobbyists... the rest can go all over SG to hunt for whatever they want to buy or to confiscate... heh!

I dunno... maybe I can create a private forum for those who are deemed trustworthy?

[ong]

AT, your msg. used is a bit strong - "those who are deemed trustworthy"

No hard feeling but I think is not right to said that in the forum. Sorry....

[Achilles Tang]

Hmm... sorrie if I offended you.

But then again... if you read into the word "trustworthy"... if you're not guilty of being in this forum for other purposes than to advance your knowledge in reef-keeping... then I see no reason why you should be offended.

If you want it straight... then I won't mince my words:

Who knows whether the A*A is posing as hobbyists to hear the latest info on which LFS has LR or hardcorals or clams so they can swoop down and raid?

Have you noticed how often you hear news of A*A confiscating livestock without the proper paperwork recently?

I believe the internet is good for news to spread quickly... but in the wrong hands... well...

I am in some way responsible for our LFS's continued bread and butter... as some of them has already beseeched me to control such info.

I'll be keen to hear your response to my explanation.

AT

[ong]

AT, I not offended but problem is how can you determine who are "trustworthy" and who not. Anyway, every ppl. should be responsible what is doing.

[Achilles Tang]

I dunno... honestly.

Maybe for a start, you can show me your A*A pass... hahahha!

It's a suggestion that proof be given by making the effort of a personal introduction, proof of your reef tank etc, active participation etc and that you're not some goberment squirrel trolling forums for where to get the illegal arowanas, LHs, LR, Hard Corals, clams, exotic frogs and snakes, dogs and cats are so you can go and raid!

Anyway, I never meant to get involved in this process... so my idea of a private forum for such info posting could be a bad idea.

But I'll leave it to you all to decide who you want to share such info with (with the buddy list via PM).

So if you are on someone's list... then good for you!

AT

[newdamsel]

Hmmm how about doing it this way, only those who is of a certain status say goby or higher or whatsoever get to access the "privileged forum" ??

In a way, it encourages forumers to participate in discussion and can ensure a certain level of trustworthiness as I believe AA wouldnt have the time to post that many questions and answers to that set standard..??

[pacificbetta]

Lets not get too involved in this thing. The farm guys have their way to work around the laws. IMO, whether we talk about coral availability in public or not is only a small factor in affecting the outcome of the current custom swops. How everyone feels about it and act upon it is their business.

In the meantime, lets just try to educate the public. After all, every one of us (myself included) here is responsible to a certain extent of destroying the coral reefs by buying wildly collected specimens. Every good advice given and heed means one less coral/fish die => one less coral/fish bought to replace it => one less coral/fish removed from the sea.

Hopefully, one day in an ideal world, the local marine shops will abide by CITES, the local will support them by buying more expensive CITES stocks and stopped buying illegally collected ones. Not that I think this day will come soon, singapore hobbyists, myself included, have been relatively spoilt to date as far as prices are concerned. Eg, I have a uncle that I introduced to marine, an act I regretted to date. Why? His attitude is buy a fish for $40, illtreat it and when it dies, spend another $40. After all it is only $40, in the meantime, he has a nice looking fish swimming in the living room, cheaper than luohan!

Now b4 I get ostrachised by everyone, I am not the one that does the tipping off, I just try to make do with what is around. No incentive for me to kill off the lfs, at least not any that I can think of at this moment.

EL

yet another example of someone who believe in something but does not always act upon it

[nivlac]

AT, your msg. used is a bit strong - "those who are deemed trustworthy"

No hard feeling but I think is not right to said that in the forum. Sorry....

To be honest, all of us are just hobbyists trying our best to protect each other's interests at the end of the day. We need to protect the LFS in order to enjoy the services and goods they have to offer.

The arguments can go on with no one being right or wrong. I remember when there was an aquatic plant mailing list, there was also some argument over whether prices or service experience with LFS should be posted as it will be too 'one-sided' and may mean that some LFS owners may be disadvantaged.

As I am only a plankton right now, based on that alone, that will not grant me any access if this info is only reserved for 'senior' aquarists, but that does not mean I'm not someone serious. My suggestion to remove this 'veil' that troubles many people is to get to know each other better. Perhaps a meetup of some sorts. That will certainly put a face to the name and inject a heck of a lot of trust.

[pacificbetta]

Hmmm how about doing it this way, only those who is of a certain status say goby or higher or whatsoever get to access the "privileged forum" ??

This is species discrimination, think how many light years it will be before I evolve from my current plankton status to "goby". Gosh, a bristleworm now seems like god from where I am.

rotifer Lam

(on the bright side, at least I am higher than phyto

[Tanzy]

Number of post does not mean anything nor does it indicate trustworthyness. I'm too sure I'm up to this 'conspiracy theory' or 'big brother is watching' ideas. They could use the forums but it's not that hard to just drive to the farms to have a look and confiscate. Having a reef tank means you are not them? I wonder what they do with the confiscated stuff? Might simply plop it into one of their tanks to die.

Did you know BG Lee has a marine tank maintained by Aquatechnic?

Trust no one.

The Turtle has spoken.

[nivlac]

The Turtle has spoken.

That's right Tanzy. The chief justice apparently has got an aquatechnic marine reef tank as well......

BTW, the avatar of your turtle looks more like a whale of sorts......

[mv3i]

wah .... i never knew this topic could get so complicated .... AT how to join the list???

[robe]

IMHO I don't mind them confiscating or banning clams without CITES certs as I see a lot of wanton waste the way some LFS import them. You can see a lot of big squamosas as tens and tens of croceas whose only fate is to die in the LFS tank or in a hobbiest tank who neglect to invest in good lighting to keep them alive.

If they can bring in good clams with CITES certs the high price for the clams would force those who buy them to take extra good care of their investment otherwise expensive clams equals to dead clams....we probably can also enjoy clams like what you see in US reeftanks..

Same thing with certain species of corals especially hard corals that takes years to grow to a decent size. There should be some control in the trade or environmentalists will have all their bullets to shut down the trade completely and that means serious reefers can no longer buy them.

There was a certain LFS who brought a bunch of very nice looking acros (with CITES certs some more) but did not have the facility or knowledge to keep them alive unitl they are bought. The result is that more than 1/2 of more than a hundred acros died within a day after arrival.

For those out there who wants to go into marine tanks please do some research before u start out and ask yourself do I have the patience, interest and resources to maintain this hobby. The national library have a lot of good marine and reef keeping books to guide the novice or else if ur are reading this , the net as well.

[Achilles Tang]

I think the moral of the story is that we hobbyists and LFS are subjected to the laws of demand and supply, whether it's motivated by greed, controlled by authorities, supplied by smart alecs and bought by fools and vice versa.

To be honest, I think the majority of CITES laws are good coz as a diver and marine lover, the sea is a beautiful place that is under threat and they serve to prevent over harvesting or harvesting using illegal methods.

However, there are is a rule which puzzles me to this day and that is the one about liverock. To me, liverock has not much need to be protected as we can always replenish rocks from the land back to the sea if we 'over harvest' them. They will become 'live' in short time!

So we have this situation where LR in LFS are not CITES cleared and they in a way, become 'contraband'!!! So we have hobbyists running all over the island to find our 'smelly and heavy gold' and LFS jacking prices up to make a killing, hoping to clear the shipment before the authorities come a-checking... and loose lips sink ships (to quote an old British WWII slogan)...

I don't where this post of mine is heading... but I think what I want to say is that till the day we accept the fact that we have to pay CITES-cleared livestock prices... and LFS only stock CITES-cleared livestock... then let's count our lucky stars every day till that day happens.

If by sharing info discreetly and not jeopardizing our sources of certain livestock, would it not help you and your hobby?

Or do we all take the moral high ground and tell the LFS that we only want to buy CITES-cleared livestock RIGHT NOW and reject what they have NOW?

*hic* If I don't make sense... it's the alcohol speaking... TGIF!!

AT

[pacificbetta]

>Or do we all take the moral high ground and tell the LFS that we only >want to buy CITES-cleared livestock RIGHT NOW and reject what they >have NOW?

Lets supposed we have a lfs that now takes in CITES-cleared stocks(a hypothetical scenario), while the rest continue to supply cheaper, but "illegal" Indonesian stocks, what will be our reaction?

A. Let our pockets do the talking. Cheaper = better, to hell to coral reefs. I am a Singaporean, not God.

B. Buy CITES stocks, only CITES stocks. I will help save the world.

C. Execute option B, but continue complaining why a fist-sized acropora costs $50 (which is about what the US/european/japan hobbyists are paying). In the meantime, bargain alot with the CITES lfs, citing the cheaper prices elsewhere, hope to pressurise him/her into getting a good price.

D. Pretend/Claim to be "B", but actually is "A"

E. None, of the above, I will be keeping only LHs from now on.

Not too serious, but nevertheless, I am curious what everybody stand is. Personally, I am somewhere between B and C, the C part can't help it lah, "I am Singapore, Singaporeans....." (Singing to the tune of "we are singapore")

EL

[X_Japan]

to be precise about the liverock question......

Can u imagine if people were to keep pulling out bricks from the flat that we were staying at??

sooner or later, the whole flat would just collapse, wouldn't it?

and the people who take LR out of the reefs would take it at the bottom of the reef, not at the top.

it's the same right?

sooner or later the whole reef would collapse due to insufficient rocks at the bottom to hold the top.

This was a report that I read in a national geographic quite a few years ago.

This might be the reason why CITES ban LR......

even if you were to dump back rocks from terrestial origin, it's not the same.

even if you put back how many tons also, it would never be the same how the reef is like normally.

[B|uEc@rpEt]

Let us juz do wat a 'politically rite' forum should do - share all relevant info.

Let us allow wat CITES has to do - protect our reefs!

Let us see how resourceful our LFS are - wriggle & survive/ die

Let us pay the price - we all koe its an expensive hobby

Let us all be responsible.

[hongqixian]

Wow! I haven't been in here for a while and so much has been going on.

Well said, bluecarpet!

then again, if theRe's some lfs who's horrible At takINg care of fish/corals and Because of that the majOrity dies then We could always tip off the authorities... anonymously?

Read carefully

[Achilles Tang]

X-Japan... I always thought that Liverock was mainly harvesting from deeper waters as most of them come devoid of coral encrusting & algae... of course those that come with algae would be from shallower waters... and thus would be important for coral reefs to grow on.

I doubt if they actually hack off rocks from the coral columns themselves... but if they are doing it.. by all means... BAN THEM!!!

But I guess the fact that many governments are sinking ships and other structures to become fish attracting devices and artificial reefs is a good thing...

AT

[hongqixian]

AT!

You mean you don't know that they always scrub the rocks clean of corals before export?