Quarantine Tank

[vtech2]

Hello,

I been keeping a 2ft tank for quite awhile now. Recently i purchased a Blue Tang. Within 3 days, white spots were showing so i took it out for a 5 minutes freshwater bath. The next day ich still persisted so i transferred it to a 1 1/2 feet quarantine tank. (Dun wury its big enough for Dory considering its size for now.) I've lowered the Sg to 1.009. I intend to leave it there for at least 2 weeks and hopefully he makes it.

I've a hang on filter only with wool and i transferred a bit of my sand and live rocks into the quarantine tank. Would i need a Skimmer as well? N what other things should i do. Its still active though and eating mysis soaked with Garlic Guard.

Will hyposalinity kill, shrimps and in future if i intend to get more tangs, would it be alrite to temporarily house them in this tank?

Inputs are all welcome!

[jervismun]

Bro... there are a lot of practices and methods surrounding this ich problem... all I can say is... if you manage to catch it out can quarantine it separately, why not use medication?

By putting it in freshwater... then lowering the Sg to 1.009... is definitely adding much stress to the fish... again... this is just my opinion on this issue.

Note: Do not ever dose medication into your main tank

[xersion]

ich is bery common for tang.. lolx no worry.. however i do have Octozin medicine left around 13 tablets.. if u wan i can give it to u.. or a small token lolx

[Elune]

Dear vtech,

as above mentioned, BT is notorious for being most prone to getting ich.

Q: Would i need a Skimmer as well?

A: Since you are conducting hyposalinity in this QT, its better to conduct regular water change instead of installing another skimmer. With regular water change, ur chances of removing ich-parasites-in-suspension is higher, so it reduces the amount of ich in the water with every water change.

Q: N what other things should i do.

A: No. Since it is already in hyposalinity, except for regular water change, no other medication should be added, especially those copper based medication. This is because by dropping the salinity of the water, what happened is that you decrease the effort of the BT to expel salt from its body, allowing the BT to focus its efforts and immune system to fight the ich-parasite. Ich-parasite are also least prone to survive in lower salinity waters (although it still can).

Whats even more important is that if you were to dose any copper-based medication, although is the most effective towards ich-parasite, it subjects the BT to higher chances of developing other problems.

Keep the QT clear of anything things.

In addition, you mentioned you also added some sand and liverocks to the tank. Note that your liverock might absorb the medication (if copper) if u had dosed any, and if you even intend to bring this liverock back into the main tank, I feel it might do harm than good. in addition, keeping the liverock in the QT under hyposalinity condition (1.009), might kill off positive bacterias as well. Bad move in my opinion.

Q: Will hyposalinity kill shrimps ?

A: Yes it most probably will. Shrimps are invertebrates, and they are the least tolerant towards sudden fluctuations in salinity.

I hope that when you dropped ur QT's salinity to 1.009, it was done gradually over abt 2-3 days. If not, if your BT is ok, then good lah. Just remember to gradually increase ur salinity back to the normal OVER 2-3 DAYS when u finished the treatment.

Q: in future if i intend to get more tangs, would it be alrite to temporarily house them in this tank?

A: That will be most ideal. Since tangs are most susceptible to ich and diseases, quarantining them in a separate tank and conditioning them over a period is always a wise move.

Last but not least, DO NOT ever dose anti-ich medication into main tank(esp. if it is copper base), and NEVER EVER conduct hyposalinity in main tank if you have corals and invertebrates.

Good luck with the treatment and keep us posted of the results.

[blackpuma]

Here's my QT setup. 2 ft tank bare bottom with no live rock and sand. I use a powerhead attached to a cointainer of bio balls.

Incidentally, I have 2 dory in my OT tank for about 6 weeks already. I use seachem cupramine at .2ppm for the 1st 2 weeks and then reduce the concentration of copper to 0 by 25% water changes forthnightly. Once no copper is detectable, observe the fish for another 2 weeks before placing into display tank.

This method has worked for me. Wild caught fish adapting to captive enviroment is subjected to a lot of stress, the stress causes white spots, ich etc etc. Copper is used to supress the parsites before it takes a hold and kill the fish eventually.

HTH

[vtech2]

To use medication or not.... still torn... What medicine u suggest bro Jervis, since u r the king of Purchases, i'm sure your various experiences would help out... But pls ah dun quote me some medication imported from Germany, my pocket not so deep as yours

Thanks bro Xersion, will contact u if i need it...

Unfortunately when i introduced my blue tang into Sg 1.009 there was no gradual steps involved But the bugger still ok after two days....

Yeah bro Elune, i'll conduct 25 % water changes, hopefully weekly would be sufficient.

The reason i added the sand and liverock into the quarantine tank is so it can calm the blue tang to a more safer environment and bring the beneficial bacteria to stablise the tank. Hopefully all the benficial bacteria dun die off la....

However at the end of the quarantine, i'm intending to put back the sand/Live rock back into the main tank. Good/Bad Move?

The beneficial bacteria dying off never mind la, when enter my main tank, it will grow back.... But worried if the Ich attach themselves onto the sand/Live rocks....

2 days effect of hyposalinity and Freshwater bath (Did Once only) Not bad u know, before i did, got many tiny tiny dots all over, now dont seem to be much more, it seems to disappear abit however got white patches here and there la.... Hope its a good sign and Dory will pull through!

[andylee]

Bro, dun do FW dip or bath.

Hypo is the best and safest way to go.

Since now already at low sg, when ich completely disappear from the tang, give it a week or two more then slowly raise up the sg to same as main tank again.

[Elune]

vtech:

i acknowledge that there are 2 schools of thought in terms of dosing medication or not dosing medication. I respect both views. Both have their reasons and both are correct.

I just feel that if you decide to conduct hyposalinity, then give it a pure 100% hyposalinity, dun dose this and that. My opinion only.

I am not versed in the field of reefing medication, so asking jervismun for advice = ideal.

Regarding placing the liverock and sand back into the maintank (from QT), yes, i agree that the possibility of the ich parasites attaching themselves on the substrate and getting introduced into the maintank is high. U might not wanna risk that.

If you are worried about something that might happen, it might happen.

[Elune]

Below is an extract from an internet source, i forgot where, but i think the author is Steven Pro:

I have found the best quarantine/hospital tanks to be bare bottomed (no crushed coral or sand) and decorated with inert, nonporous, and "easy-to-clean-and-sanitize" items. Short sections of various diameter PVC pipe work very well for shelter. Live rock does not meet these criteria and therefore I do not recommended its use. It is best to not use any calcareous materials as they will absorb and interfere with some medications.

There is also another possible benefit to using all of these smooth, artificial materials in your quarantine tank. In studying outbreaks of Cryptocaryon irritans in Brown Spotted Grouper (Epinephelus tauvina) at an aquaculture station, Rasheed (1989) found that fish kept in concrete vessels routinely fell victim to Ich while those kept at the same facility with identical care, but in fiberglass containers suffered absolutely no infestations. She theorized that the cyst stage of the parasite found the smooth sides of the fiberglass tanks inhospitable. While not proven, it is very interesting and definitely something to keep in mind. At the very least, this type of setup is extremely easy to clean and disinfect if necessary.

Copper has several disadvantages in treating Ich. First, at too low a dosage, it is ineffective. Secondly, at too high a dosage, it could kill all your fish. Daily, or better yet twice daily, testing is required to maintain an appropriate and consistent level of copper. Even when within the appropriate ranges, some fish cannot tolerate copper. Some of the fish more sensitive to copper are lionfish, pufferfish, mandarins, blennies, and any other scaleless fish. Copper is also a known immunosuppressive, making fish more susceptible to secondary infections. Invertebrates are extremely sensitive to copper and cannot be housed in a tank undergoing this treatment. Lastly, copper cannot be used in the presence of any calcareous media. Live rock, sand, crushed coral, and dead coral skeletons will all adsorb copper, rendering it useless a treatment.Copper specifically targets the infectious, free-swimming theront stage of this disease, as being buried deep in the skin of the host protects the trophonts; the cyst walls of the tomonts are similarly impervious (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). Knowing this and the life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans, monitoring and dosing as needed in the evening right before the lights go out is going to be the most effective method. This should ensure optimal treatment concentrations at the most beneficial time.

Copper is probably the most popular method of treating Cryptocaryon irritans, but is not my first choice. It is far too labor intensive for me to recommend to the general public, has a large risk of overdose, lowers the fish's resistance to other diseases, and can cause serious damage to the kidney, liver, and beneficial intestinal flora of the fish being treated. Damage to intestinal flora is what many hobbyists point to as a possible contributing cause for Head and Lateral Line Erosion (HLLE), although there is currently no definitive cause of HLLE.

Hope this helps!

[xersion]

i also dun recommand adding LR in to it.. cause u can see ur tang will always run its body on the LR. This will cause serious wound to the tang.. just like what happen to my tang.. it run till i can part of its skin is dropping off

[Underwater]

She theorized that the cyst stage of the parasite found the smooth sides of the fiberglass tanks inhospitable. While not proven, it is very interesting and definitely something to keep in mind. At the very least, this type of setup is extremely easy to clean and disinfect if necessary.

Always excited to learn from other fellow reefers how they deal with this most irritating parasites that spoilt our mood in reefing.

Read somewhere that ich parasites need to go thru a cycle.

The parasitic stage (trophonts) is the one that results in the appearance of white spots all over the fish. The trophonts burrow under the skin where they feed on body fluids and tissue debris. When the trophonts first infect the fish they are small but grow as they feed and so the white spots are initially small but get larger as they mature. Once mature, they drop off the fish and sink/swim down to the substrate where they encyst and begin to reproduce. In this stage they are called tomonts. After a number of days in which the tomonts divide, the cyst ruptures, releasing the tomites. Tomites may differentiate into theronts, the infective stage, which actively seek a host to reinfect.

Hence, if we can break the cycle by not providing a substrate for it to reproduce after it drops off from the host fish (tomonts) during the encyst stage in the quarantine tank, then therotically the parasites shd die off without the need for medication or hypo. i wonder if this works...

But maybe this parasite is not that easy to dealt with after all and hypo seemed to be the preferred method to rid the parasites by most reefers if quarantine fishes before releasing into main tank is not an option...

Just some thoughts to share...

[vtech2]

Should have put more thought before putting in the sand/live rocks... Well we live and learn . Anyhow, i think i shall continue leaving in the live rocks and the thin layer of sand in the quarantine tank.... I wont transfer the sand to my main tank after hypo is over but i'll transfer the liverocks over. But i;ll freshwater dip the liverocks for an hour before doing so....

However my worry now is while the Sg is being maintained at 1.009. and the ich parasite is slowly being exterminated, will the sand/liverock enable it to survive though?

I know normally after ich detachs itself from the fish, it will burrow in the sand and liverocks before finding another host to attach itself onto, but in hyposalinity conditions chances of it surviving in the substate are also low rite? I hope it does not significantly increase the chances of the ich to survive because i have already added them in if not

[Elune]

( =__= ") hmmm... good question, i have no answer to this... but i have a sure-work solution to this worry of yours ---- just remove the sand and the rocks~

like wat was posted above, keep the QT free from liverocks and sand.

[vtech2]

Alrite then.... One more thing though. i'm intending to purchase either a PBT or a yellow Tang soon.. They are also ich prone and since i already set up a hypo tank, wld it be alrite for me to introduce it to hyposalinity immediately to kill off the ich parasites if any since it is a new purchase rather then put it into my main tank....

Of course i'll wait a while till my blue tang recovers better... This idea poped out since a lot of reefers experience ich esp with newly acquired PBTs... so why not hypo it starightaway and within 2 weeks if there isnt any signs then i'll transfer it to my main tank... Possible?

[k0na_scab]

Hypo will cause your pH to drop , remember to buffer.

The process is long & tiring(IMHO). Of cause it works but on the aspect of time & money, i would dose formalin based medication.

Last i would try is Copper. Just reading off the test kits would make your eyes >.< with the colouration chart.

The ich, tomonts would survive even on BB.

The skimmer wouldnt foam as nice compared to saltwater at full strength. U can add in if u want.

Keep your water quality good & the blue tang feeding , it should recover.

Make sure that the fish is fully recovered before purchasing another. imagine 2 fish in the QT ...

Chances are very high for Powder Blue Tang to have Ich.

I would go for the Yellow Tang. LOL

[zurc]

hi,

just wanted to share my experience regarding ich treatment... I haven't tried hypo... i don't have the patience (yet) to do that... but i tried/combined 3 other methods... (1st) I used chem-marine, IMHO, this one helped... i administered it for 10 days with a 5-day break after the first 5 days. at times i administered it while feeding time to maximize their exposure to it. (2nd) after a few weeks, I installed a cheap (S$25) UV light (9W) and kept it running 24x7. (3rd) Cleaner Shrimps (those with white stripes on their back, i think it's Lysmata Amboinensis or Grabhami)... I've read somewhere that these fellas do eat those ich in the fishes... though i haven't really seen them pick out the parasites, i sometimes see some of my LS approach them for some cleaning...

By the way, when i added a BT in my tank, the white spots alarmed me (for the first few days)... i contemplated on catching it and putting it in a QT... but i couldn't catch it, so i just let him be... so far my BT is still alive, white spots are gone and most of all feeding very well.

by the way (again), i'm also a newbie... got interested in this hobby just 2 months ago. So far, i haven't lost any LS that I haven't quarantined. i'm never good at QT... i tried it and lost all fishes that went through it... a juvy batfish, koran, MI-looking fish, red scooter blenny (well actually this one jumped out of the QT)...

zurc

[Elune]

In the case of treatment with Formalin above, you might wanna read the below extract first :

Formalin can be administered one of two ways; either in short dips with saltwater or used continually in a hospital tank. The dosage for the continuous use is 1 ml of the 37% stock solution for every 25 gallons of quarantine tank water (Bassleer, 1996). I prefer the formalin dip to continuous use because formalin is a fairly toxic compound. Also, with no commercially available test kits to monitor the concentration, it would be difficult to dose an entire tank and account for evaporation, absorption, etc.

To prepare the dip, I take 5 gallons of tank water and add to it 3.75 ml of 37% formalin. I also aerate the water vigorously to ensure there is maximum dissolved oxygen. The dip should last 30 to 60 minutes. As when using any medication, it is best to monitor the fish's reaction and be prepared to act if it appears in distress. When the dip is complete, net the fish, place it back into the hospital tank, and discard the dip water. This protocol should be repeated every other day for two weeks.

I would like to remind readers of a few precautions regarding the use of formalin. First, it is a carcinogen. Formalin is an aqueous solution of carcinogenic formaldehyde gas, so gloves should be worn and the area should be well ventilated when using it. Secondly, formalin should not be used if fish have open sores, wounds, or lesions. It is likely to cause tissue damage to these open wounds. And lastly, formalin can rob the water of dissolved oxygen. That is why proper aeration is so crucial. For that reason, do not use formalin if the water temperature is 82*F or higher (Noga, 2000 and Michael, 2002).

[vtech2]

Good news Guys! Hoo hoo, Dory seems to be on the path of recovery abt 70% of the spots are gone and it is day 3 into hypo....

1) On the note if he is recovering how long more should i leave him in hyposalinity after not being able to see the spots on him anymore?

2) Juz a question, if i intending to convert this quarantine tank into my second marine tank since the sand and liverocks are already in, how should i do so? After the hyposalinity period is over is it ok to juz throw away the current water and add in new water from my main tank.... Hopefully the ich parasites dont linger on if not i will have to conduct hyposalinity again...

[Elune]

Dear vtec:

you might wanna take a look at this chart first :

1) The disappearance of the white spots could be a sign of recovery, but it could also meant that the ich parasite has gone into the next stage of their life cycle - Tomonts stage - where they encyst onto the substrates (ur liverocks and sand! Thats why we told you to remove the Liverocks and sand).

Depending on the temperature, within the next 3-28 days, these tomonts encystments could break and hundreds of tomites will be released back into the water... seeking for a fish to host! And re-infect the fish again...

Fret not... just continue to monitor the fish~ and do regular water change, and you will be breaking up the life cycle of the parasite. To be very very confirm, sure, guarantee, chop stamp, assure, that the parasites are no more, keep the fish in the QT over at least 2 cycles of the parasites' life cycle (thats max of 28days X 2) --- roughly 2 months.

Ya, its a long wait. But its the theory lah. This is to safeguard the rest of the livestock in your tank.

2) Erm... 1 and a half feet Q-tank converting into marine tank? Consider this after you cured ur fish first lor~

Good luck~ hope Dory pulls thru~ remember to keep it feeding.

[vtech2]

Thnxs bro Elune!