Nitrate Reduction - the real facts

[somebody]

but isn't the water in the bag, similar the water that yo ubuy from LFS? haha

[May&Bruce]

somebody, that's why I mix my own!

I have had two outbreaks of disease before, and both correlated to LFS water...

Anyway, why take a risk and see your tank livestock get destroyed if it can be avoided?

[Dazza]

hey, those bros that say that your tank has been 20(or whatever firgure)ppm for a looong time, do you guys still change water regularly? or what? how come can stay constant one? i thought it'll definitely go up with time and feeding?

hahaha when u said loooonngg time hahaha means i dont let the nitrate situation worsen than 25 ... weekly or fortnitelywater tests...... once nitrate hits 20-25 = reduced feeding & then water chg 15-20% next week.... i usu chg water between once a mth to once every 2 mths, letting the nitrate lvl be my gauge of how "clean" my water is....

[Gouldian]

My tank has 100ppm of NO3, but hor, my LPS is all growing and opening. I am trying to reduce the NO3 to less the 10ppm, if possible thru the use of a non-suphur base denitrator.

Bro Tigger, please share your results of your Denitrator whenever possible.

Cuz as you know, I have one sitting in my store awaiting new tank. hehehehe

[vito]

never put the water from fish bag from LFS to your tank because some of the LFS use copper additives to maintain the Fish only tank to avoid White spot or any Bacteria and if you have the fish from along journey at the bag the water will contain high amonia so don't put to your tank just use fish net ....

[ervine]

So that means u guys literally drain the water in the bag away and replace it with tank water bit by bit?

I also stopped bothering to chase the 0 nitrate number.. esp so since I turned completely LPS... only have some issues with algae but that can be resolved via other means...

also, I run a refugium with thriving macro algae, i think that helps biologically regulate nitrates in the tank.. I would highly recommend it...

[somebody]

bro, how you resolves your issue with algae? what are your other means? =)

[atos]

VEry good discussion, but I'm very suprrised of high nitrate levels that some aqurist runing of. 50, 100...mg/l this are danherius levels even for fishes, not to mention corals.Reef habitats are known nutritions poor enviorment. By nutritient we usualy mean chemical compaund utilized by the photosynthetic organizms. For example Great Barier reef have regular readings of 1 mM(micromolar). This can not be measured by most sensitive test that aquarist can obtain. But for an ilistration if one measure 1 mg/l in his reef tank, this corespondent to 16 mM, and that is 16 times higher concentration than in the natur. 50, 100 ppm(mg/l), something have to be done, RO watr, quality live rock, refugia....

[May&Bruce]

I used to be surprised at hearing many ppl say that they had zero, or undetectable levels. Now I am feeling that my 10-15mg is not so bad.

With my 5 foot reef tank with about 50kg of live rock and a good size becket skimmer I was also expecting to see zero nitrates, but the tank has only been running 4 months so I don't think that my plenum/DSB has kicked in yet. I guess I need to wait a lot longer for all the good bacteria to grow

[ervine]

bro, how you resolves your issue with algae? what are your other means? =)

actually i only had problems with hair algae... could never get rid of it till I got myself a seahare which literally ate all of the algae...

now that the seahare has passed (see the seahare thread on how I accidentally killed my seahares) for some reason the hair algae never came back... and in the instances where it LOOKED like it was coming back I took out the rock, gave it a good scrubbing, dunked the affected area in freshwater and put back the rock...

other methods I've tried include running an FR with phosphate absorbing media which I did for a while but in the end stopped doing... and of course like I said, do it the biological way, refugium... the macro algae in my refugium doubles in volume every 1-2weeks.. which all goes to show how much nutrients they are pulling out of the water...

[Travy]

My theory: Dont fix it if it aint broken guys...

[cityofangels]

NEVER NEVER NEVER add any of the water in the bag into your tank when buying live stock.

I agree with this point.. During the transportation of fishes, don't you notice that there's usually alot of waste in the bag by the time you reach home? I think it's due to the stress of the transportation that fishes produce more waste, which is why I never pour the water from the bag into my tank.

[gift05]

gift05: how much does he sell a jerry can for?

3 bucks a can with a $5 deposit for the jerry.

if my tank crashes after a water change or there's a sudden outbreak of some strange algae/disease, will let you guys know haha

oh i leave the water bought from the LFS aside for about a week b4 i use it.

[blueheaven]

I used to be surprised at hearing many ppl say that they had zero, or undetectable levels. Now I am feeling that my 10-15mg is not so bad.

With my 5 foot reef tank with about 50kg of live rock and a good size becket skimmer I was also expecting to see zero nitrates, but the tank has only been running 4 months so I don't think that my plenum/DSB has kicked in yet. I guess I need to wait a lot longer for all the good bacteria to grow

Check out my article on sandbeds if you are not sure whether you have set it up correctly

Basically, the secret is this:

Good skimmer --- Extract out DOC before they decompose into nitrates

Water changes --- Dilute nitrate levels in the system

Sandbed (properly set up) --- Convert nitrate into nitrogen gas

Do take note about the water changes part as dilution meaning you add in DI or RO/DI water.

I've heard many people say they did water changes and they still have detectable nitrates which is because they used tap water when they do a water change.

[May&Bruce]

Singapore tap water has around 4-5mg of NO3, at least where i live in Bukit Batok (I had it tested by an analytical laboratory).

My next DIY project is a DI system...

[tineng]

However, well know coral/reef guru Julian Sprung states in one of his books that many corals actually do well in the more Nitrate-rich waters (up to 40 or so, I can not remember the exact figure he stated).

errr....i think most likely he is refering to nutrient....not nirtate....also if i'm not wrong, he was refering to cases of corals in nutruent rich waters...meaning things like sofites, mushies....etc....definatey not SPS...

It is possible to achieve 0 No3 level, even on a small 2 feet nano. It can also be done in a cost effectively manner by regular water changes, careful selection of Live stocks, prudent feeding (example, small feeding lots of times a day), wet skimming using weipro and lots of patience (1/2 year or more before putting in your first coral). In fact it isn't too diffcult, i have done it before, i think Madmac is doing it now...

IMO, it really isn't too diffcult to achieve if you are prudent in your selection of LS (for example, don't buy a blue tang and put it in a 2 footer, even though its very tiny now) and definately not a waste of money. In fact, i'm of the opinon that you will endup cleaning your tank glass less often thus saving you precious time in enjoying your tank....

[atos]

bluheaven, I do not know were your article is, I'm knew and still geting used to the web.

When I'm talking for the water in the reef aquaristic, I even do not think of the tap water, for me teh RO, Di RO/DI is a must.

DSB, I even do not want to talk abouth, sorry friend , it is simple big nutritien trap for me, noway to oprate it corectly.

cheers

[blueheaven]

Read my article and it may change some of your views

http://www.sgreefclub.com/forum/index.php?...pic=42588&st=75

From my experience, DSB is crucial in nutrient control in my reef as I have wonderfully coralline encrusted LR. But ever since I've removed my sandbed, I feel that nutrient control is more difficult.

Of course, like I've always emphasized, proper understanding of sandbed dynamics is important and I credit the success of my sandbed to my own culture of infauna which many reefers do not practice

[blueheaven]

Sorry for the wrong link

http://www.sgreefclub.com/forum/index.php?...4450&hl=article

[atos]

bluheaven, it is very good article, I appriciate you efforts. But, this is all well known for me from the books of Shimek. Unfotentaly it can not change or clear my views, or chnge my approach .

For me the deep sand bed is hard to established as propsed as from the auothors. It is imposible to calculate which bacteria "infauna" organizmas will populate, would they be in enough number, and would they be capable enough to do the job as supposed to do.

For me thin sand bad, corser, good skimer, ro water...etc...more clasical Berlin setup is the best method I have run. and strong curent in tank.

[blueheaven]

Yes you are right and I had to go through the trouble to culture my own infauna

But sandbeds are not nutrient sinks if well managed so I hope readers do not get the wrong impression

[somebody]

how to culture? hmm..

[blueheaven]

It's really simple and I'll just touch the surface since we are getting out of topic

What to culture --- Worms, pods, stars

How to culture --- Phytoplankton, algae, sand

[May&Bruce]

i support blue heavens view on DSBs, although I would like to know how to grow more 'infauna' - what's your secret to success, Blueheavan?

Tineng......

QUOTE (May&Bruce @ Nov 28 2005, 05:10 PM)

However, well know coral/reef guru Julian Sprung states in one of his books that many corals actually do well in the more Nitrate-rich waters (up to 40 or so, I can not remember the exact figure he stated).

errr....i think most likely he is refering to nutrient....not nirtate....also if i'm not wrong, he was refering to cases of corals in nutruent rich waters...meaning things like sofites, mushies....etc....definatey not SPS...

Actually, what Charles Delbeek & Julian Sprung state in their book "The Reef Aquarium" Volume 1, p231 is as follows"

"...The nitrate level in reef aquariums should be less than 1ppm as Nitrate-Nitrogen ideally, but need not be maintained so low. In fact, elevated nitrate levels as hish as 10 ppm nitrate-nitrogen (approx. = 40 ppm niitrate ion NO3) may encourage more rapid growth of both soft and stoney corals (D Stuber, pers. comm.). The principal disadvantage to higher nitrate levels is the effect on alkalinity and pH.... Nitrate stimulated growth by the corals causes greater usage (removal) of calcium from the water, while the accumulation of nitrate depletes the alkalinity in a closed system..."

So according to Delbeek & Sprung, putting it simply, ideally nitrate levels should be below 4.4 ppm NO3 ( 1 ppm NO3-N or nitrate-nitrogen = 4.4 ppm NO3 or nitrate ion), but NO3 does not need to be maintained so low. The drawback of higher nitrates is the corals will use the calcium from the water more quickly and the alkalinity is depleted...of course both the calcium and alkalinity levels can be controlled by other means.

Of course, this does not mean that we can live with vey high levels of NO3. I think that most people won't argue that NO3 levels greater than 50 ppm or so, will be potentially dangerous to corals and that levels over 100 are dangerous for fish.

Note, in seawater ppm is equivalent to mg/L so these unit can be used interchangeably.

Also note that some Nitrate test kits measure Nitrate-Nitrogen (NO3-N) and others measure Nitrate ion (NO3). As I stated above, 1 ppm NO3-N = 4.4 ppm NO3. So, if you are using a test kit that measures NO3-N you need to multiply the result by 4.4.....

[somebody]

bro, maybe you can do an article on it?? hehe =)

thanks for sharing the info.... now i'm more enlightened.