Help!!! What causing this

[nicholas_yeo]

Hi all

My tank crashed today and I couldn't quite figure it out. Due to high nitrate recently, I did a 20% water change and took out all the coral chips which having alot of detritus in it (nitrate factory). I replaced the polyfilter sponge as well.

I observed for 2 hrs and things looks fine. This morning I came in, all my corals closed up and some of my fish/ invert went up the lorry (YT, Clown fish and 2 cleaner shrimp).

I measured my parameters and things looks okay

Salinity = 1.020 at 25DegC (I know this is border line)

Ammonia = 0

Nitrite = not measured

Nitrate = down to 25-50ppm

Ph= 8.2

Tank size: 2 ft Cube table (~45 gallons).

Water Change = about 8 gallon from Sealife

Chemical medium: Rowaphos / Aquaz Carbon and Chemi-pure / Polyfilter

Skimmer: Macro: ASF500

Daily topup water: I use mineral water for the last one 2 wks - Ice Mountain brand. Previously used tap water. I was testing it coz the sand bed was covered with diatom (Red) and I believe my nutrient from the water is too high. No $$ to invest in any DI/RO unit so can't tell.

Observation: All the chemical medium and skimmer was all the same. I didn't change anything. The filternets for medium and Polyfilter has turn red instead of the usual dark brown after long usual (Not sure why?)

Anyone has similar problems b4? I couldn't figure out what is the cause of it. I believe sealife water is clean as they took it from their topoff tank that is also use for their fishes.

I can only think of the polyfilter and mineral water for topup as likely causes which are changed recently.... can anyone help here?

nick

[nicholas_yeo]

This is the color of the polyfilter. I never seen it in red b4. Usually it is a dark brown after exhausting it. I use it for the last 8 mths and this is the 1st time.

The instruction saids Polyfilter leech nothing into the water; so I initially concluded that it is absorbing 'whatever' stuffs is giving me problems now but I decided to take it out.

[nakazoru]

This is the color of the polyfilter. I never seen it in red b4. Usually it is a dark brown after exhausting it. I use it for the last 8 mths and this is the 1st time.

The instruction saids Polyfilter leech nothing into the water; so I initially concluded that it is absorbing 'whatever' stuffs is giving me problems now but I decided to take it out.

Certainly your water seems not right, to have that color. What is the food you offer, overfeeding? If you have that color after the crash, leaving tank empty for it to settle first. It may be cyno in the water too but not common.

Introduce some active carbon to remove any chemical that is unable to test. Should clear in one week. Good luck.

[May&Bruce]

Something really wrong.....that red does not look good. Think you need to do a much larger water change - 50% or even more. Acivated carbon will help to remove any toxic chemicals from the water. Don't be stingy when buying the carbon - get a good one with low/no phosphate or you might leach phosphate into the tank and give all your algae a hari raya treat!

[lightningstrike]

My tank crashed today and I couldn't quite figure it out. Due to high nitrate recently, I did a 20% water change and took out all the coral chips which having alot of detritus in it (nitrate factory). I replaced the polyfilter sponge as well.

I observed for 2 hrs and things looks fine. This morning I came in, all my corals closed up and some of my fish/ invert went up the lorry (YT, Clown fish and 2 cleaner shrimp). 

u shld hv removed ur coral chips by stages and not all at one shot. there is a sudden loss of biological filtration and i guess that loss is too huge for ur LS to take.

I measured my parameters and things looks okay

Salinity = 1.020 at 25DegC (I know this is border line)

Ammonia = 0

Nitrite = not measured

Nitrate = down to 25-50ppm

Ph= 8.2

Tank size: 2 ft Cube table (~45 gallons).

Water Change = about 8 gallon from Sealife

IMO, salinity is best kept btw 1.023-1.025.

Chemical medium: Rowaphos / Aquaz Carbon and Chemi-pure / Polyfilter

Skimmer: Macro: ASF500

FYI chemi-pure is also GAC.

Daily topup water: I use mineral water for the last one 2 wks - Ice Mountain brand. Previously used tap water. I was testing it coz the sand bed was covered with diatom (Red) and I believe my nutrient from the water is too high. No $$ to invest in any DI/RO unit so can't tell.

dun think that's diatom, shld be cyanobacteria.

[May&Bruce]

I had a cyanobacteria outbreak in my reeftank - started coating everything - sand LR, even some corals. Tore my head out trying to find the source - nitrates, phosphates were low. Finally improved the problem by increasing the water flow rate and turbulence. Doubled the size of the return pump (now turn over the tank water 10 times in an hour) and added an extra power head to circulate water in the tank (now have 3 powerheads in a 5 foot tank). The cyanobacteria disappeared within a couple of days.

[nicholas_yeo]

Thanks Guys, but those are not it. I talked to Sealife boss. He said I shouldn't remove all the coral chips - claimed the bacteria will release 'toxic /poison' into the water...

Anyway, I ask him for advise, he do not believe I need to change more water and let the tank stablise down.

Anyway, I wasn't overfeeding anything; use ocean nutrition formula one and two. Was doing good last few wks.

May&Bruce: My water turn rate is about 10 times. It is about 100 litre tank with a 1500L/hr return pump with 2 elbows.

Ligthningstrike: I agreed with u. I think the spike from the coral chip removal is a main contributor..... very sad. Wrong move - should have done 50% only.

nakazoru: I did replaced the GAC partially and Rowaphos. But those are not the contributor since I have been running it for a long time with it.

[May&Bruce]

In my earlier 3 foot heavily stocked fish and coral tank, I also had coral chips in the sump. Upon advice from a LFS I removed all the chips at once, and never had any problems at all - maybe I was just lucky, eh?

[May&Bruce]

Anyway, I disagree with the Sealife boss in as much as IF removing the coral chips has released toxins into the water then doing a major water change is the best way to reduce those toxins quickly. Don't worry about any 'shock effect' of new water on your existing fish or corals - the shock effect of new water is far less stressful than the effect of the toxins that have already claimed many of your fish!

[madmac]

I think the cause is the red thinggy... some dinoflagellate algae, thats harmful.. a similar sort that cause the dreadful toxic 'Red Tide'.

How did the fishes look when they died? Did they look as though they suffocated, gills and mouth opened ?

They could have have already existed in small less harmful qty and it could have boom when you did a partial water change. ...although I wouldn't rule out that it could possibly have existed/come from the water you bought from Sealife, and the stirring of the bed of coral chips cause their boom afew hours later.

Generally speaking, good clean water does nothing bad to your tank, in big quantities or small, every bit is welcomed. Imagine the good clean tides tt comes in twice a day in some parts of the world...

[nicholas_yeo]

yah, I heard of red tide. But things still didn't improved. The rest of my stocks now is under quarantined in a bucket with air pump. Still kicking - hope they will live thru. Very sad that my YT died.... it was a beauty.

Now I noticed my caluerpa are absorbing the 'toxin', its leaves are turning red.

May&Bruce: I initially believe taking the coral chips should kill anything but I am not so sure now. I agreed that water change should dilute the toxin rather than spike it. But I not sure what else can cause the displacement. Maybe some odd kinda of chemical reaction that is like 2 things are not suppose to be mix together.... but I got no idea where those are ... urgg.. driving me nuts....

Or could it be the polyfilters are fake and it is leeching some chemical instead of absorbing it..... just a theory...

madmac: The fishs was lerthagic and was gasping for air. But not like they died with mouth open.... I understand sealife boss uses RO unit for his water source, so I thot it is a much safer judgement.

Still, this is an unsolved mystery........... looks like my tank has to lay dormant for a month to purge out all the toxin first. Now must find my remaining clowns and blue tang a new home.

[dreamzcape]

Hmm,IMO, the 100% removal of coral chips was definitely not a good idea and the more you see that there's something wrong with your water i think the more you should change. CAn't remember read from where, if you swim in ur own pee and shit, shouldn't you be happier if you exported more waste and have a fresh dose of cleaner water?(largely paraphrased)

by the way, just a side note, ice mountain water contains nitrates and phosphates if i'm not wrong. They have the ion concentration printed somewhere along the side coz i think it's classified as mineral water. I think distilled water is safer to use for top up. Also noticed there's this water called alkali water that's for drinkin too, sold at NTUC. wonder if the it helps the tank in any way.

all the best for your fishes anyway!

[ervine]

did u keep any anenome, slug, cuke, sea apple or any other creature that's inherently poisionous? maybe it got chopped up in a pump

[nicholas_yeo]

dreamzcape: Yah, I stopped a few days ago. Maybe it is due to the mineral water content but it wasn't added anymore. If the problem is link, then it is odd that it happens after I do 20% water change which should dilute it rather than kill my fish.

ervine: I understand the risks, hence, no poisonous critters or anemone in my tank.

[nakazoru]

Anyway, I disagree with the Sealife boss in as much as IF removing the coral chips has released toxins into the water then doing a major water change is the best way to reduce those toxins quickly. Don't worry about any 'shock effect' of new water on your existing fish or corals - the shock effect of new water is far less stressful than the effect of the toxins that have already claimed many of your fish!

I think toxin referred here is nitrate. Removing it will not cause nitrate outbreak if done properly. Nonetheless I dun believe will solve the root of the problem. I use bio-ring and rinse it every month to remove whatever stuck there and replace whatever water there, it is okay if well maintained.

Back to the reds, I think it may be true that the LS suffocated whatever those red stuff. For your polyfilter to be that color, the water has high concentration of it. Worst if they absorb oxygen.

One suggestion, is to blast air into the tank, add a skimmer if you have combine with whatever chemical media you have, and one week you will be up and running.

[nicholas_yeo]

nakazoru: Yes, U shared your view. I clean my coral chips and wash it monthly as well. But this time, the only different is I took it out. But I do not believe this is the main cause.

My oxygen level should be holding up. My venturi skimmer is full blast with the 10 times return pump. No skimmate out yet; must be affected by the toxin level.

As u said, now I just put back all the chemical and filter media and wait for a wk.

[nicholas_yeo]

Reading the red tide symptons are making me believe it is more and more similar to my tank condition!!!!

http://www.botany.uwc.ac.za/Envfacts/redtides/

Theory:

If this is the case, thats mean the culprits - dinoflagellates planktons was there all along and some how the water change causing it to bloom suddenly and deplete all the oxygen in the water....

Now my problem is it suppose to be happening in coast of florida or mexico. How did it end up in my tank in singapore.....

2nd issue is no website talks about how it subsides and dies off.... so how long am i suppose to wait.

Should I tear down my tank and rebuild again.... (uhm.... sob sob.... so much work)

[Kelmen]

I would really recommend you work up the carbon things now.

If all the water parameter looks no out-of-ordinary, then we have to put the cause is at some un-detectable through hobbyist testkits.

The carbon will at least play some role in it.

And mean while try the ReefCentral chemist subforum, the expert there may have some idea about the red symptom

GL

[FuEl]

Dinoflagellates can be present in our waters too. Normally such outbreaks are associated with increases in nutrient load in the water, in your case might have been caused by disturbing the coral chips and releasing everything into the water coclumn.

[nicholas_yeo]

Thanks guys for all your inputs.

The disaster is finally over. The tank is clear after 3 days of running. But the causalties are great.

KIA List

1) Yellow Tang x 1

2) Cleaner Shrimp x 5

3) Damsel x 2

4) Clown Fish x 1

5) Turbo snail x 1

6) Sand shifter starfish x 1

7) Finger Leather x 1

Survival list

1) Blue Tang x 1

2) Clown fish x 2

3) Hermit crab x 3

Sickbay

1) Hammer head - partially reclining

2) Mushies x 2

3) Sun Coral - emergency ward...on life support liao...

One thing I learnt though. The cleaner shrimp are very sensitive. They are the 1st to go when the tank got problems. Too bad I couldn't understand the symptons and react quick enough to save the rest.

Now, I will try to maintain the rest of the fish / corals by improving the water quality and add small dose of iodine to help the recovery.

Still... I dunno how it occurs. I know the like what Fuel is saying. The Dinoflagellates is a bacteria bloom and it basically overcome the tank by consuming the oxygen. But I didn't know exactly how it got started. I clean my coral chips monthly and never did this happen b4 and only this time is I never put it back. But I am not willing to try it again.... my karma can't take this.

[Gouldian]

From what I have read Poly Filter will trun red when it absorbs Iron.

Thus you may want to check whether there is a leach on Iron into your tank.

Poly Filter Turns Red