DSB or BB?

[Anemone]

hi all,

Since my new tank is soming next week, i was debating whether to go for DSB again or BB this time round.

anyone can gimme a few pointers?

i'll have a 2/1/2 feet sump this time round tho. so got more space to play with. with still be using my weipro skimmer til next month b4 i upgrade a bit.

lightings will be 3X39W T5s and 2X25W FLs.

and a single Seio pump in the tank.

i think thats about it for my equipment.

jon.

[madmac]

One of the best things about going BB is that you can maintain full control of your tank... easily. You decide how nutrient rich or poor it'll will get.

If you're in no hurry, do have your rocks cooked... it'll turn out for the best later.

I'm using a weipro too. I have the overflow output to a small pail and the input to the skimmer from that pail... the weipro is tuned wet, so it picks up whatever's goes in the pail... a little water flows out over the pail.

You may jus want to increase your in-tank flow... read it as pls do... and periodically syphon out the detritus manually...keep your rocks standing on pointed ends as you'll want the bottom swept by the currents to a point.

Don't clutter the floor area of your tank... you can, i jus don't think its a good idea for the beginning.

I think its AndySho and PlanetG that uses acrylic as a base for the tank...while many here jus go plain ###### glass.. the flooring gets covered by coraline algae after some time.

[Jimng]

DSB and BB.....both have their pros and cons.....

You may want to consider having DSB on a remote sump and having BB or SSB in the main display tank.......easier for reverting to any method if you change your mind anytime....

[CKS]

ive read that DSB needs a footprint size of atleast 50g tank to be effective

AND it has to be in the main tank, not remote sump/refug

also u cannot have hermit/starfish/blenny..etc that would reduce your faunas population too much to be an effective DSB

[Jimng]

Definitely, bigger footprint, the better (if can afford the space), but the point on it having to be in the main tank, quite debatable.....

[CKS]

Definitely, bigger footprint, the better (if can afford the space), but the point on it having to be in the main tank, quite debatable.....

my bad..the minimum footprint should be 30g.

hope we dont have to debate all over again..

maybe bro Anemone can read up more on google..heh

[dreamzcape]

Bro Anemone hope you don't mind if I share this thread with you.

I too am going to setup a new tank (downgraded from 2ft to 1.5ft then wanna go back to 2ft again). I am also considering whether to go BB or DSB....read through a lot of the old articles with the endless debates, eyes nearly popped out.

My heart is quite set on an in between system...sand for weight distribution only and not so much DSB effects so i'm thinking of a sandbed about 1 inch thick only. As for DSB what i've read is that you need 70% of the sandbed exposed but not sure.

Bro madmac i've read your thread old thread and also the other old threads, wealth of information. Would like a comment on my future plans which would be a 2x1x1.5 tank, running an aquamedic biostar flotor,1 inch sandbed(grade 1, don't want sandstorm).current wise i'm still torn between a 620 or 820, coz i really want to get the circulation going.

Main concern right now is if the 1 inch sand bed will have any implications

[dreamzcape]

oh i'd like to ask...is cooking absolutely necessary?

[Anemone]

tank's coming tomrrow. i think i'll be going with a DSB. cant really go wrong with that.

[dreamzcape]

anemone, there are 2 schools of thought lah basically =) i think both do work...it's just that i think, from what i've read, the DSB needs to have enough pods and worms to move the sand around...and usually over time, the pod population decreases which is why i think people do question the long term viability of DSB

[piglet]

esp if u are going for sps - look into BB tank - better control of the nutrients & water parameters etc.

read more about BB, u will understand.

[madmac]

dz,

clean rocks do wonders to your tank, weather its DSB or BB. If you can help it, then choose bigger rocks. I think its great to have a good start, takes about two months from my last tryout.

I think you could go either with a small tank, as maintenance shouldn't be difficult with smaller tanks. The real difficulty is with the stabilization of your water parameters, SG, pH, and temp comes right at the top. You must have known its easier to keep them stable with bigger vol. of water. So the challenges are very different. If its nutrient related, then water changes are the easiest.

I came across several nano tanks and most keepers feel a skimmer is a must...

At the end of the day, i'd say go with what fish or corals you want to keep... if its DSB, then know what a DSB does and whats required to maintain them, the same with SSB or BB. For me simplicity is key... saltwater aquaria is complicated enough...

best to you.

[dreamzcape]

thanks madmac for your reply,

I agree with your idea that whether it's BB or DSB, the idea is just to know how it works and keep the maintenance up. piglet brought up the point that BB offers more control over the nutrients and I suppose it's due to the maintenance procedure of siphoning detritus from the tank bottom, coupled with a powerful skimmer thus really controlling the DOC.

Just would like an opinion if I use mabbe grade 1 or 2 sand with about 0.5 to 1 inch just for aesthetic and weight distribution purposes, would i get a sandstorm?

Also, places like CoralFarm have cured liverocks specially for sale purposes, are they considered cooked? Coz they're like constantly sprayed and sort of drip cleansed. Coz although it's a little expensive, I don't mind forking out abit more for cleaner rocks and seeding my tank for coralline.

thanks for replies and opinions

[madmac]

There this Paul_B(in RC) who uses an undergravel filter very successfully. If ever I go with substrate, I'll use those. I think you'll need the grain size to be some thing the size of half-a-grain-of-rice, otherwise it'll float(bounce at some areas). The concept would allow detritus to be blown out of the substrate, while your flow and skimmer takes them out. You'll still get some trappings here and there... I don't think it'll be serious.

I jus prefer if you cook them, if you go full two months, no algae lives, incl. coraline algae... everything turns almost white. Coraline algae grows extremely fast... I find them a real pest actually, so no love lost in seeing them go. Some pods/amphipods will still live thru the process. Remember when cooking, no light whatsoever. If you want to speed up the process, start by not circulating the sea-water for the first two days, cover the container... but be prepared when opening... ... nothing lives by that time, worms, pods, crabs, will either go surface and die there or sink at the bottom dead... change water and start your process.

[loster]

if uses the "fast method" to cook the rocks, how long will it takes?

[dreamzcape]

hmmmz interesting....thought undergravel has always been thought of as nitrate factory since if u connect to input, it sucks detritus to the substrate.

The only way i can think of is the other way which is to conncet pump outlet to the UGF so that instead of ###### detritus to the sand, it actually blows the detritus off the substrate

bro mac can maybe find the link and post? think will make an interesting article.

Also on a last note, this may seem abit dumb but just confirming, cook using saltwater right? coz u want everything else in the rock to die and let the bacteria live so the rock becomes solely bacteria driven?

[madmac]

if uses the "fast method" to cook the rocks, how long will it takes?

the idea is to drown the invertebrates, they come out to die, your pores becomes cleaner sooner; rather than let them starve and die within, decompose inside, and slowly clean the rocks over the period, But the algae is still there and thats what you want off. So stop when you see no algae and no more shedding.

dz, yup, reverse UGF. Do a search in RC, for Paul_B, his tank is older than most of us.

[zephyros]

I always prefer a sandbed tank, as compare to BB.

But rather than going for DSB, you might just go for 2-3 inch of SB.

SB will add bio-divisity to your tank, and adds viewing pleasure,

with all the snails, starfish, cuke, and some worms

or some sand related fish such as blenny/shrimp, jawfish etc

though once in a while u'll have to fight the diatom/cyno problem,

but if maintain properly, it isnt much a problem at all

cheers

[dreamzcape]

Long post....read and comment!

ok thanks mac for the reference,shall go and read up on it...it actually does seem like a pretty good idea, not to mention it provides a unique circulation to the tank. But at the same time i analysed another problem would be if detritus were to get stuck in the UGF via the pump, it would still build up and cause a nitrate problem unless a mechanical filter is installed at the pump inlet(or outlet also can) to prefilter before going into the UGF. Was looking at your tank pics this morning, good stuff there and kudos to you.

Also, would like to ask an opinion if I should use my main tank to cook assuming i do go BB. Had an idea this morning for the following steps:

1)Buy rock,put in tank of saltwater,arrange scaping first

2)Run skimmer and powerhead for circulation and cover up tank sides and top

3)Cover for 2-3 days but also check SG to make sure it doesn't swing extremely or doesn't swing at all.

4)After that period, remove die offs and shedded rock material through siphon,and use the SAME tank water to continue the cooking since it's loaded with nutrients needed to fuel the bacterial growth

5)Wait for parameters to stabilize, also do daily testing

I think what varies from the steps that i read in can't remember whose article(i think yours?) is that I cook them in the tank rather than keep changing water to wash the rocks(since water have the nutrients why not use it?)

Instead of scaping first, also can actually swish the rocks in the tank and once again siphon out whatever detritus is stuck in the rocks that got flushed out.

Then comes a question of when we add new LR with like corals on them, if we don't subject to cooking then surely some will introduce algae into the tank but if cook liao then the coral dies. Any way to get the nutrients and algae to leech out without killing the coral?

zephyros, i think in order for a SSB to work, still need to have enough current to lift the detritus off the sandbed and that usually involves more powerheads(more heat) and also the likelihood of sandstorming. I agree too with the biodiversity but i guess what our local community lacks is Sandbed recharging kits, which i guess is what is required in order to make sandbeds viable for natural filtration.

[iantoh]

hi dreamzcape,

just my two cents.

i dont think using the same water within your display tank to cook your rocks for the entire cooking period is advisable. cooking involves sitting the rocks in a dark, but oxygenated body of water, to kill off all the photosynthetic life, thereby converting the algal-driven phosphate breaking down process into a bacteria driven process- by this meaning that instead of allowing algaes to utilize and store phosphates within their tissue, to force bacteria to process the phosphates instead.

inorder to do this, youll need to do a complete water change for the tub or tank in which your rocks are cooking in, at least once a wk. the rationale behind this is to remove all the detritus and dissolved nutrients and organics so that there is as little food as possible in the water column for the bacteria to feed on. this then forces the bacteria, inorder to survive, to feed on the nutrients and organics stored within the liverock, thereby purging your rocks of these nutrients and phosphates, etc.

if you use water which has plenty of nutrients to feed the rocks, the bacteria wont be forced to process the stuff trapped inside the rocks as nutrients from the water column is far easier to obtain, then the cooking process will likely yield no greater dividends than the normal curing process.

on a sidenote, my new tank should be finished either tonight or tomm, so i'll be setting it up soon, and i'm really caught in two minds as to whether to go BB or have a SB. the problem is the waiting period. i dont mind so much having to wait, but i'm afraid that my corals in the holding tank might not be too happy at suboptimal conditions for a cooking time of like 2months.

and i just realised the sand i used in my old tank was highly comprised of quartz and silicates, so that was probably the source of diatom growth, so i'm really quite tempted to go SB again but this time with proper aragonite coral sand.

has anyone gone BB without cooking before? could you pls share with us your experience?

cheers,

ian

[weileong]

When I went BB and w/o cooking, no problems at all. However I do noticed that the rocks shred a lot in the first few weeks.

For my case, my rocks are quite clean to begin with.

IMO having a SSB is worst than a DSB or BB as can't keep it clean nor do you have the advantage of DSB to process some of your nutrients.

[dreamzcape]

Always luv discussion and analytic threads can gain so much insight!

Thanks ian for sharing, i guess it was a lack of knowledge on my part and also thanks for taking the time to reply!

I guess I wrote what I did coz i was driven by the idea that once algae has no light for photosynthesis to occur, then it basically just dies.

Did not really think about the phosphates in the water even though there's no algae part coz i guess if u introduce a rock with abit of algae spores, the leeched phosphates from the cooking process will definitely cause some problems i guess. I see the rationale in the water change now.

So at the same time while u remove phosphates and nutrients, the rock is slowly becoming more bacteria driven than algae driven right?

weileong maybe can share some setup procedures u follow? it's interesting to know that u never cooked but you have no problems and i'm glad it worked for you. Not trying to insult or anything but maybe your rocks did leech phosphates but running rowa may have cleared it and suppressed the algae? Hope to learn something from your setup and tank procedures weileong!

[dreamzcape]

oh btw madmac do u run rowaphos?

[weileong]

My system runs under zeovit and this is already bacterial driven based system. I do not run rowaphos at all.

Before I went BB, I already been running zeovit for 9 months and most of the nutrients in the rocks has been removed.

What is left is nutrients leaching out from the DSB. Once the DSB was removed, the nutrients level just head south. There were a few reefers that went BB recently and all seeing better results than the days they were with the DSB.

[dreamzcape]

thanks for sharing!