LFF Got Raided

[Gouldian]

Hmm..this has attracted alot of comments.

One thing for sure, all postings from all angles are not intended to be self-righteous one way or the other but merely to put forth ones' opinion.  It is through discussions like these that will help advance us from 3rd World standards to 1st World ain't it

We need to give due considerations to the environment we all live in, just as we are responsible to nature and nature to us.

Not many shops and farms have Scientist Certification for corals, perhaps we should list them down (the ones with certs) so that we can all make a more informed choice when buying.  This will invariably help the LFF/LFS w/o certification get certification in due course.

Just as Chris puts it - Singapore Reef Club is all about responsible reefing ain't it?  I am pretty sure all in here will chip in and do their bit.  Let not all the empty vessels makes the most noise (perhaps they are associated or received varied interests), but Carribean music...

Very soon, SPS and LPS may not be available in Singapore (it may become a ban thing)...so whoever has good propagation skills we will all need your help to frag and farm.  So stock em all up

Hi Melvin,

I fully agree with you that we should not condone or support illegal corals trading. And I believe your intention of posting this thread is not to riddicule the LFF but as a resposible reefer.

What I dun quite agree is the subsequent calls for the naming of the LFF just to satisfy some people's curiousity.

The newspaper already clearly states the person involved, why must we link the name to a LFF or a face?

I agree with some bros here, when we constantly demands for lower price corals, we are causing the LFF or LFS to looking for cheaper source. So aren't we partially responsible too.

Why don't we start with ourselves first?

My humble 2 cents.

[blueheaven]

All in all, captive propagation is still the best.

You save the reefs and you get smaller sized corals for a smaller price.

Who wants huge corals anyway?

[Dispar_Anthias]

Hmm..this has attracted alot of comments.

One thing for sure, all postings from all angles are not intended to be self-righteous one way or the other but merely to put forth ones' opinion.  It is through discussions like these that will help advance us from 3rd World standards to 1st World ain't it

We need to give due considerations to the environment we all live in, just as we are responsible to nature and nature to us.

Not many shops and farms have Scientist Certification for corals, perhaps we should list them down (the ones with certs) so that we can all make a more informed choice when buying.  This will invariably help the LFF/LFS w/o certification get certification in due course.

Just as Chris puts it - Singapore Reef Club is all about responsible reefing ain't it?  I am pretty sure all in here will chip in and do their bit.  Let not all the empty vessels makes the most noise (perhaps they are associated or received varied interests), but Carribean music...

Very soon, SPS and LPS may not be available in Singapore (it may become a ban thing)...so whoever has good propagation skills we will all need your help to frag and farm.  So stock em all up

Bro first of all... its cites cert, not scientist cert as you mentioned ....

Hmm... Yes, we have to be concerned for and be responsible for the nature... If everyone who posted here talks abt conserving for the environment, I have nothing to say(of course from the dsicussion, i know bro gouldian, bro melvyn and bro chris really talks abt the conservation and protection of the environemnt and also things regarding this topic ) .... but there are just some shabby characrter(with planktonic(not that i condem new poster) coming out of nowhere and their first few post is to add fuel to the fire regarding this topic.

Also, the truth is, it is not that difficult to get the cites permit... Its just the long wait for issuing the cert and the hassle(and also due to the cost) that cause alot of lfs to bring in non- cites corals.

Ok now to the pt of listing all the lfs with cites down...

Firstly how do we know that which lfs bring in cites coral and which do not...(the owner tell you? or you make an effort to check the cert everytime you buy coral from a lfs?)

Also some so call "clean" shop that we think would bring cities corals may also bring in non cities coral.. Like it say applying and getting cities permit is a long hassle and process so some lfs may bring in a non-cities batch of coral shipment be4 the actual shipment of cites coral arrive(just to keep business going, and prevent shop from going to "dry", something we reefer hate when we go lfs cheonging)... Like wise, those shop that we think that they may not posses the cities certification may just be bringing cities corals all the time.

Lastly stating out that exact shop name for those who possess cites and those who do not posses cities may IMO bring alot of trouble to us(indirectly) and the shop

All this are my 2 cents and also like you guys i condone such action but the fact is, we cannot stop such activities....

[Gouldian]

Just did a check in www.cites.org, apparently most corals are classified under Appendix II, herewith is the excerpts:

Appendix-II specimens

An export permit or re-export certificate issued by the Management Authority of the State of export or re-export is required.

An export permit may be issued only if the specimen was legally obtained and if the export will not be detrimental to the survival of the species.

A re-export certificate may be issued only if the specimen was imported in accordance with the Convention.

In the case of a live animal or plant, it must be prepared and shipped to minimize any risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment.

No import permit is needed unless required by national law.

In the case of specimens introduced from the sea, a certificate has to be issued by the Management Authority of the State into which the specimens are being brought, for species listed in Appendix I or II. For further information, see the text of the Convention, Article III, paragraph 5 and Article IV, paragraph 6.

Thus, most will agree that it is not feasible for LFS/LFF to display certs as 1 certs does not signify or guarantee that the subsequent shipment brought in by the said LFS/LFF are legal.

[blueheaven]

....we can only lower it

I have also known of some shops which blatantly bring in illegal corals for sale. I tried to persuade them to stop but (probably think I am a small beginner kid) they said that it was the only way to get cheap stocks and would never consider getting the CITIES cert.

Geesh

[Dispar_Anthias]

....we can only lower it

I have also known of some shops which blatantly bring in illegal corals for sale. I tried to persuade them to stop but (probably think I am a small beginner kid) they said that it was the only way to get cheap stocks and would never consider getting the CITIES cert.

Geesh

You cannot stop them.. gheez its their rice bowl... Only through creating awareness among ppl to stop buying such coral(non- cites) will den the inlfux of non- cities shipment stop(hmm maybe reduce but not stop)....

Oh ya, and its the mentality.. the typical singaporean mentality to go for anything that is cheap.... Hmm a maxima for $80 and a maxima for $40 which one you take, most ppl will go for the $40 one(maybe you too without knwing that the clam comes without a cites permit)

In america, they do not have so much problem with "cheong" shipment... American go for aqua cultured goods(they believe aqua culutred corals come with less pest and diseases compared to wild ones also thats why you see most american corals are usually the same where else we singaporean have funny corals in our tanks) and they are willing to pay premium so naturally most of the corals that go there are cites permit....

[blueheaven]

Haha so come back the fault still lies in the reefer himself

It's a pity we lack large aquaculture facilities here

[Melvyn Tan]

Bro first of all... its cites cert, not scientist cert as you mentioned ....

If i don't remember wrongly, the CITES Certification needs a Scientist Endorsement (a verification) - therefore i know it as Scientist Certificate. Forgive me if i am wrong

Anyway, from all the discussion we can see where all these are heading into - no end, we can talk till the cow come home and there will be supporters who will fight hard to defend their stand.

Come what may - better to look for fraggers and farmers cause they will be high in demand.

BH - you chaeto farmer eh... when upgrade to sps farmer ? let me know k?

[Dispar_Anthias]

Haha so come back the fault still lies in the reefer himself

It's a pity we lack large aquaculture facilities here

Bro gouldian say be4.. in terms of aqua cultured for fishes(for consumption) we have huge facilities and we focus alot in that area..We are one of the world major ornamental fish player but sadly we do not focus in aquaculturing(for corals and ornamental fishes) that much yet...

Also we not in "ang mo" era yet, they are willing to invest on aqua culturing and they have the patience.. We chinese dun have the patience and most of us(especially the elderly ones) do not believe in such things...

America, you see so many of them doing the conservation thigny but us chinese, we buy funny creatures, we eat and use endangered animals products like sea horse, turtle, tiger skin.. so conservation in our race still got alot of space for improvement...

Again my 2cents worth DA

[Gouldian]

If i don't remember wrongly, the CITES Certification needs a Scientist Endorsement (a verification) - therefore i know it as Scientist Certificate. Forgive me if i am wrong

Anyway, from all the discussion we can see where all these are heading into - no end, we can talk till the cow come home and there will be supporters who will fight hard to defend their stand.

Come what may - better to look for fraggers and farmers cause they will be high in demand.

BH - you chaeto farmer eh... when upgrade to sps farmer ? let me know k?

Bro Melvin,

No offense, but seems like you taking it too personal leh?

When you posted in the forum, do you expect people to says things you want to hear? No right?

At first you mention:

"Hmm..this has attracted alot of comments."

Now you replied:

"Anyway, from all the discussion we can see where all these are heading into - no end, we can talk till the cow come home and there will be supporters who will fight hard to defend their stand."

I apologize if I have made you look or feel bad.

[blueheaven]

But if the coral comes in good condition, and reefers here are good and dedicated, all these problems might not appear

That's why we have SRC in the first place right?

[Dispar_Anthias]

If i don't remember wrongly, the CITES Certification needs a Scientist Endorsement (a verification) - therefore i know it as Scientist Certificate. Forgive me if i am wrong

Anyway, from all the discussion we can see where all these are heading into - no end, we can talk till the cow come home and there will be supporters who will fight hard to defend their stand.

Come what may - better to look for fraggers and farmers cause they will be high in demand.

BH - you chaeto farmer eh... when upgrade to sps farmer ? let me know k?

yeah... thats whats so good abt discussion.. No end... But i hope the no end discussion comes from reefers that come with good intention not from funny characters tat appear no where

Eh fragger and farmers are in high demand now.... in fact farms that are aquaculturing clams could not meet the demand for clams in the market

[Melvyn Tan]

Bro Melvin,

No offense, but seems like you taking it too personal leh?

When you posted in the forum, do you expect people to says things you want to hear? No right?

At first you mention:

"Hmm..this has attracted alot of comments."

Now you replied:

"Anyway, from all the discussion we can see where all these are heading into - no end, we can talk till the cow come home and there will be supporters who will fight hard to defend their stand."

I apologize if I have made you look or feel bad.

Alamak Bro, not pointing at anyone - so many post popping out therefore i generalised a statement that everyone will have their belief and stand and will defend these - so nothing of that sort in having bad feelings ot things like that...

Hey we better have coffee and talk face to face, over the internet can always have wrong communication...hows the kid anyway?

[blueheaven]

yeah... thats whats so good abt discussion.. No end... But i hope the no end discussion comes from reefers that come with good intention not from funny characters tat appear no where

Eh fragger and farmers are in high demand now.... in fact farms that are aquaculturing clams could not meet the demand for clams in the market

Well, anything can happen during a 6 month break

Who knows, I might even open a farm for market gardening of chaeto

Anyway, I sometimes wonder why we have farms since they don't really grow anything. To me, LFFs are just overblown retail shops

[weileong]

haha..... we still not yet lim kopi at SL yet ah

Like I always said, chat over internet too dangerous and too many times miscomm and end up so much problem, so better just take those comments with a pinch of salt. I've at mant times guilty of that too.

[Dispar_Anthias]

But if the coral comes in good condition, and reefers here are good and dedicated, all these problems might not appear

That's why we have SRC in the first place right?

bro you replying to who? No quoting from you

If its me den I have to say.... if all corals survive every shipment den lfs no business liao

Anway also regarding the corals arriving good condition... That have to go to the collection of the corals and every single process be4 the coral reach the lfs as every single detail no done properly may cause the coral to suffer or DOA... Also no just non cities coral are badly pack.. I have seen cites coral shipment wipe out due to bad handling or packing... in fact some non cites corals arrive in better condition compared to the cites coral liek i say all goes to the supplier...

[Dispar_Anthias]

Well, anything can happen during a 6 month break

Who knows, I might even open a farm for market gardening of chaeto

Anyway, I sometimes wonder why we have farms since they don't really grow anything. To me, LFFs are just overblown retail shops

Yes.. they were nv farms in the first place... basically they are called "farms" because they are located near FW fish "farm" and also have a bigger shop area than usual lfs and lastly they are not located in the central/town area

[Melvyn Tan]

haha..... we still not yet lim kopi at SL yet ah

Like I always said, chat over internet too dangerous and too many times miscomm and end up so much problem, so better just take those comments with a pinch of salt. I've at mant times guilty of that too.

Yeah hor you still remember over our silly incident !!! we should do coffee one of these days k?

[Melvyn Tan]

Gotta go play Lego farm set with my daughter...see you guys around - for coffee

[weileong]

Yeah hor you still remember over our silly incident !!! we should do coffee one of these days k?

Aiya that day you see me at SL you just keep quiet and sit there smile smile only.

Another time lar lol.

Sometimes you come to think about those silly incident also quite funny right. Anyway what's over is over already and I guess we all learn from those incidents.

[blueheaven]

bro you replying to who? No quoting from you

If its me den I have to say.... if all corals survive every shipment den lfs no business liao

Anway also regarding the corals arriving good condition... That have to go to the collection of the corals and every single process be4 the coral reach the lfs as every single detail no done properly may cause the coral to suffer or DOA... Also no just non cities coral are badly pack.. I have seen cites coral shipment wipe out due to bad handling or packing... in fact some non cites corals arrive in better condition compared to the cites coral liek i say all goes to the supplier...

Haha not replying to anyone la. Just a thought that came up in my head

[Gouldian]

Alamak Bro, not pointing at anyone - so many post popping out therefore i generalised a statement that everyone will have their belief and stand and will defend these - so nothing of that sort in having bad feelings ot things like that...

Hey we better have coffee and talk face to face, over the internet can always have wrong communication...hows the kid anyway?

Hi Melvyn,

No harms done!

Maybe one day we can meet for coffee.

[Dispar_Anthias]

Haha not replying to anyone la. Just a thought that came up in my head

[Kelmen]

How would a buyer\reefer know the stock he getting is legal or not?

Got "chop" or "special sticker" on the coral or fish body?

If we assume cheap = illegal, then all LFS will sell same\standard price, but they will still bring in illegal stuff, more profit, as no need selling cheap.

So, unless you have to "bong chan" (buy from) LFSs that are "certified" only....

So, not much we can do. Unless we all STOP buying.

Just make sure you buy the stock and will take good care of it, who bother anything else?