LFF Got Raided

[limbssg]

since it is already on national papers, Why hide the news?

What is there to fear?

As reefers, if we know certain retailers regularly bring in large amount of corals that are not traded according to CITES regulations. We can chose not to buy from them. Illegal harvesting will damage coral reefs. We shld be part of the solution, but not part of the problem.

[andysho]

well , maybe there are ppl who dun mind buying

those unhealthy corals that are not packed in good condition

money too much ... wat to do

[chucky]

ai ya... actually those legal coral oso pack like tht one lah.... if dunt hape illegal coral where got so many coral to buy ???? another reason is illegal coral can earn more and we can oso buy it cheap mah.. actually is very common for lfs to bring in illegal stock... but sum time need to bring in legal one cause need to do show so that got give chance a bit

[ervine]

since it is already on national papers, Why hide the news?

What is there to fear?

yah loh... the cat already out of the bag leh...

[blueheaven]

I personally feel that this sort of activity very disturbing

This not only show how "cheap" some people can be to stoop so low for some cash. As much as we want to get relatively inexpensive corals, we must also look into the future of the hobby.

Just imagine if more of this smuggling activity goes on and deplete the reefs, how are we going to maintain our hobby? By captive propagation? By then, the pricing would jack up even more due to the high demand

Furthermore, most of these smugglers do not have proper packaging for the corals they bring in and the mortality rate is high. This is evident in wild SPS shipments where whole colonies are just packed in layers of plastic bags as compared to the aquacultured ones which are hung upside down to prevent the slime from killing the specimen

Reefers should and must avoid such retailers with their uncouth ways so as to prevent such incidents from happening again. Just imagine how long it takes to grow back another coral of the same size. Probably 10-20 years.

I therefore appeal to ALL reefers to stop purchasing from these people and also stop purchasing dyed corals. That small decrease in price does not guarantee quality and will definately not pay off in the future

[diabolus]

Give the guy a break.

Business POV - profits, the cheaper they can get, the better the profits. The cheaper they sell, the faster they recoup their cash. I wouldn't blame them for taking the risk. You guys might KPKB about all the ethics and social responsibilites. but to the businessmen, its all about keeping the business afloat and bringing bread home.

Consumers POV - Cheap corals, no matter how many ppl bitch about this issue, it only make up a micro percentage of the reefing fratenity in SGP. the rest(me included) will gladly buy a cheap coral without questioning its origin.

BH : you might not know how difficult it is to get cash since u r still skooling. i won't be surprised if you might find urself in similar circumstances in the future where u have to make ur own stand, survival of ur biz or ethics.

[blueheaven]

Yeah probably so but what is business without ethics?

So I do not need to care so much as long as cash flows in?

From my current maturity, I see it as a bad attitude rather than business strategy

[tineng]

Yeah probably so but what is business without ethics?

you be surprise....

[blueheaven]

Its a bad world out there, that's what my SS teacher is trying to bring to us

I understand

[Melvyn Tan]

Have to agree with BH to a certain extent on this one hope you will grow up to be even more righteous and upright

[ervine]

Yeah probably so but what is business without ethics?

I agree... but there are plenty out there who are shady in their dealings and the end user doesn't know...

[iantoh]

hi all- just my two cents...

i think that most of the stony corals found in many of the lfs in singapore are actually illegal. i mean, the cites treaty states that no stony corals (that is, having a calcerite skeleton including lps and sps) exceeding a 3 inch-square size may be imported without a special license (so these pieces of corals will need individual licenses), and yet we often find many corals that exceed this limitation. furthermore, my gf's father has a taxi driver friend who used to bring in corals illegally. for these people that illegally bring in corals, the only risk they incur for the first time they get caught is that the shipment is seized, so as it is, the legislation favours those willing to take the risk as smugglers could stand to earn lots of money whilst potentially only losing their shipment. from what i know, there are many native collectors in areas like bali, batam, the outlying indonesian islands near batam, etc, that sell each coral colony for $0.50 to $1, so theres lots of profits to be made. i really hope that more will be done to prevent this as it certainly isnt good for our hobby. i understand that all the lfs need to make a living, but if there were policies in place to ensure everyone does not violate the cites treaty, then though prices will rise, they will rise uniformly, and the lfs will all be able to still make a living. the problem is, now it doesnt favour lfs that are ethical because those selling illegal corals can sell cheaper and make more profits.

honestly, i wont welcome the increased prices this will bring, but it will also hae the added benefit of turning away irresponsible hobbyist who go back wk-in-wk-out to buy cheap corals and fish only for them to perish then buy some more. if we want people to view us and our hobby favourably, i think its important that we do our bit for the wild reefs. if not for wild reefs, we would not have any reef tanks to admire.

i'm not sure if you guys know this, and i'm not advertising for them, but coralfarm is the only MAC (marine aquarium council) accredited lfs in singapore (MAC is an international council of marine lff and lfs), that ensures every piece of coral is cites approved, and every fish is cyanide free and net caught. they might not have many rare corals, and their fish are damn expensive, but where we can, we can try supporting them too. some of their corals and fish are actually sold at quite competitive prices, like their true percula clowns that go for $12 each. sure, there are fish pairs that cost $300- $1000, like the white-cap clowns, and even a yellow tang costs $50+, but if we want to champion ethics, i think we should walk the talk too. high prices for fish and corals might better motivate us to make sure we take care of our livestocks too.

all the same, i hope the lfs that was fined manages to recover.

ian

[RAV-65]

Give the guy a break.

Business POV - profits, the cheaper they can get, the better the profits. The cheaper they sell, the faster they recoup their cash. I wouldn't blame them for taking the risk. You guys might KPKB about all the ethics and social responsibilites. but to the businessmen, its all about keeping the business afloat and bringing bread home.

Consumers POV - Cheap corals, no matter how many ppl bitch about this issue, it only make up a micro percentage of the reefing fratenity in SGP. the rest(me included) will gladly buy a cheap coral without questioning its origin.

Agreed!

Who wouldn't wan cheaper corals???

[Chris]

I have to diagree with diabolus and Rav,

Remember that this site was set up with the primary interest to promote RESPONSIBLE REEFING. By saying that this is acceptable cos businesses need profit and people want cheap coral and using that to justify irresponsible reef trading is against our purpose. It is not our duty here to help LFS make profit or even survive. If we find that certain LFS is acting against the mission of this site, it is our right to share this information with other members so that people are informed. Whether they still want to patronise the shop or not is another issue. If the guy wants to take a big risk in his business for the greed of a bigger profit, then be prepared to face bigger consequences when caught. Isn't this the same as trafficking any other product?

For example, in a car forum, if we discover a shop using illegal parts, we tell the others about it.

Furthermore, this issue is already in the papers and I do not know which LFS so I did not write this out of malice. Just to share my take on this issue.

[chucky]

I have to diagree with diabolus and Rav,

Remember that this site was set up with the primary interest to promote RESPONSIBLE REEFING. By saying that this is acceptable cos businesses need profit and people want cheap coral and using that to justify irresponsible reef trading is against our purpose. It is not our duty here to help LFS make profit or even survive. If we find that certain LFS is acting against the mission of this site, it is our right to share this information with other members so that people are informed. Whether they still want to patronise the shop or not is another issue. If the guy wants to take a big risk in his business for the greed of a bigger profit, then be prepared to face bigger consequences when caught. Isn't this the same as trafficking any other product?

For example, in a car forum, if we discover a shop using illegal parts, we tell the others about it.

Furthermore, this issue is already in the papers and I do not know which LFS so I did not write this out of malice. Just to share my take on this issue.

bro.. den if you discover that your reef inside got lots of coral that is illegal, what will u do???? will you donate to sentosa under water world?????

[flying carpet]

Guys I believe that everyone make mistakes and nobody is perfect. Some people learn things the hard way. Maybe this is a lesson for all lfs and lff.

As some bro said give the fella a break. They already kena 56k you think they won't have second or third thoughts of smuggling again?!

Dun say until won't spend a single cent there lah. As I say people make mistakes should give them a second chance.

Regards

[Gouldian]

Yes, smuggling corals is not right. But the LFS has paid the fine, lets not rub salt into the wounds.

I am also against the dealing of illegal goods too but honestly I sure all of us will have one point or another chewed on gums or watch VCDs brought in illegally not to talk about buying corals that we know that is too cheap to be "legal". But because they are cheap and the blood in not on us if the authorities catches up, we conveniently convinced ourselves that, "it is alright".

So lets not be overally righteous by condeming what is done. We should take this lesson to be selective and even pay slightly more for our LS rather than pestering for lower priced products that inadvertedly forces the LFS to bring in illegal stuffs.

Just my humble 2 cents.

[Chris]

Let's get this clear.

I am not aware of which LFS is involved and I have no intention to rub anysalt to anyone's wound. I have no responsibility to protect to to destroy the business of this LFS. I have not called for any hobbyist not to visit or patronise the LFS.

If people wants to talk about it, let them decide and not tell people not to KPKB.

What they have done is wrong and no amount of mitigating factors can justified that this is acceptable. We have young people here. Are we sending out the right message?

Yes, we should give the LFS a second chance. That is everyone to decide. But at least we must know the facts before we can decide whether we want to give it a chance or not! Not to ask people to shut their mouth and let ignorance be the giver of the second chance.

If I buy a piece of coral knowing it is from illegal sources, I know I will be responsible when caught! Caught or not caught, it is not alright.

Please don't be personal and ask me to donate my corals to underwater world.

I am not here to flame anyone or any LFS. Just want to voice my strong opinion on the matter.

[tineng]

Its a bad world out there, that's what my SS teacher is trying to bring to us

I understand

no la....its not a bad world out there......its just a matter of perpective....i have seens business man that continuously breaks the law, but basically a very good person who help out in community work (not just $$$, but a decent 2 nights every week working with the unfortunate).....the law he breaks....not having license to run tution centres, not paying tax....etc.....are deem by most to be minor

i'm not saying that breaking the law is good - but do give people a chance and don't condame a person for this kind of small mistake....

[neokn]

Yes, smuggling corals is not right. But the LFS has paid the fine, lets not rub salt into the wounds.

I am also against the dealing of illegal goods too but honestly I sure all of us will have one point or another chewed on gums or watch VCDs brought in illegally not to talk about buying corals that we know that is too cheap to be "legal". But because they are cheap and the blood in not on us if the authorities catches up, we conveniently convinced ourselves that, "it is alright".

So lets not be overally righteous by condeming what is done. We should take this lesson to be selective and even pay slightly more for our LS rather than pestering for lower priced products that inadvertedly forces the LFS to bring in illegal stuffs.

Just my humble 2 cents.

Spot on, bro.

CHris, chill it. I think alot of us will have to donate to Sentosa, it's not just you alone.

Approriate action and fine have been taken by AVA, so guyz stop bitching abt it and let the matter rest. ok.

Depand = supply.

Depand for fur/ tusk sculpture = illegal pouching

I had bought Chervon tang at $120/- before now if I tell you Chervon tang is sold at $60/- or $70/- would you buy it?

So to explain, we're the main culript.

[Gouldian]

Let's get this clear.

I am not aware of which LFS is involved and I have no intention to rub anysalt to anyone's wound.  I have no responsibility to protect to to destroy the business of this LFS.  I have not called for any hobbyist not to visit or patronise the LFS.

If people wants to talk about it, let them decide and not tell people not to KPKB.

What they have done is wrong and no amount of mitigating factors can justified that this is acceptable.  We have young people here.  Are we sending out the right message?

Yes, we should give the LFS a second chance.  That is everyone to decide.  But at least we must know the facts before we can decide whether we want to give it a chance or not!  Not to ask people to shut their mouth and let ignorance be the giver of the second chance.

If I buy a piece of coral knowing it is from illegal sources, I know I will be responsible when caught!  Caught or not caught, it is not alright.

Please don't be personal and ask me to donate my corals to underwater world.

I am not here to flame anyone or any LFS.  Just want to voice my strong opinion on the matter.

Hi Chris,

I have known you through SRC and have met and spoken with you once in ML. I know your values and respect them.

I wasn't directing at you when I commented.

In fact, the reasons of my posts in that I personally finds that some of us are getting a little too self righteous to the extend that we are quick to condemn rather than looking for a solution.

I do agree with the actions of exposing workshops that uses illegal parts, due to the followings:

1) Illegal parts are using sub standard materials trying to pass off as genuine

2) Illegal parts does not preforms to the spces of the genuine

3) Illegal parts may pose dangers to the vechicle owners and worse, to others as well

But I dun find the above compelling reasons in the illegal corals imports.

I may be wrong.

Cheers,

[Chris]

No probelm Gouldian. I sounded a little angry but is not directed at you.

I do not want to tell people to condemn the LFS. Yes, I will still pop into the shop to see but at least want to be aware of this case if I buy things there. At least, for me, knowing this will allow my to make the correct judgement whether I want to buy or not. I think it is ok to post the newspaper article to let people know what had happened, but I am against labelling or putting unfair judgement on the shop.

I am not supportive of people who condemn the LFS. I, personally, have not done that. I just want to say that the action is wrong and we must recognise that. I feel uncomfortable when people say that it is "acceptable" as they also need to make money or we have cheaper corals.

For me, I'll recognise that they have done wrong and have been dealt with. I agree that we should not condemn them for 1 wrong move.

[ah^siao]

no demand = no illegal corals

demand = more illegal corals

as a reefer. more people go for the illegal ones because of the price tag that comes with the coral.

price of coral with cities = 2 to 3 times the price of coral without cities

there are people with different views abt this issue. i believe as a responsible reefer u should go read up on how to care for the coral before buying. in this way the coral will be able to survive in your tank and it also means that u wouldn't have to spent another sum of money purchasing new corals.

don't flame me

[Melvyn Tan]

Hmm..this has attracted alot of comments.

One thing for sure, all postings from all angles are not intended to be self-righteous one way or the other but merely to put forth ones' opinion. It is through discussions like these that will help advance us from 3rd World standards to 1st World ain't it

We need to give due considerations to the environment we all live in, just as we are responsible to nature and nature to us.

Not many shops and farms have Scientist Certification for corals, perhaps we should list them down (the ones with certs) so that we can all make a more informed choice when buying. This will invariably help the LFF/LFS w/o certification get certification in due course.

Just as Chris puts it - Singapore Reef Club is all about responsible reefing ain't it? I am pretty sure all in here will chip in and do their bit. Let not all the empty vessels makes the most noise (perhaps they are associated or received varied interests), but Carribean music...

Very soon, SPS and LPS may not be available in Singapore (it may become a ban thing)...so whoever has good propagation skills we will all need your help to frag and farm. So stock em all up

[minsmarine]

well i just read the post and whether we should avoid buying from the illegal source shell we put our thinking hat first .

all of us are using computer to read compose do work with our computer. are all software we are installed on the pc we are using have proper licensing?

how about VCD DVD. its nothing to do wit environment but principle same.

just my though