Can acros survive without polyp extension?

[Eric]

hi guys,

Jut sharing some information and would like to find out if anyone have the same experiences.

After putting in a pair of beautiful flame angels, both started nipping my sps polyps during the day time causing all the sps esp. millis to stop having polyp extension in the day. Night time the polyps still come out but not as long as before.

Two strange things I observe from this for the past 1 month. 1) There is no impact on the sps growth and colours despite the loss of polyps extension during the day time and so far only the 1 frag did not survive the torture and stn. The rest of the colonies are ok. 2) The angels seems to be not bothering the staghorns.

Q: Can the sps survive without polyps extension?

Eric

[weileong]

You should ask if the SPS can survive the stress?

I got 1 millepora colony that had a bristleworm living in it. For one year no polyps extension and nothing happened to the colony, no growth, turn brown, couldn't color up.

Until Scarab pointed the polyps extension (which I didn't take note of) I look closely and after cutting the colony up, I removed the bristleworm and now it is coloring up and showing lots of growth.

So the question is whether you want just barely surviving SPS or thriving SPS.

[neokn]

Get rid of your flame angels. Else it'll be like what Weileong have experience.

[tineng]

acutally, i have a even weirder expereince....no poly extension, turned from brown to blue over 1/2 year.....then RTN.....

[Eric]

You should ask if the SPS can survive the stress?

I got 1 millepora colony that had a bristleworm living in it. For one year no polyps extension and nothing happened to the colony, no growth, turn brown, couldn't color up.

Until Scarab pointed the polyps extension (which I didn't take note of) I look closely and after cutting the colony up, I removed the bristleworm and now it is coloring up and showing lots of growth.

So the question is whether you want just barely surviving SPS or thriving SPS.

But the thing is no polyp extension but still growing and colours still maintain.......that' wat puzzled me. I expected STN within few days time from harressment but it did not and still growing. Very strange. Now back to the question, is it a must for sps to survive without polyp extension?

Can't trap the angels........no room to even put the trap box in. Unless use last resort, trip the power supply and suffocate them. Other LS might be sacrifices as well but I know the corals can take it. Found out from the last 4hrs power trip.

[iantoh]

hi there eric,

sad to hear your angels are harrassing your millis. you said the colonies seem to be doing fine though? perhaps take a few more days to see how it goes, and whether the angels' behaviour is just temporary or not.

i guess if you cant really catch the pair, then perhaps the only way to prevent the sps from getting too stressed and dying as a result is to quarantine it somehow. is the colony really big? perhaps can place in a large betta box container type thing at one side of your tank?

cheers,

ian

[jd_n]

Quarantining sps is not the same as fish. Firstly, havin sps in a quarantine tank. The tank need to match the condition of main tank and this condition is very difficult or almost impossible to obtain. As a result u r only puttin more stress on ur sps by doin so.

Betta box is strictly out of the question. Although water condition r the same but flow will be greatly reduce in the betta box. I nd not explain further.

[iantoh]

hi there jd_n,

the suggestion i made was in light of the sps colony being harrassed by the flame angels, that will in time likely cause the deterioration of the colony if no action is taken. i certainly wont be suggesting placement in quarantine if there were no issues with regards the present situation of the coral. furthermore, quarantining the colonies, with appropriate measures having been taken to ensure the water quality, flow and lighting conditions of the quarantine tank will exert no more stress on the colony than having brought it from the ocean or another tank in the first place. also, i'm sure bros here will know the necessary parameters required for holding their sps in another tank if they need to do so. several bros here also run grow out and secondary tanks to their main displays in which they often grow out fragments of their sps. i'm sure thats plenty evidence that sps may be moved from one tank to another.

likewise, there are large version "betta boxes" or fish holding boxes that would facilitate the placement of a small $8 60gallon powerhead that would provide adequate flow. certainly this wont look great or be a good long term solution, but i'm thinking this would be a preferred course of action rather than to allow the degradation of the colonies from too much attention from the angels. i'm sure bro eric is posting his queries here too because he wishes to keep both his flame angels and milleporas.

cheers,

ian

[patrick123]

It is sad to hear this. Angel fish or dwarf angel are a beauty in a reef tank, but it is always a big gamble when keeping them with your gem corals...

Unless you can afford to remove everything and catch them out in a blink of an eye, it is better to keep them in a separate FOWLR.

[jd_n]

hi there Iantoh,

Hmmm..... nt aware tat there r fella reefers here doin wat u mentioned. Must hav been the lost of touch after nt surfin src so recently but NPNT, mayb u wanna show me some pix of fella reefers here runnin 2 seperate sps tanks, one primary and one secondary.

Like i said, to set up another tank juz to hse one stress colony is "easier said than done".

Another tank has to be set up, water condition must match or almost match tat of the main tank. Then lightin, flow, chiller,.....etc and constant maintainin all parameters hav to be taken into consideration. Nt forgettin still got main tank to take care of.

Nxt is how long is the quarantine period? And the end results? = Millis recovered but kena again when place back into main tank coz the prob still lies with the 2 angels in the main tank.

Reefers here do nt hav the luxury of those overseas where they hav more free play with their time, spacious living area, extra $$ to set up special fraggin tank. And for a hobbist to set up another tank juz for fraggin, wats the intention? wat to do with the frags? FOC to others after all the efforts bein thrown in. I dun think so rite. .....sell them=commercial conflicts?

And mayb u hav missed wat Eric hav mentioned

"Can't trap the angels........no room to even put the trap box in".

There is hardly the best of both worlds. We hav cases of flame angels behavin for yrs but suddenly developed the fetish to nip sps. We even got tangs tat go nippin on clams. But of coz we hav till todate, success with angels in sps tank but we cannot be complacent. Who knws wat it will do tmw.

So havin angels in sps tank is like a gamble.

Behavin now doesnt mean it wun misbehave in future.

[blueheaven]

I do know of reefers who have dedicated propagation tanks too

My suggestion to these people is to provide the frags to farms and shops to avoid any unwanted trouble and also to spread the word about captive propagation to save reefs.

Now back to the topic. I recently read an article which a reefer wrote about coral polp extension. He had an idea that if corals do receive enough nutrition from the byproducts of zooxathellae photosynthesis in the day, they would generally not extend their polyps too much as it serves not much of purpose

He also suggested that since there is no source of nutrition from the sun at night, corals extend their polyps more so as to catch small animals or even bacteria for nutrition. So it seems like energy is really in high demand in corals though some species do extend polyps both day and night

Forgotten where I read this from but I'll try to source it out

[iantoh]

hi there jd_n,

i replied the post with the consideration that bro eric would like to do both- keep the angels, and the millis. hence, being unable to catch the flame angels, the only viable option that occured to me was to separate the millipora colony. certainly i am not trying to suggest that setting up a separate tank to house a single coral colony is either viable or even to be desired. but things do begin somewhere- and many reefers do embark on their first forays into the aquaculture or grow out of frags from such situations.

like i said previously, it is not entirely difficult for reefers experienced with the husbandry of sps to set up a separate tank where sps amenable parameters exist. or to pay more attention to their existing quarantine or perhaps alternative tanks to enable it to house an sps colony. many reefers who have more than one tank in their homes do keep them in separate loops so as to be able to prevent the transferance of diseases or the likelihood of one tank's imbalances or problems from affecting the next.

likewise, i doubt that the stress inflicted on an sps colony, of being removed from a display tank to another tank where similar parameters are maintained, will be any more damaging than the level of stress it will continue to face in the light of it being continually being picked upon by the angels. the colony can be acclimatised to a new tank, and possibly recover there, whereas leaving it to the mercy of the angels doesnt help anything right?

i mean, if your argument were to hold out, then we may as well not trade frags because the stress of movement between tanks would be insufferable for the corals, but the reality stands that frags and colonies moved from one's tank to another (as long as the tank is being maintained well for the husbandry of sps) do survive, and even thrive. its not so hard to imagine a six footer main display with MH lights, ca reactor, and beckett, and a secondary two footer with HO T5s and kalk and reefbuilder additions instead, both having ca levels at above 300ppm, and alk above 8dkh, with ph of above 8, being able to sustain sps corals. i'm not suggesting there wont be due stress to the millipora should it be shifted, but that doesnt mean that the possible stresses of being moved from one tank to another arent worth being borne.

the underlying issue is that angels do pick on all manner of corals, and that we all ought to consider our stocking of livestock more carefully, but thats not the concern here. i merely made a suggestion, in good spirit, to express what i thought might be a possible way to accomodate both the angels and millis- nothing more.

pls do understand that i only had to reply to explain my initial post because you replied to it suggesting that its both impractical and ill-informed, to which you even considered not worthy of further explaination- "I nd not explain further.", coupled with an emoticon of a frowning face. how did my post warrant such a reply?

ian

[jd_n]

hi there jd_n,

i replied the post with the consideration that bro eric would like to do both- keep the angels, and the millis. hence, being unable to catch the flame angels, the only viable option that occured to me was to separate the millipora colony. certainly i am not trying to suggest that setting up a separate tank to house a single coral colony is either viable or even to be desired. but things do begin somewhere- and many reefers do embark on their first forays into the aquaculture or grow out of frags from such situations.

like i said previously, it is not entirely difficult for reefers experienced with the husbandry of sps to set up a separate tank where sps amenable parameters exist. or to pay more attention to their existing quarantine or perhaps alternative tanks to enable it to house an sps colony. many reefers who have more than one tank in their homes do keep them in separate loops so as to be able to prevent the transferance of diseases or the likelihood of one tank's imbalances or problems from affecting the next.

likewise, i doubt that the stress inflicted on an sps colony, of being removed from a display tank to another tank where similar parameters are maintained, will be any more damaging than the level of stress it will continue to face in the light of it being continually being picked upon by the angels. the colony can be acclimatised to a new tank, and possibly recover there, whereas leaving it to the mercy of the angels doesnt help anything right?

i mean, if your argument were to hold out, then we may as well not trade frags because the stress of movement between tanks would be insufferable for the corals, but the reality stands that frags and colonies moved from one's tank to another (as long as the tank is being maintained well for the husbandry of sps) do survive, and even thrive. its not so hard to imagine a six footer main display with MH lights, ca reactor, and beckett, and a secondary two footer with HO T5s and kalk and reefbuilder additions instead, both having ca levels at above 300ppm, and alk above 8dkh, with ph of above 8, being able to sustain sps corals. i'm not suggesting there wont be due stress to the millipora should it be shifted, but that doesnt mean that the possible stresses of being moved from one tank to another arent worth being borne.

the underlying issue is that angels do pick on all manner of corals, and that we all ought to consider our stocking of livestock more carefully, but thats not the concern here. i merely made a suggestion, in good spirit, to express what i thought might be a possible way to accomodate both the angels and millis- nothing more.

pls do understand that i only had to reply to explain my initial post because you replied to it suggesting that its both impractical and ill-informed, to which you even considered not worthy of further explaination- "I nd not explain further.", coupled with an emoticon of a frowning face. how did my post warrant such a reply?

ian

I make it short and simple,.....kinda lazy nowdaes

1. Dun remember seein Eric mentionin he would like to hav the best of both world.

2. NPNT

3. As u mentioned, problem lies with the angels. So regardless of settin up another tank ornt. Main tank still has a problem.

4. Dun think 2 much, the initial post of "i nd nt explain further" was referin to stress factor on sps in betta box so tat i nd nt go further typin n explainin tat, due to reduced flow, lack of lite.........bla bla to make one understand (which is wat i m doin nw to make u understand). And as for the emotionicon, its suppose to be this but click too fast. Morever, i dun find anythin wrong with the initial one too.

If u felt somethin abt it, then all i can say is u need to broaden up bro.

[Eric]

I make it short and simple,.....kinda lazy nowdaes

1. Dun remember seein Eric mentionin he would like to hav the best of both world.

2. NPNT

3. As u mentioned, problem lies with the angels. So regardless of settin up another tank ornt. Main tank still has a problem.

4. Dun think 2 much, the initial post of "i nd nt explain further" was referin to stress factor on sps in betta box so tat i nd nt go further typin n explainin tat, due to reduced flow, lack of lite.........bla bla to make one understand (which is wat i m doin nw to make u understand). And as for the emotionicon, its suppose to be this but click too fast. Morever, i dun find anythin wrong with the initial one too.

If u felt somethin abt it, then all i can say is u need to broaden up bro.

Sorry guys for all the commotion caused becos of my problems. So far the colonies and frags are still doing fine except no extension in the day time. Night time everything is normal. And there is still noticable growth on it.

I have temporary found a third solution. I'm trying out feeding the angels with flakes more often but in small quantities. By keeping the angels full, I notice they tend not to aim for the polyps so often. If this method can reduce the stress of the sps, maybe I'll just set up a auto feeder to minimise the problem. But will probably have to go double dosage on the rowa phos to reduce phosphate and tune the beckett for wet mode and ozone higher for nutrients export cause by the extra feedings. Will keep you guys updated on the progress.

Thx for all the ideas and feedbacks.................

Damn, I luv my angels.........

[damienkee]

how about NO3? will increase war...

[Eric]

how about NO3? will increase war...

No3 r taken care by the ozone and skimmer and live rocks and matured dsb.........so be no issue if feeding is in small quantities.

Eric

[damienkee]

i c...