Reef Maniac customer but...

[ACCK]

half a year back, i got a calcium reactor from joe himself.over the phone, i was assured that he will set up everythg for me. i told him i wont be setting up right away,but when i am, will let him know.he had no prob with that.

as some of u know, i gave up the hobby recently n tried to sell most of my eqpt.including the CR. i had a buyer who also needed someone to set up for him.being as clueless as i am with regds to setting up. i asked joe, can u set up for this buyer instead of me? he said no. i didnt quite understd why since he still 'owed' me the one time setting up service.was it e distance? i said we will reimburse u $50 for the cab fare. but his reason? he dont do setting up for resales.if everyone resells n asked him to set up,wont he be very busy?? i reminded him this is still the one- time service he offered,whats the diff?whats his loss?

apparently,he found it too troublesome to carry this out,so is leaning on the no resell and set up policy.

then these are his excuses.he said, remember, setting up for u is a FAVOR. in other words, i am not obligated to set up for u. i can decide if i want to set up or not. also, i sold at a discount to u,so no setting up needed.

of cos, these are things i am hearing for the first time now.had he made clear about his so called policy,i would have hesitated to get it from him then. and if i did buy, there will be nothing for me to complain about now.

to show him the unreasonableness of his stand, i gave this scenario. suppose i resold to my next door neighbor.will he set up for him? he still said no! (remember no travel needed) even claimed its standard industrial practice. yeah right!

i said ok if this is the case, lets not talk about the resales. now, i just want u to buy for me the CO2 and what not ,ie remaing eqpt needed, n then set up at my place. he said ok! how funny is that, u ask yourself.

in the first instance,if he had agreed to setting up for my buyer,he didnt even need to buy all e remaing eqpt.all that is required of him is to SET UP n he will be reimbursed $50. when he agreed to setting up at my place only, not only did he have to go n buy all the remaing stuff,he wont be reimbursed a cent.

this is the price he quoted if he were to set up for my buyer,$80. he even made it clear,its just for setting up. u have to buy all the CO2 and what not yourself.

standard industrial practice? if i got sth from a certain shop n was promised of one- time help in setting up,it would be part of his service. even if that item is now at my uncle s place, i doubt the shop would dare to give these type of excuses.

talk about shabby service.btw, i did tell him,i will be posting my displeasure here,he said he will reply to that,he wasnt wrong.

u tell me.

[djviper]

well no comments... maybe he bad mood that day...

[Trigger99]

Seems like a very grey area. Sorry that things turn this sour.

Maybe he is really in a bad mood that day.

I am sure an amiable solution can be reached.

A happy customer will always generate more sales.

Try this, ask him to setup in your house.

Then remember the setup and duplicate in the new buyer house.

Sincerely hope all things will work out for you guys.

[Joe_P]

Seems like a very grey area. Sorry that things turn this sour.

Maybe he is really in a bad mood that day.

I am sure an amiable solution can be reached.

A happy customer will always generate more sales.

Try this, ask him to setup in your house.

Then remember the setup and duplicate in the new buyer house.

Sincerely hope all things will work out for you guys.

Hi Guys,

This is really indeed a grey area.

As far as possible, we have attempted our best to provide quality service to our customers. However due to limitation of resources, we do not provide setting up for resale RM items.

Regarding to the above incident, we apologize for our inability to extend installation setups for resale items.

All those who however possess or have purchased RM resale units can however contact us via telecommunications or PM and we would be more than glad to provide the necessary instructions to facilitate their setup.

We are also currently working on setting up procedures which would be made available on our coming website but for the moment, please contact me via PM or at 94896450 if you need any assistance.

Hoping for your understanding

[Marineman]

Regarding to the above incident, we apologize for our inability to extend installation setups for resale items.

All those who however possess or have purchased RM resale units can however contact us via telecommunications or PM and we would be more than glad to provide the necessary instructions to facilitate their setup.

If this is a business policy, I think you need to rethink about it seriously.

Afterall it is your product, your brand, more users, more goodwill, more business, more referals, add value as manufacture will always help out even on resale items etc. I think any manufacturer should assist and help out customers in situations like this, it gives your company a better name in customer service. You may want to charge for your such services and let the owners decide if they want it or not. Take a Toyota or Mercs, it's always a Toyota or Mercs, they will fix it for you, it doesn't matter who is the owner, first, second or third etc etc. Afterall they charge for their services, (you should) so that people will continue to buy your product. Otherwise who is going to buy something where the manufacturer does not fully support resale items?? That means "no resale value".

If your company is thinking of more new sales by not going all out to service your resale products, then I think it is shortsighted.

Anyway, I am giving my opinion and not meant to discredit your company in any way. Your company's policy is your prerogative but as an outsider, we can give comments which we think it is beneficial to all parties, the manufacturer and their customers.

In any businesses, Customers are King, sounds familiar?

[Joe_P]

Thanks Marineman for your valuable advise.

We will consider your suggestion.

[Dazza]

Well just a suggestion. Maybe u can charge a sml fee for servicing resale. How sml or big is up to u as long as its known upfront upon sale. Just my 2 cts worth.

[Joe_P]

Well just a suggestion. Maybe u can charge a sml fee for servicing resale. How sml or big is up to u as long as its known upfront upon sale. Just my 2 cts worth.

Thanks Dazza for your input.

If need be, will make neccesary adjustments to our operating procedures to serve you guys better.

Cheers

[alanseah]

it sound too crazy what why need to charge fees...

a company will only go recognise their product and not customer..

is it to say if the product has a warranty period and be4 the warranty finish i sell it off and the 2nd hand owner will have to pay for service and thus warranty void...

so who care how many owners own that very product before. If you still own that product for any service to be done. Do it, be it, it's 1st owner or 2nd and where that owner stay (provided in SG la).

[Marineman]

it sound too crazy what why need to charge fees...

a company will only go recognise their product and not customer..

is it to say if the product has a warranty period and be4 the warranty finish i sell it off and the 2nd hand owner will have to pay for service and thus warranty void...

so who care how many owners own that very product before. If you still own that product for any service to be done. Do it, be it, it's 1st owner or 2nd and where that owner stay (provided in SG la).

Agreed with you.

With regard to charging fees, if under warranty, defects if not through mishandling will be rectified by the manufacturer FOC. However the owner will have to pay for transportation costs if any, unless he brings it to the manufacturer's factory.

If not used at all and the warranty period had expired, then this depends on the goodwill of the manufacturer as they are no longer obligated to perform the service for free.

However it cannot be FOC after warranty period had expired. If customer is willing to pay, then manufacturer must fix it, no question about that.

In this particular case, I think the manufacturer should help out FOC out of goodwill rather than an obligation as it was purchased a while ago.

[alanseah]

well the owner will have to pay for transportation costs if any.. all depend on the term and condition of the warranty lor...

if the warranty cover on site.. then no charges should be make..

[ReDDeviLs]

most of my equipments from from RM and so far the service is good in my opinion,maybe something can work out better

[untouchables]

seriously lah... as customer we all want the best but i think the manufacturer will also have their constraint and policies.

to setup resale product is not an issue but will need to charge time and material. $50 for a setup is low if you consider time spent is going to be min 3 hours (include travel time). at the rate the products are being resold, i think the manufacturer needs to open a service centre instead of a factory.

this is not juz on marine product. i juz bought a resale flat recently and found the bathroom waterproofing to be leaking. i called the developer who was suppose to give warranty on it but their reply... it is to first owner only.

same goes to some cars but not all.

back to joe's case. perhaps he has his reason not to make this exception but that is his choice and is really not fair to criticize the manufacturer for something that you asked for later, esp when the terms are different. even if you deem it to be fair.

juz my 2 cents. im out of marine so less stress, more time so here i am being a kaypoh!

[ozy]

Well, correct me if I am wrong. But Joe provides this service as value add to his customer and he does has reasons to provide or withheld this additional service. If you buy a Koralin CR do you get the manufacture to install for you? Maybe we should start asking them to do installation.

I don't totally agree that the installation is free if it is covered under the warranty period. If the device were to change hand 3 or more times within the period, then should the manufacturer provide the installation free of charge? It is like you go to IKEA to buy a furniture and they deliver to your house and set it up for you. If you sell it away to another person, should IKEA send their guys to install it at the new house?

Manufacturing defects should be covered under warranty, that I agree and I don't think Joe would say otherwise. But this is not the issue here...

[neokn]

Wait a minute, does that mean that if my children next time get married and they move out. He/She is no longer my problem and any problem would be their own problem. Hmmmmm.........

I guess, Sony Ericsson don't need to service my wife's mobile as she bought it 2nd hand.

[neokn]

Wait a minute, does that mean that if my children next time get married and they move out. He/She is no longer my problem and any problem would be their own problem. Hmmmmm.........

I guess, Sony Ericsson don't need to service my wife's mobile as she bought it 2nd hand.

This is nothing personal neither is an attack on individual business.

[hotlemond]

eh....., the issue is for a set-up, not a repair.

[loster]

I don't totally agree that the installation is free if it is covered under the warranty period. If the device were to change hand 3 or more times within the period, then should the manufacturer provide the installation free of charge? It is like you go to IKEA to buy a furniture and they deliver to your house and set it up for you. If you sell it away to another person, should IKEA send their guys to install it at the new house?

Manufacturing defects should be covered under warranty, that I agree and I don't think Joe would say otherwise. But this is not the issue here...

i see your point and i am fully agree

Manufacturing defects should be covered under warranty but for installation??? i don't think it is fair to warranty the installation for the resale. and i believe IKEA will not do that too.

so, warranty for defect and installation is two different issue.

[neokn]

eh....., the issue is for a set-up, not a repair.

Am I right to classifiy Set-up as a form of Service? Or was it a form of "Favour"?

Repair of mobile is also another form of Service. So can I classifiy them together?

Ikea will charge for re-installation, YES. Pls don't forget that the installation charge was OFFERED and REJECTED. End of the day, manufacturer can't say that a resale product is no longer theirs or reject any service requested upoon.

[FuEl]

Manufacturers are mainly responsible for production and servicing. It is the retail joints that extend services like installation. As Joe builds the products himself, you can imagine how much time he would lose on other products if he was to set aside time to setup a resale product. Any businessman would put priority on future products while providing customer service only when deemed necessary. The price you get direct from the manufacturer would definitely be lower than that gotten from a retail outlet. As the profit margin of retail outlets will be higher, it is only justifiable that they provide installation and other follow-up services. The manufacturer on the other hand, would lose out if he was held responsible for setting up services. This is especially so if the time could be spent on R&D and meeting other customer deadlines.

[neokn]

Manufacturers are mainly responsible for production and servicing. It is the retail joints that extend services like installation. As Joe builds the products himself, you can imagine how much time he would lose on other products if he was to set aside time to setup a resale product. Any businessman would put priority on future products while providing customer service only when deemed necessary. The price you get direct from the manufacturer would definitely be lower than that gotten from a retail outlet. As the profit margin of retail outlets will be higher, it is only justifiable that they provide installation and other follow-up services. The manufacturer on the other hand, would lose out if he was held responsible for setting up services. This is especially so if the time could be spent on R&D and meeting other customer deadlines.

If that's the case, a "Sorry, I'm unable to help as I'm occupied meeting my deadline" will do.

It's bad to have a business build on I'm the manufacturer, retailer, service engineer and repair engineer. Which manufacturer will have time, don't have 48hrs per day leh. Since retailing have been outsource, more time can be spend on manufacturing, servicing and repairing. Until these day, I haven't read of much problem with the product. So I would assume that the product is perfect. Thus we're left with manufacturing and servicing. Not forgetting that this customer knows nuts abt your product and bought it off another reefer.

[keithtty]

As with all young businesses, there will always be areas that need to be ironed out, especially in areas of terms & conditions, sales & purchse agreement, warranty and after-sales services. Hack, even some very established businesses still have room for improvement.

Under normal circumstances, when someone buys a calcium reactor or skimmer, it does not come with a on-site set-up. I think this is a good value added service that differentiates getting a RM product as opposed to going to a shop. It is also due to this, that I can understand why ACCK feels upset. Perhaps the gap here is that the extended goodwill has become an expectation and obligation, especially since he has not set-up his unit yet. This should be clear at the point of sales, so future unhappiness is avoided.

IMHO, RM is not a shabby business. I have received pretty good service from Joe. I think this incident, while unfortunate, would be unfair if it destroys all the good work and effort put into the RM business so far.

[hotlemond]

Am I right to classifiy Set-up as a form of Service? Or was it a form of "Favour"?

Repair of mobile is also another form of Service. So can I classifiy them together?

Ikea will charge for re-installation, YES. Pls don't forget that the installation charge was OFFERED and REJECTED. End of the day, manufacturer can't say that a resale product is no longer theirs or reject any service requested upoon.

well, you are right about "set-up' as a form of service. However, its quite different from warranty repair service.

With warranty related, the supplier has to "honour" it as long as its within the warranty period. As for a set-up for a re-sale items, there's nothing bind to the sales agreement that it is "compolsary" for the supplier to perform the services.

As for the "offer and acceptance" of monetary compensation in this case, obviously i have no comment cos i am not Joe himself (no offence taken )

However, in this case alone, if the item wasn't set up at the first owner location but there was an agreement for a set up at future date, and is subsequently sold, then as the owner, I would appreciate the set up to be fulfilled.

But, however, bearing in mind that the agreement for the set up at later date may have been regarded by the supplier as only extended to the "first" owner's location. How and why such practices occurs solely lies in the individual supplier's nature of business and thier point of views. But this is just an assumption and does not qualified as a statement.

lets leave it to Joe to work it out.

[blueheaven]

Just to share my comments on this issue as a RM customer

I think before you start this thread, please give a thought for Joe himself. He is not an owner of a manufacturing company, or even mass produce his products.

Basically, it is more of a one man show or maybe he has some friends to help him. Like what he said, if all his customers were to call him to help setup or service the products, he would be running all over Singapore everyday.

Best he could do is to offer you the required help over the phone or guide you over a PM. I truely believe that Joe has a very valid reason not to help your friend personally but he would be agreeable to help out in any way he can.

And lastly, I believe that it is also your own responsibility to search and read up on how calcium reactors work as they mostly operate with similar functions. I have always believed in solving your own problems yourself and not to rely on others too much

[ACCK]

thanx everyone for their input,whether in my favor or against.

1)it is the ONE time service promised that i am seeking. in other words, if he had already set up ONCE for me, i have no right to ask for anythg for the next owner.even if joe wants to, i would dissuade him bec he would then be stretched unnecessarily. he is running a business and cant afford favors .

2)if i were not promised the one time setting up service, i seriously doubt that i would hv bought from him.so u can say i got it bec installatn is included. imagine u buying a car from this agent, he promised u freebies like cd player. when u go n collect e car, he says sorry no stock and what not, anyway its a gift so he is not obligated to give u. can huh??

3)i am fully aware of the effects on joes business when i decided to post. ask joe if i informed him in advance that i will be posting abt this.but at that point, he was so sure that he was in e right, and says he can reply to it.it would have been irresponsible for me to post first without having first trying to resolve with him. .no solution. what u expect me to do?

4)the only thing i am sorry about is this,like what was mentioned,its been half a year since i bought it. so the time period is a factor, i admit. like if i sell a product, n 5 years later, the customer return n hold me responsible for what i said 5 yrs ago, i also dont like it what.

but rather than brushing him aside, i would explain, ok what i promised ,if within my means,i will do.no spare parts, cant be helped. but u will not be my priority.once i have settled my current customers, i will attend to u.

5)this is funny, who of u must understand the workings of every pc of eqpt ,before u buy?or is it not true that only when we have the eqpt in our homes, we learn as we tinkle?

must i know what color or growth form each of my sps will take before i buy? must i know fragging before i go into sps?is there anything wrong abt learning along e way?of cos if u are talking abt learning the requirements of live animals i can undrstd.

be bck soon, yet to take dinner...