Coral For Sale

[Achilles Tang]

oops. ok.. trust Tanzy to set political leanings right!

So...out of curiosity... where do u stand with regards to this issue?

[DaY]

Just wondering why there still so much fuzz about it even though i have stop selling those corals over here. Is it because i am selling stuff cheaper then pacificbetta? i heard your shop sell one small package of sea lettuce for $2/-...

Hmm..wonder if your sea lettuce is Cities Cleared...( i think they are also harvest from the sea...and in large quantity too from what i see in the shop)

i doubt so.. as sea lettuce does not require cities..thus i dun think you have the right to critize me selling them ( sea lettuce ) too..

i starting to think that your intital argument of me selling corals without cities is more to because it is affecting your biz? hmm

[Tanzy]

oops. ok.. trust Tanzy to set political leanings right!

So...out of curiosity... where do u stand with regards to this issue?

On conservation

Human beings are arrogant, humanistic, egocentric parasites. They think that they are so big and powerful that they can actually affect the Earth. In reality we are insignificant and no matter what we do, Earth will be able to correct itself and maintain equilibrium. At the moment, I'm quite convinced that Earth is trying to kill us all like a very bad case of ich. All the pollution we do with the rainforest and coral reef damage are just going to result in us committing a form of slow genocide. Once the planet is rid of us, it will go merrily on it's way orbiting the sun.

Therefore, we must protect the environment for OUR own damn sake and not because of Earth. This piece of rock won't die before we do. Either we kill ourselves first or God will.

Protecting the environment doesn't mean stop exploiting it or the best way to protect it will be to kill us all, even those tofu eating greenies. In order for us to survive we need to parasite on to something. It's just the way things work. Preferably what we suck on to must be self-sustaining and self-regenerative. The marine hobby does less damage then a single storm on the reef. Blast fishing and land reclaimation kills more reef. We are often criminalised because we are very visible. I'm not talking about being the lesser evil here but being a controlled exploitation of the reef where it's growth exceeds that which we take.

On commercial sales

It's bad. It hurts the sponsors. SRC gets filled with leaches and becomes classified ads if not stopped. Not good for general forum environment. Profit hurts the forum ethos.

On sales of hard corals

It's illegal to sell hard corals even if it comes from your tank. Although I doubt you will actually be arrested and tried for doing so. I don't know where does SRC legally stand concerning people using it as a medium for selling these restricted items. I'm quite sure I can't put an ad in the ST Classified for M16A2, Used, one owner only.

On Day

PR doesn't sell corals of your quality. PR is of a different league from you altogether. Don't think you hurt their business at all.

[flubberina13]

On conservation

In reality we are insignificant and no matter what we do, Earth will be able to correct itself and maintain equilibrium. At the moment, I'm quite convinced that Earth is trying to kill us all like a very bad case of ich. All the pollution we do with the rainforest and coral reef damage are just going to result in us committing a form of slow genocide. Once the planet is rid of us, it will go merrily on it's way orbiting the sun.

Therefore, we must protect the environment for OUR own damn sake and not because of Earth. This piece of rock won't die before we do. Either we kill ourselves first or God will.

Well Said...

[flubberina13]

On commercial sales

It's bad. It hurts the sponsors. SRC gets filled with leaches and becomes classified ads if not stopped. Not good for general forum environment. Profit hurts the forum ethos.

There is such a thing called CONSCIENCE.

Reflect upon it.

[Achilles Tang]

On conservation

Human beings are arrogant, humanistic, egocentric parasites. They think that they are so big and powerful that they can actually affect the Earth. In reality we are insignificant and no matter what we do, Earth will be able to correct itself and maintain equilibrium. At the moment, I'm quite convinced that Earth is trying to kill us all like a very bad case of ich. All the pollution we do with the rainforest and coral reef damage are just going to result in us committing a form of slow genocide. Once the planet is rid of us, it will go merrily on it's way orbiting the sun.

Therefore, we must protect the environment for OUR own damn sake and not because of Earth. This piece of rock won't die before we do. Either we kill ourselves first or God will.

I classify you as a ultra-cynic then. Actually, yeah... that's what the theme of the Matrix is about. We humans are so arrogant that we actually destroying the earth for our own pleasures. Agree wholeheartedly with you on this!

On commercial sales

It's bad. It hurts the sponsors. SRC gets filled with leaches and becomes classified ads if not stopped. Not good for general forum environment. Profit hurts the forum ethos.

Just to clarify that you meant commercial sales from sponsors and permitted people only?

On sales of hard corals

It's illegal to sell hard corals even if it comes from your tank. Although I doubt you will actually be arrested and tried for doing so. I don't know where does SRC legally stand concerning people using it as a medium for selling these restricted items. I'm quite sure I can't put an ad in the ST Classified for M16A2, Used, one owner only.

Gee... CITIES only covers commercial trade between countries, not in-country sales and certainly not between private individuals like hobbyists! Sale of weaponry on the other hand, is regulated by the respective citizen's country laws. In Singapore... you'll be in jail faster than you can say: Char Kway Teow.... in gun-loving countries like the US, it's probably ok if you have the proper papers.

Corals are protected, not illegal. There's a difference like Marijuana is illegal, cigarettes are restricted/taxed/controlled.

[Tanzy]

Thanks for the correction, so onced passed the border, its OK?

Of course I mean sponsors are allowed, like I said, commercial sales from non sponsor members will hurt the sponsors. I don't think Dr Chill will appreciate another guy coming in and start hawking out chillers. Defeats the purpose of him sponsoring the board in the first place.

[Achilles Tang]

Roger that!

Don't confuse that with country regulations and laws... regulated by your favourite local wildlife control government dept called AVA

(Agri-food and Veterinary Authority).

CITIES is Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora.

[woonming]

Thanks for the correction, so onced passed the border, its OK?

Of course I mean sponsors are allowed, like I said, commercial sales from non sponsor members will hurt the sponsors. I don't think Dr Chill will appreciate another guy coming in and start hawking out chillers. Defeats the purpose of him sponsoring the board in the first place.

Very well said !

[Kojek]

Hi Folks

Heres my stand and I will answer it precisely.

I will buy livestock, if they are from a reliable source,in good health and if they are value for money.

My defination of reliable, is based on the following.

Trust worthiness.

Honesty and I mean down right honesty.

Last but not least service and the ability to communicate.

With regards to Cites, I do not check or ensure that the corals are from an authentic source.Because I do not expect "them" to show me their import documents and relevant Cites papers from the importing country.

On the contrary,If a LFS owner tells me that he would not mind showing me the true copies of his import documents, and answering any queries that I have.I would gladly support this cause.

If a LFS tells me that, and I quote " No treat to the Marine Ecosystem"....I will tell him to bugger off as I firmly believe that it has an impact.If not, these livestock would not fall into the Cites category in the first place.

Well, as for my conscience, I am guilty as charged.Because I enjoy having a small tank which mimics a fraction of the reefs.

In my finishing statement I would like to add that with Cites or non Cites , its makes no difference to me.This is solely because there is no actual form of verification.And we may buy Cites today and by non Cites tomorrow not knowingly or Knowingly.

IMO reputable stores evolve with time and circumstances.

"Being Singaporeans" (I guess most of us are), I hope we are able to make a difference by sharing and expressing our views openly.Your contribution is greatly appreciated.

Cheers and have a Beautiful day.

KOjek

[marinebetta]

HI Folks

2)IMO if you talk about the birth of the Cites document, the bottom line is that their main objective is to protect the species of Flora and Fauna.They are not trying to protect the species to ensure that there will be sufficient stock to go around in the commercial market for the years to come.

I'm sure you guys will tell me that this is "way off topic" as the discussion is purely about encouraging the purchase of Cites livestock.Now,lets get to the heart of the matter. Cites is intended to protect and control the diminishing species of flora and fauna.Whether we choose to purchase,steal,rob through either means,be it legally or illegally.Now our definiation of "legally" may vary with others,because personally I myself do not check,verify and audit every piece of coral with its scientific name,to ensure that this livestock are "Cites proven", before I make a purchase.Now isn't this the same as buying non Cites livestock ?

Kojek,

This is where you are wrong.

CITES was set up not to "protect and control", which in your definition is pretty much equal to preservation as opposed to conservation (which was defined earlier).

CITES was set up to regulate trade in fauna and flora, so that the contibution of trade to the extinction of species is minimized, and hopefully eliminated (can't do too much about the destruction of the environment - that's a bigger threat to extinction and a totally different ballgame altogether). So, in other words: they are "trying to protect the species to ensure that there will be sufficient stock to go around in the commercial market for the years to come" as well as enough of the species in the wild to propogate and not go extinct.

The Green movement is trying hard to use CITES as a tool to eliminate any trade at all, and this has been changing CITES a little such that it is very much political nowadays - trading of votes takes place in such conventions, believe it or not!

It's illegal to sell hard corals even if it comes from your tank. Although I doubt you will actually be arrested and tried for doing so.

For non-commercial sales, this is not true. It really only applies to those who are making a business of it (ie commercial) as you will need a fish shop licence endorsed for marine ornamentals to do so.

[Kojek]

Hi Pacific Betta

I believe the term "Protect and control" refers to guidlines,measures and protocols that are laid out by regulating bodies to ensure sustainable flora and fauna.

On a wider and broader scale,I don't think that Cites is "awarded" to livestock to ensure our generations to come can enjoy and sustain a livelihood through commercial haversting.It is because they have been classified as "Threatened or potentially Treatened".

With regards to the different angle of Grammer (Preservation/Conservation) being perceived.I would like to share in short, that both words do contain similarities which may vary with the structure of language used.

Cheers and thanks for sharing

KOjek

[Shark]

"Being Singaporeans" (I guess most of us are), I hope we are able to make a difference by sharing and expressing our views openly.Your contribution is greatly appreciated.

Cheers and have a Beautiful day.

KOjek

Sinagporean dun use "Cheers" it's only brits

so go with "bye lah"

[DaY]

Tanzy Posted on Sep 18 2003, 06:58 PM

On Day

PR doesn't sell corals of your quality. PR is of a different league from you altogether. Don't think you hurt their business at all.

that the whole point. if he dun target me now and try to stop me or other people from selling over here.

There no guarantee that someone else will comes up and sell SPS or even better quality corals etc over here. thus it will affect his biz..( i hear his biz is not that stable yet..)

it better to stop us now rather then try to stop in the future where it would even be harder...If he can stop us from posting or selling corals etc now. He would have a better reason to stop anyone from selling better sps etc in the future over here also.

And also i heard he is selling sea lettuce for $2/- a small packet. I guess in some way or another, i also selling sea lettuce. Thus it will definitely be a small lost of biz..even if like a few dollars or so as i selling a much bigger packet then him at a lower price.

shrugz..maybe he going to sell snails also..but i beat him to it?

[pospeh]

On commercial sales

It's bad. It hurts the sponsors. SRC gets filled with leaches and becomes classified ads if not stopped. Not good for general forum environment. Profit hurts the forum ethos.

One added note to those people who promised to buy from Day and felt that you could not back out due to standing behind your words.

I respect your integrity, but have you considered the Seller's integrity, and whether he deserves your integrity?

From day 1 there has been a clear policy here that no commerical posts are allowed here. Despite this, he has continued to make his sales pitch here, even after AT has told him to stop (go back and see page 7 here and the post above).

By posting the sales here, he violated that rule. Moreover, he may have given the impression that he was a breeder/amateur hobbiest, and not a commercial collector.

When a sale is made under these false pretenses, there is no valid agreement to sell.

Under the law, this is known as a mistake in fact, and this entitles you to cancel the deal.

Put it another way, if you see an ad in the paper telling you that an owner is selling his '99 Tercel with 50km on it, and the owner led you to believe that he is the owner of the car. It turns out only after agreeing to buy that car that you found out he is actually a used car dealer, not the original owner. Even if the car is exactly the same as he represented, you would be entitled to cancel the deal because the seller has misrepresented about himself.

[reefer guy]

day, chill bro, its ok... seems like one of his posts pointing to YOU makes it so obivious.... no need to point out same in retaliation, or are no better than anybody else.... just live and let live, revenge and retaliation never ends, so its wiser that this arguements stops from you........

[SeaMarine]

tis thread is getting longer.. dunno when wil stop

[Dispar_Anthias]

hey relax guys

[marinebetta]

Hi Pacific Betta

I believe the term "Protect and control" refers to guidlines,measures and protocols that are laid out by regulating bodies to ensure sustainable flora and fauna.

On a wider and broader scale,I don't think that Cites is "awarded" to livestock to ensure our generations to come can enjoy and sustain a livelihood through commercial haversting.

With regards to the different angle of Grammer (Preservation/Conservation) being perceived.I would like to share in short, that both words do contain similarities which may vary with the structure of language used.

Cheers and thanks for sharing

KOjek

Wrong species again

No, CITES permits are not awarded, they are issued by the country of origin's CITES scientific authority based on studies (at least that's the presumption) on the species' sustainability based on trade harvests. Quotas are set each year and these will vary from year to year based on the research that the scientific authority carries out. The aim is for the trade to be regulated so that the species can be sustainably harvested. The aim is not preservation (although each individual country may choose to do so by having a zero quota).

Once a species is listed on CITES at their convention every two years, member countries are required to abide by the protocols laid out ie. making sure that the proper permits accompany shipments of CITES listed species. The exporting country of origin is responsible for setting the quota and making sure that these quotas are not violated. In short, the country of origin is responsible for their own fauna/flora's harvesting. The rest of the countries just make sure that the permits are original and originate from the proper regulatory body of the country of export. The importing country really doesn't have an impact on the quota of the exporting country......

There is a difference, albeit a fine one and many people perceive that there is not, and this is what the animal activists exploit - turning words against their original meaning; making CITES their tool.

Consider CITES II listing - not all CITES II species are endangered. Suprised? Some are listed as they are look-alike species, or it may be easier to list the whole order (eg some parrot species; sclerectina; and I dare say...some species of the paradisae ...) On the other hand, some very endangered species are not listed. Why? Because the are not in the trade eg black necked storks.

Bottom line is that CITES is about trade.....at least that's the original purpose of CITES.....Now......it's political

Sorry for the long post, but there are some misconceptions that have to be pointed out....

[DaY]

pospeh Posted on Sep 18 2003, 10:38 PM

One added note to those people who promised to buy from Day and felt that you could not back out due to standing behind your words.

I respect your integrity, but have you considered the Seller's integrity, and whether he deserves your integrity?

From day 1 there has been a clear policy here that no commerical posts are allowed here. Despite this, he has continued to make his sales pitch here, even after AT has told him to stop (go back and see page 7 here and the post above).

if u have check with AT. You should have known that i stopped when he ask me to. guess you never check with him?...

I'm really okie if people want to cancel the order...i not stopping anyone who wish to cancel their order..If anyone who wish to cancel their order. They can just pm me. I will not stop them from cancelling or doubt their intergrity. On this, Pospeh, you need not worried about it.

[Kojek]

Hi MarineBetta

On a wider and broader scale,I don't think that Cites is "awarded" to livestock to ensure our generations to come can enjoy and sustain a livelihood through commercial haversting.

I would like to highlight that the above sentence is a "figure of speech" where "awarded" is used to represent something which is not.

I will end my thread as of today as I do agree with the rest that our discussion has gone a mile off the long winding road.

Inshort , I would like to say "to each his own". as most of us are not willing to share their views on the purchase of Cites/non Cites corals.

Cheers and have a good evening

KOjek

[Shark]

Day has already oblidged not to sell marine at such a scale as deemed to be commercial . .. .

Anyway any transcation be it a piece or two is also of commercial purpose so why the fuzz at Day and only Day ? Why would propagating and selling afew batches over months be not commercial .. . .

[kopee]

c'mon,let get on with life and share the hobby....

Smile.....

[Shark]

c'mon,let get on with life and share the hobby....

Smile.....

[bwilly]

your avatar damn scary..