Coral For Sale

[DaY]

bwilly Posted on Sep 15 2003, 10:54 PM

  I think AT is concern abt AVA hitting upon this forum.

Same as some IT zone, where selling P s/w is frown upon.

Actually selling of corals need special permit, or its $5000 fine a frag. 

erh?? then lidat all of us can be kenna fine?

even for selling own corals?

[kee]

how to contact you about the coral? how much is it can leave ur Hp no. thankx

[pacificbetta]

erh?? then lidat all of us can be kenna fine?

even for selling own corals?

There is a huge difference between

1. Buy coral(s) from a lfs/farm, don't like it, sell it off.

AND

2. Pick from the sea (either by oneself) or through 3rd parties, sell it and pretend that it is not commercial.

There is also a difference between

1. Buying a coral, grow it, then break off a piece and sell it as a frag

AND

2. Picking a coral from the sea, break it into smaller pieces and selling it as a frag. In the industry, this is called a "chop" shop.

OR

3. Buying a colony from a lfs/farm, break it up into smaller pieces and selling the smaller pieces for a profit.

I totally look down on those who practise options other than (1) and yet pretend to be doing society a service. Day, while I am not one of those that pointed out this thread to AT, I seriously hope that you get into trouble with the law. I hate parasites, especially those who pretend to tread on a moral high ground. Too bad this forum is getting flooded with so many of these slugs these days, and admin is not doing enough to stop them. I get more and more disappointed every time I step in.

[woonming]

There is a huge difference between

1. Buy coral(s) from a lfs/farm, don't like it, sell it off.

AND

2. Pick from the sea (either by oneself) or through 3rd parties, sell it and pretend that it is not commercial.

There is also a difference between

1. Buying a coral, grow it, then break off a piece and sell it as a frag

AND

2. Picking a coral from the sea, break it into smaller pieces and selling it as a frag. In the industry, this is called a "chop" shop.

OR

3. Buying a colony from a lfs/farm, break it up into smaller pieces and selling the smaller pieces for a profit.

I totally look down on those who practise options other than (1) and yet pretend to be doing society a service. Day, while I am not one of those that pointed out this thread to AT, I seriously hope that you get into trouble with the law. I hate parasites, especially those who pretend to tread on a moral high ground. Too bad this forum is getting flooded with so many of these slugs these days, and admin is not doing enough to stop them. I get more and more disappointed every time I step in.

HEhe i think both ur no2 are those that would be fine heavily right if caught ?

[Achilles Tang]

Too bad this forum is getting flooded with so many of these slugs these days, and admin is not doing enough to stop them. I get more and more disappointed every time I step in.

Pacificbetta,

I have posted my stand already on this matter a few posts up.

Well, I don't know how much of a moral authority I can be or an influence... but I think I have made my stand pretty clear.

If you're in doubt or wish further clarification or have any suggestions on how much or what precisely I should do, please share your thoughts openly.

Or more importantly, what the rest of the hobbyists, as a club, can do.

While I appreciate your frankness, not everyone has the same moral high ground as you. This hobby is peopled by individuals of different thoughts, convictions and budget and if we really take the highest horse like some members of the public, we shouldn't even be in this hobby.

[pacificbetta]

not everyone has the same moral high ground as you.

I do not pretend to be a saint, besides, I have always admitted that some of my opinions have been very dubious. So,

1. Is harvesting lettuce and snails from the sea and reselling ON A REGULAR BASIS "commercial" or not?

2. Given that someone posted a webpage on sale of corals of a very dubious source, what is the reefclub stand on this? Does saying you do not support it, but still not censor the thread mean anything? Or is it really important that affordability of aquatic pets be more important than anything else?

3. Does the fact that this person not require such sources of profiteering to make a living grant him/her "hobbyiest" status?

Anyway, it is your forum at the end of the day, I acknowledge that. I am just stating my 2 cents as someone seeing something I don't like. Esp on people who leverage on the forum's access to the market without making any contribution, nor intend to make any future contribution. The same tacit acknowledgement that "such things exist" have already killed the comradeship over a few other forums, are we supposed to take the chance this same thing will not happen here? Or is there something measures being taken that I am not aware of?

[Achilles Tang]

1.  Is harvesting lettuce and snails from the sea and reselling ON A REGULAR BASIS "commercial" or not?

Yes it is commercial. And I do not allow such commercial sales. So anyone that I am aware that are selling livestock harvested from the sea through dubious sources will be treated like any commercial agent/salesman/shop that comes into the SRC forum and profit from their sales.

Hobbyists who are DIYing stuff to help other hobbyists save costs will still be exempted.

2.  Given that someone posted a webpage on sale of corals of a very dubious source, what is the reefclub stand on this?  Does saying you do not support it, but still not censor the thread mean anything?  Or is it really important that affordability of aquatic pets be more important than anything else?

The recent sale of harvested corals from dubious sources have been weighing heavily in my mind for some time. My recent posting a few posts up has more or less summed up my thoughts. I will make it official by posting it as an announcement in the SRC News Forum.

All such future threads will be deleted/censored/edited to comply with the ruling.

3.  Does the fact that this person not require such sources of profiteering to make a living grant him/her "hobbyiest" status?

If he keeps a marine tank as a hobby, he is still a hobbyist. Just like you and many others in some ways. What drives him is up to his conscience.

Anyway, it is your forum at the end of the day, I acknowledge that.  I am just stating my 2 cents as someone seeing something I don't like.  Esp on people who leverage on the forum's access to the market without making any contribution, nor intend to make any future contribution.  The same tacit acknowledgement that "such things exist" have already killed the comradeship over a few other forums, are we supposed to take the chance this same thing will not happen here?  Or is there something measures being taken that I am not aware of?

Rest assured that SRC will take a stand on such issues and while not everyone may see eye to eye with certain policies, I encourage lucent debates and logical conclusions rather than emotional backlashes to form certain guidelines and club objectives. Yet at the end of the day, it's also the hobbyist's personal convictions that will be important.

I think the comradeship amongst marine hobbyists is rather unique and the spinoffs (like scuba-diving) could auger well for the appreciation of all marine life and the conservation of our seas.

Thank you for your frankness.

AT

[pacificbetta]

it's also the hobbyist's personal convictions that will be important.

I personally do not believe that this alone will be enough. Would have prefered if the forum take steps to retify things. But nevertheless, I respect your stand on this and repectfully bows out of this discussion.

[Achilles Tang]

Pacificbetta, don't bow out before letting us know what your thoughts are... especially the 'steps' to 'rectify' things.

I'm actually very curious to know what's in your mind.

[spicyball]

If Day's activities is considered commercial...what about those people who claimed that they have "lobang" for tank and they earn a middlemen charge from it...aren't these considered commercial activities in this forum as well??

[Achilles Tang]

Spicyball... good question.

It's not as clear-cut as they may be referring good lobangs without benefit.

I will give the benefit of doubt to these people. At end of the day, we can go to anyone who makes tanks and we know the pricing anyway... with a little homework.

At this moment, I am flexible with this. But of course, any tank maker who comes in here to advertise his wares will be considered commercial.

[pacificbetta]

IMHO, this forum should take very serious steps to educate the public on the importance of preservation and conservation.

It is bad enough that we are subverting one of nature's greatest gifts for our simple egoistic wants of a glass tank at home.

It is bad enough that the forum expressively prohibits people from *publicly* discussing about the water goods, yet provide a platform for them to discuss in private what is coming in.

Maybe it is clear to you where exactly is the line, and where they are they, but to me, I have never understood why the lines are where they are now. But I am digressing......

I am glad this forum is largely conscientious and have taught many to respect the lifes of their pets.

But if we look at http://www.sgreefclub.com/forum/index.php?...opic=3742&st=15

I see a mixture of people who contributed to the forums, and also some who are simply in for a good deal. Knowing the end consumers, I think there is nothing much we can do to stop them from getting a good deal. But I fear that such a blatant display of ease of collection, and demand will spark another flood of people collecting items from the local waters. Now, it is arguable that we all are buying something that is wild collected anyway, but the big difference is that we pay for the items from the shops, at least there is some form of moderation there. But if the forum is used to teach others where to collect such items, we may jolly well end up making the same mistakes that our neighbours did. That was how cynaide collection and dynamite fishing started. These "things" are free, communal property not owned by anyone in particular, so if I need only 5 snails, and am already at the collection site, I will pick 10, just in case some die on the way home, the extras can always throw in to the dustbin. Since I am there, and the nice big brown acro colony is nearby, why don't I snap off a few branches and see if I can sell in the forum. If I cannot sell them, just thrown them away, no loss to me. Things may escalate from here. Now we only have a "day", who knows when a "nite" or a 3rd or 4th party will turn up offering equally good services?

I seriously hope those who read these realise what your purchase of a 50cts snail can possibly mean, what it can possibly encourage.

What steps to take?

How about taking the first step and having a nice talk to our young day here, (his hp is published in public domain anyway), and talking to those who ordered from him. Maybe you can persuade him to stop demonstrating the commercial viabilty of wild collection, he don't need it for his next meal anyway. An outright bann of such posting will be less effective than if you can educate and persuade him yourself. After all the under table transactions of commercial PMs masurading as lobangs is too many already.

My $0.02

[Razo]

I seriously hope that you get into trouble with the law. I hate parasites, especially those who pretend to tread on a moral high ground.

err.. i think he with the police coast or police force if i'm not wrg... dun think he would break the law.. unless..

[pacificbetta]

i think he with the police coast or police force if i'm not wrg

Oooh, lagi better, mata dealing with things that he should not deal in. twice the penalty!!!!

Day, you must be reading this, speak up!

I must be bored at work today man..... posting so much nonsense. And best of all, just realised I am some spineless creature -> a sea cucumber......

[pospeh]

I am all for conservation measures. I think I have already made my stand clear on the last version of SRC.

Obviously the coral being sold here are subject to CITES regulation on exportation of live hard corals, whether they come from Sg, Malaysia or Indonesia.

They are clearly illegal, and if the fellow is foolish enough to post his hp, then he fully deserves to have the law come down hard on him, and quickly.

I support LFS that brings in CITES cleared stock, and that is why I suggest that persons interested in keeping SPS and clams should patronize stores like paradiz reef,

You may pay a bit more, but the extra money goes to conservation efforts worldwide.

[Matt06]

Greetings Everyone.

I am just an ordinary hobbiest and get to know this forum not too long ago.

Truely, we are talking about trading and up-keeping of live marine animals and so on.

pacificbetta, I believe that you are viewing from Conservationist's point of view.

Truely, we talk about how to appreaciate Nature from those living high up in he mountain range to those deep within the ocean. But, when I get to know this hobby, I know that I am not truely a Conservationist. This is because this hobby is contrary to the fact of conservation and protection. Hobby means having something that blends into our lives and making sure that they survive while under our care - which is what this Forum is about - I assume.

This is not a forum to talk about how to conserve those living in the sea, but to a certain extend, we tries to understand what they need and who they are, and to understand better on how to keep them in our tank while equip ourselves with the necessary knowledge to simulate the best enviroment that is as close to their nature habitat as possible.

If you point of view is focus on Consevation, I guess you will not gain much from this forum. But instead, I strongly urge that you should assist and post some topics that educate us of what is happening in our ocean and educational website/information which allow us to have a deep understanding on the marine creatures that we are keeping.

By such Educational influence, I am sure that we will have a more positively-focus Forum which not just an ordinary place to discuss, but also a place when we can exchange information which will benifits all.

[pacificbetta]

pacificbetta, I believe that you are viewing from Conservationist's point of view.

Nah, I am not a conservationalist. I am just against uncontrolled and often senseless exploitation of nature's resources. If I am a greenpeace activist, then G Bush is a muslim in disguise.

I am also very sensistive to claims that are blatantly contradicting to their stated mission.

Last statement not directed at you AT, .

My point is that for every butterfly that died in our tank, every tang that went down with ich, every sea fan that died of starvation, the hobbiest must learn something from that experience. It should not be treated as just another $5 wasted.

I strongly urge that you should assist and post some topics that educate us of what is happening in our ocean and educational website/information which allow us to have a deep understanding on the marine creatures that we are keeping.

But I did, just that the forum's topics keep getting busted. *Intentional poke at AT, LOL*

[Matt06]

Thanks for clarifying. At least I do share "I am just against uncontrolled and often senseless exploitation of nature's resources" point of view as you.

[Achilles Tang]

Still waiting for your suggestions of serious steps to take, pacificbetta.

[Rufff]

Nah, I am not a conservationalist. I am just against uncontrolled and often senseless exploitation of nature's resources. If I am a greenpeace activist, then G Bush is a muslim in disguise.

I am also very sensistive to claims that are blatantly contradicting to their stated mission.

Last statement not directed at you AT, .

My point is that for every butterfly that died in our tank, every tang that went down with ich, every sea fan that died of starvation, the hobbiest must learn something from that experience. It should not be treated as just another $5 wasted.

But I did, just that the forum's topics keep getting busted. *Intentional poke at AT, LOL*

What does being a MUSLIM got 2 do with anything??? Lets not get into religion here ... we R talking about marine life/keeping rite! Lets not confuse religion with a HOBBY, thats a dangerous line 2 follow I can assure U.

Besides being a conservationist or not ("conservationalist" - note yr typo), each person plays a part in how he/she affects nature. Yes as keepers of Mother Earth we should play our part in conservation & keeping the ecology safe 4 the generations ahead. As marine hobbist, we R already depleting the world's oceans of their inhabitants, so we have 2 B responsible in what we acquire/purchase/sell. What pple choose 2 sell/buy is a matter of choice. No one forces anybody 2 buy anything ... if there is no demand there will be no supply... simple economics.

I'm not siding or accusing anyone 4 that matter. Just my humble opinion. I am an animal lover & care deeply 4 these fair creatures be it cats, dogs or fishes, etc. They R living creatures, just like U & me. Just because they can't talk or write does not mean thet we can mistreat or abuse them. They breathe, eat, sleep just like any of us ... please treat them with respect & dignity 4 they R God's creations too.

Sorry 2 digress frm main topic but I have read some posts that regard fishes & such as if they R not living creatures, like they have no brains ... duh! Even if their brains were minute, does that give us the right 2 think we R better than them. We R lucky 2 B born humans, mayB some of these pple can come back as fishes ... then they'll know how it feels ... karma or something like that.

Dun worry I'm not worked up just needed 2 get it off my chest thats all. Cheers!

[SpiderOne]

honestly he even says new arrival of corals. all sps . all brown. (about half of them are RTNing). they are pictured in a temporary tub with powerheads for circulation. and he takes orders. Whats not to know that this is a commercial post.

remember the

No free lunch policy

Similar to those people who go coast and catch things. cant i just buy what is already caught and not go and encourage EVEN MORE(keyword) reef destruction than what is already going on. How much can u make only. why bother.

[pospeh]

This is not just about conservation, it's also about obeying with the law, whether we like them or not.

Singapore has laws against the collection, exportation, and importation of hard corals without the proper permits. These permits cost LFS $$$ to apply for, and in some cases, if the species is endangered, the gov't wont issue the permits.

If you do them without a permit, you are breaking the law, and could be fined and jailed.

Think of the extra money we spend on buying from reputable stores as a tax toward conservation, just like we have fishing and hunting licenses. Their purpose is really no different from the tax we get charged on cigarettes because it is a health hazard, and also takes extra manpower to clean the butts from the streets.

[Rufff]

This is not just about conservation, it's also about obeying with the law, whether we like them or not.

Singapore has laws against the collection, exportation, and importation of hard corals without the proper permits.  These permits cost LFS $$$ to apply for, and in some cases, if the species is endangered, the gov't wont issue the permits.

If you do them without a permit, you are breaking the law, and could be fined and jailed.

Think of the extra money we spend on buying from reputable stores as a tax toward conservation, just like we have fishing and hunting licenses.  Their purpose is really no different from the tax we get charged on cigarettes because it is a health hazard, and also takes extra manpower to clean the butts from the streets.

I'm ALL 4 laws, & it seems most Singaporeans need them anyway! I totally agree that we require all these rules & regulations 2 protect the environment, the legitimate LFS (businessmen) & even hobbyist like us. Many of these laws R passed/permits issued - so that the relevant authorities can keep tabs on unscrupulous human beings, out 2 make a few bucks off these engangered creatures.

I too support "conservation tax" 4 they R obviously needed coz most pple just dun bother - that what they do will eventually effect the environment/Mother Nature. As with most Singaporeans, its the pockets that hurt the most! If we R made 2 pay extra 4 something, mayB we will THINK more "deeply" ... but I doubt everybody does that.

If only pple care enugh 2 care, we wouldn't need laws & such, but alas the world is a cruel place & we require laws 2 protect the innocent B4 they become extinct ...

[ocean]

I am confused, is pacificbetta against the commercial post or the hobby altogether?

I think each of us SRC members can play a part in reducing if not eliminate this kind of commercial post in future, simply don't respond to them, no matter how tempting it is!! No demand...no supply. Juz my 2 cents.

[Hard Rock]

do you always had all this stuff for sale?