Drastic Measure That I will Take

[seamonkee]

A bit long but do read on if you got time... a valuable lesson to learn...

Moral of the story, I think we really need to advocate good quarantine husbandry if we really want to keep fishes alive and healthy... I myself am guilty of skipping quarantine (1 month some experts suggested) and not fully aware of its consequences... Having intro one infected fish and learning about the dreaded ich, I realise most of us have a misconception that once it is cleared, it will never come back....

Truth I learnt (the hard way), is that ich does go into different cycles and they come back more in greater numbers (1 cyst can burst into 200 free swimming iches to infect others in a few days or so)... then do I realise, the seriousness of not practising patience and good quarantine husbandry....

Being Singaporean, we are so kiasu and often "snatch" good looking fishes as much as we can.... some to the extent of going down to wholesalers and buying from LFS once it arrives.... (I am guilty of it... why? Cause if I really have to wait two weeks or so, to be honest, what good looking fishes are left???)

This is probably one thing we have to learn from our American fellow reefers who I heard have very good quarantine practices.... AT HOME....

Two tanks they advocate... one as display and one as quarantine/hospital...

I learnt that quarantine tanks do not be as big as we often thought so.... and in fact, quarantine tanks are preferred without substrate, liverocks or so....

I just want to share on this experience of mine and hope that many reefers here can learn from my mistake... If we have to buy from LFS (which we are aware they dun quarantine... then we have to do it ourselves... it will save you lots of headache later... like the following corrective action that I have to take)

I was shocked when one reputable LFS learned of my ich problem and blurt out to me that it is normal and in fact, every early morning and late night, most of his fishes in the shop are covered in ich.... Some more his fishes is pricey because he once told me that they are conditioned and ich-free... (I reckon this is probably one reason why most LFS opens at around 1pm and close at 8pm... )

Do read on to see the trouble that I have to take because I did not use another quarantine tank in the first place... too rash... too impulsive and definitely, undermining the seriousness of ich attacks...

One scary thing I learn about ich is that they have somewhat evolving capabilities... Now there are even NEW VARIANTS that can survive in hyposalinity conditions... and people are debating now the effectiveness of hyposalinity treatments...

Morale of the story.. Have a quarantine tank and dose medication for your fish before releasing it into the tank!!!

Oh yeah, pepper solution and garlic are not proven 100% effective.... and in theory, garlic as a boost to fish immunity is only a theoretical proposal correlated to human immunity and in honesty, has not been scientifically proven for to work on fishes...

The only 100% solution (from what I lean) is to take out all fishes, put into a separate tank and treat them with copper medication (since copper can kill sharks, rays, invertebrates and coral) and leave the main display tank fallow (without fishes as host for the ich to breed)... then the ich can be completely eradicated.... IT IS POSSIBLE TO HAVE AN ICH FREE TANK!!!!

Think of the trouble if you have a big tank like mine and value the importance of proper quarantine practices....

[seamonkee]

This is my final decision and course of action to fight ich once and for all..... Do give me your suggestion and feedback... I want to strive for a tank that is totally ich-free...

Will be doing a two-prong approach to resolve the problem once and for all....

I will be taking out all the live rocks..... scope out all fishes and invertebrates..... and do some rescaping at the same time (after a few bros commented how dull the current flat structure is for my FOWLR.... )

FISH IN HOSPITAL TANK

I have a fibreglass indoor pond (in my storeroom) of size 3'x2'x1'.... and will be using it as hospital tank while I live the main tank fallow...

In this fibreglass pond tank, the set up will include:

1) Saltwater that is properly ph buffered and at 1.023

2) Two filter bags of grade 3 coral chips as biological filter

3) Some pvc pipes of various size to house the fishes...

4) Two strong powerheads to run the system and keep the current flowing...

5) Possible transfer of my chiller to chill the fishes in this fibreglass pond during this period.... (What do you think? Overkill?)

These fishes will be kept in this tank for two month while the main tank goes through a fallow stage.... Over this period, periodic copper treatment (as suggested by Henry of Marine Life) will be performed with % water change every week or so.... Henry was telling me hypo may not really work and living the tank fishless for two months is the best...

Current fishes (12 pcs ranking in size) include a 5" blue tang, 5" asfur angel, 5" kunzlinger wrasse, 4" sailfin tang, 3" yellow tang, 2.5" flame angel, 2" fridmani dottyback (mated pair), 1.5" tomato clown, 1" clarkii clown, 1" cleaner wrasse, 1" yellow neon goby.

INVERTEBRATES IN HOSPITAL TANK

As for the invertebrates, I got two common starfishes, three cleaner shrimps, 1 long tentacle anemone (for the clarkii), and one bubble tip (for the tomato), 3 feather dusters....

This will be taken out and put into a 2 ft small acrylic tank system which I am buying to house the invertebrates over this two month period...

Why did I take them out? As explained later.....

This 2ft tank will serve as quarantine tank for any new fishes in the future... learn my lesson the hard way of overtrusting the quality of fishes from some LFS.... Subsequently, the agreement between my wife and I is to buy only one fish at one time and quarantine them for one month or two before releasing in main tank... patience... patience...

HYPOSALINITY IN MAIN TANKU]

Now that the main tank is free from precious fishes and invertebrates, all live rocks will be taken out for a scrub and put back in the main tank (do some rescaping at the same time)....

I will then do a drastic change of water and leave it in hyposalinity stage (1.019) to nuke the ich for two months.... ONCE AND FOR ALL... hahaha...

I am aware of the possiblity loss of good flora and fauna on the substrate and liverocks but I'm not taking any chances.... and I believe these good flora and fauna will florish again in due time... On a positive note, think about the hairy crabs and bristleworms that will be gone too....

LASTLY, I need to know too if free swimming ich is able to burrow into substrate? Cause need to know if I need to stir the substrate or not? Otherwise, the salinity in the substrate remains high and I defeat the purpose if the ich truly buries in substrate and hibernate there....

Thanks bros.... and learn from my mistake!!!

[pangz]

Serious? Sounds like outright war. hehe.... good luck.

But I'm not too sure about whether ich can be completely eradicted. Is there some other reason causing your fish to be susceptible to ich? stress? mine had ich initially, but eventually cleared up without any drastic measures.

[LaW]

valuable lessons made. thanks for pointing to all of us.

it takes alot of courage and effort for someone doing what u said.

good bro. i think its going to work. but do put more PVC pipes.

read that ich will somehow be found in substrate. IMO, no need to stir the sand bed. just leave ur precious tank fishless for two months and starve the ich to death.

for chiller, just watch the temperature. dun think its a problem.

update us the results too.

im sure it going to be good.

good luck reefer.

[cjh]

wow!!! another war!!! lol...

hope u win this war!!

all the best man!!!!

i mentally support u.... haha...

[Archer82]

Hi there bro,

I definitely think your efforts will pay off considering the amount of effort you are putting in and I would also suggest some method of increasing the immunity of the fishes in addition to the methods described above.

And yes regarding quarantine I personally feel it is a must. In fact I used to be like you in the beginning but I changed after my initial tank setup had ich outbreaks

Also keep a lookout for any potential stress factors as my opinion is that even if ich is present, healthy fishes shd be able to steer clear of them.

Another good method of eradicating itch which will save u lots of work is to fix UV. I used UV for the first 3 months wheny tank was running 24 hrs till the bulb blew ( Lol ) and then removed it and my fishes have been fine since ( touch wood hehe )

Good Luck with the rescaping and I'm sure all the bros here look forward to seeing your new improved tank !

Cheers

Archer

[roidan]

just my 2cents...

if u really want to be that thorough, you also have to quarantine corals that you buy from lfs, because some non free-swimming stages of ich may be present on them as well....

while there are many methods like hypo, copper.....for fishes....corals on the other hand will not be receptive to such treatment...

u may have to set up another tank, put new corals in there with suitable light, another chiller and so on......basically a fishless tank with all these corals for months to ensure totally no ich population in there before u transfer the corals into your main tank....and in the case you want to buy some new corals and put in this tank...no no no...otherwise u are resetting the time again

but luckily yours is mainly a FOWLR, so probably such 'new corals' isolation method may not be applicable for you in this outright war against ich

[seamonkee]

just my 2cents...

if u really want to be that thorough, you also have to quarantine corals that you buy from lfs, because some non free-swimming stages of ich may be present on them as well....

while there are many methods like hypo, copper.....for fishes....corals on the other hand will not be receptive to such treatment...

u may have to set up another tank, put new corals in there with suitable light, another chiller and so on......basically a fishless tank with all these corals for months to ensure totally no ich population in there before u transfer the corals into your main tank....and in the case you want to buy some new corals and put in this tank...no no no...otherwise u are resetting the time again 

but luckily yours is mainly a FOWLR, so probably such 'new corals' isolation method may not be applicable for you in this outright war against ich

Mine is a FOWLR.... and Thank God I made that decision to have FOWLR....

Will keep you all posted on my "War" effort... but I do learned that an ichless tank is possible.... so even if I do really have a stressed fish then... it will stil not get ich if you have an ichless tank...

Taking this time too to boost their immunity with garlic.... Also have a UV light installed (Corallife 6x) but dun seem effective....

Lastly, I am rescaping my tank in case the issue is a territorial related one...

Thanks for all bros comments....

[seamonkee]

Honestly, this is what frustrate me.... I won't mention which LFS but it is one of the REPUTABLE LFS..... (By the way, it is not Henry.... since I mentioned his name earlier)....

I was shocked when one reputable LFS learned of my ich problem and blurt out to me that it is normal and in fact, every early morning and late night, most of his fishes in the shop are covered in ich....   Some more his fishes is pricey because he once told me that they are conditioned and ich-free... (I reckon this is probably one reason why most LFS opens at around 1pm and close at 8pm...   )

[seamonkee]

Here's an update of my battle against ich....

Casualties so far:

1) Asfur Angel - $80

2) Kunzlinger Wrasse - $60

3) Fridamani Dottyback - $35

These were bought at the same time.. so I suspect one of them got ich which transmitted to the rest...

As for my earlier resident fishes... Not a single dot and still surviving.... but still scratching against make shift hospital tank:

Yellow Tang, Blue Tang, Sailfin Tang, Firefish, Tomato, Cleaner Wrasse....

Have shifted surviving fishes to makeshift hospital tank (fibreglass pond tank), with lots of PVC pipes, one powerhead and one bag of coral chip in it (for bio filter)... Salinity is at 1.018.... to destress fish before copper treatment tomorrow...

As for invertebrates, they are shifted to another small tank of salinity 1.023

As for display tank (no inhabitants now except liverocks to starve ich), more than 50% water change and salinity set to 1.009...... to nuke the damn ich.... salinity will be brought up slowly to 1.022 over a period of two months.....

[LaW]

Here's an update of my battle against ich....

Casualties so far:

1) Asfur Angel - $80

2) Kunzlinger Wrasse - $60

3) Fridamani Dottyback - $35

These were bought at the same time.. so I suspect one of them got ich which transmitted to the rest...

As for my earlier resident fishes... Not a single dot and still surviving.... but still scratching against make shift hospital tank:

Yellow Tang, Blue Tang, Sailfin Tang, Firefish, Tomato, Cleaner Wrasse....

Have shifted surviving fishes to makeshift hospital tank (fibreglass pond tank), with lots of PVC pipes, one powerhead and one bag of coral chip in it (for bio filter)... Salinity is at 1.018.... to destress fish before copper treatment tomorrow...

As for invertebrates, they are shifted to another small tank of salinity 1.023

As for display tank (no inhabitants now except liverocks to starve ich), more than 50% water change and salinity set to 1.009...... to nuke the damn ich.... salinity will be brought up slowly to 1.022 over a period of two months.....

sorry for the lost........

[iori_del]

hi bro, since ur is a FOWLR, which dun u do the hypo at 1.008 when u spotted itch? i done it to mine when i saw some itch, and now my fish are all ok liao, then i slowly raise it back to 1.022.

I think best is put all the fish into the main tank and drop and sg and hold it at 1.008.

BTW how u measure the SG, hope not those swing or float meter....

[seamonkee]

Nay.... doing the hypo in the main tank without any fishes.... easier for me, since I need to rescape at the same time...

And if the fishes are stressed during treatment in hospital tank (hiding in PVC pipes), it is easier to rectify compare to in the main tank (hiding in live rocks)..

I have a refractometer...

This morning saw some bristleworms dead in main tank.....

Here's my new rescaping.... more defined shape as compared to the flat boring one I had earlier....

[seamonkee]

hi bro, since ur is a FOWLR, which dun u do the hypo at 1.008 when u spotted itch? i done it to mine when i saw some itch, and now my fish are all ok liao, then i slowly raise it back to 1.022.

I think best is put all the fish into the main tank and drop and sg and hold it at 1.008.

BTW how u measure the SG, hope not those swing or float meter....

Also, I want to leave the main tank totally free from fishes so there are no host for the ich.... This will ensure totally no surviving ich....

Fishes in hospital tank will undertake copper treatment...

[planetg]

let it run fishless for 6 weeks

Ich can stick around for 4-6 weeks, but without any fish as host, it will die off.

[dmitri]

hi bro, since ur is a FOWLR, which dun u do the hypo at 1.008 when u spotted itch? i done it to mine when i saw some itch, and now my fish are all ok liao, then i slowly raise it back to 1.022.

I think best is put all the fish into the main tank and drop and sg and hold it at 1.008.

BTW how u measure the SG, hope not those swing or float meter....

hi bro,

i had read an article written by an expert hobbist stating that hyposalinity treatment should not be performed with live rocks or biological substrates in main tanks. reason stated was that all good and bad bacteria will be killed, resulting in ammonia spike which would eventually kill all the fish.

did you remove your live rocks first b4 you carry out the hypo. if no, is there any casualties. thought of going for it but was to afraid, currently have about 10 pricey fish in it. can advice?

regards

[seamonkee]

hi bro,

i had read an article written by an expert hobbist stating that hyposalinity treatment should not be performed with live rocks or biological substrates in main tanks. reason stated was that all good and bad bacteria will be killed, resulting in ammonia spike which would eventually kill all the fish.

did you remove your live rocks first b4 you carry out the hypo. if no, is there any casualties. thought of going for it but was to afraid, currently have about 10 pricey fish in it. can advice?

regards

Fishes and invertebrates are all taken out.... fishes to hospital tank while invertebrates to another smaller tank....

Fishes in hospital tank is in salinity of 1.019 (as recommended by henry of marine life)..... awaiting copper treatment...

Display tank receives a 80% water change w liverocks inside... leaving the hyposalinity to 1.008 for one night..... Right now, see lots of parasatic aptasia anemones dead.....

Today, draw out 50% water and add salt water to raise to 1.018....

Tomorrow, another 30% water change or so and add salt water to raise back to 1.022.....

Another 1 or 2 days invetebrates will go back in... and display tank will be left fallow (without fishes) for two months....

[bloodlamb]

hi,

Just thought that maybe I can suggest you use plastic bio balls instead of coral chips. The coral chips might absorb some of the copper. If you don't use test kit hard to get the concentration right.

[seamonkee]

hi,

Just thought that maybe I can suggest you use plastic bio balls instead of coral chips. The coral chips might absorb some of the copper. If you don't use test kit hard to get the concentration right.

No coral chips in treatment tank..

Also got a copper test kit...

[Derek0925]

bro seamonkee!

Need to seek your advise...i am using hyposalinity for 2 weeks liao...it seems the white spot are still very visible. Normally how long before the spot start to drop and improve??? I heard some forumer say within 1 week it should go off...else it is not working. Another 5 weeks is merely to starve any possible new one from forming. is it true? please help

Thanks