Branded vs DIY protein skimmers

[sheltiejazz]

Hi all, how should one compare the pro and cons of the performance of a branded skimmer vs a diy one of the same kind? For e.g., a beckett

thanks

[alanseah]

if DIY one can win..then all german company can close shop lor..

[Jimng]

I believe in conscientious maintenance of the skimmer cup and neck, if those area are dirty, how best a skimmer can be will also underperform.......

Some items worth considering when comparing skimmers -

-Ease of maintenance

-Ability to reduce bubble escaping

-Skimmer ease of tunability

-Required pump to drive skimmer -ie. heat, power consumption

-Workmanship

-Bubble size

-Cost

Pretty hard to compare.....individual preference....

[tineng]

let the german come up with the techology....the diy'er improves on them and sell to us cheap....

But seriously. somethings can be hard to diy....for example, needlewheels skimmer.....

[Archilles19]

Personally...if Ur bio load can be reduced by the use of a certain skimmer then that skimmer iss for Ur system setup....

It should be able to rid most of the nutrients at which the break out of cyano, slime, etc is very minimise or total zero.....then that is a good skimmer

[steven]

IMO, needle driven are the best....

they are quiet and effective for my 4 ft....

[hermit]

i personally feels tat is the matter of work one goin to put in in diying his own skimmer..........

if u know the engineering and scientific principles of the skimmer i am sure wif enuff R&D, diy products will anytime better than those branded stuff..........

anyway all branded stuff out there are also gone thru alot of research and development b4 they can start to commercialise their units mah.......

so dont u think is still the same.............

[Achilles Tang]

The debate on the better skimmer will never end!

That said...

There are 3 basic parts to coming up with a product.

1. Research & Development for a sound design & effective workings

2. Actual manufacturing process & quality control

3. Branding & Marketing

1. Research & Development for a sound design & effective workings

There are many schools of thought in skimmer designs. All have their pros and cons. No perfect skimmer exists because there are too many variables going into the design. That said, the fundamentals of effective skimming are there to be adhered to, be it with needlewheels, downdrafts, airstone, venturi, becketts etc etc, so the basic design is there.

Basically all skimmers should try to cramp as much fine bubbles in as much volume and density as they can fit into a skimmer body. How they achieve it is also reflected in the costs of the equipment.

There are also obvious advantages of each design - a beckett nozzle outperforms almost all other venturi-types in terms of air mixture. A Weipro needlewheel cannot be compared to the H&S or Deltec needlewheel, which again cannot compare to the titanium spoked bubbleking needlewheel!

That said, there are extremely simple designs by German branded skimmers being priced very high and there are complicated DIY skimmers charged reasonably. Go figure.

R&D costs have to go somewhere. Oops... there also costs in patenting designs too!

Most manufacturers base their designs on what works already, with minor improvements here and there or a slight design change so as to look original. The DIYers are the most obvious in adapting designs!

2. Actual manufacturing process & quality control

Every skimmer in this world, German, USA, China or Singapore-made ones, be it the H&S, Deltec, Bubbleking, Sander, Weipro, 'branded' DIY or true DIY ones are ALL hand-made or hand-assembled! There is no automated assembly line that puts together skimmers, like cars!

Going by this, one has to judge the amount of effort in the hand-work going into the assembly. There are 'branded' skimmers with shoddy workmanship... take a look at some of the German brands and you can see acrylic glue marks everywhere. Some even use PVC bodies! Some of the branded DIY kits, especially from the US, are extremely well hand-crafted with almost perfect workmanship and with better materials even!

Is there any difference between a handcrafted bubbleking made in a workshop and a handcrafted DIY version made in a workshop? Perhaps a lot, perhaps none at all!

So it all boils down to the effort and QC by the maker of the skimmer.

3. Branding & Marketing

The sad fact is that someone has to pay for all the advertising, branding, marketing, and retail promotional costs. This does not even include the freight costs and dealer/reseller price margins!

You buy a Gucci watch, you buy the branding. Even though the internal mechanism may be the same as a Japanese watch. Same applies to just about everything in the consumer market!

Branded vs no brand... a no brand can become a brand overnight.

Consumers would rather go for branded because it instills confidence and quality. There are even brands among DIY makers...

Which brand to go for? Some people will justify paying $100 for a hankerchief because its branded vs paying $1 for the same hankerchief without any branding on it!

Confused? So am I!

I base my choice of skimmers on a few things:

Effectiveness of skimming method vs upfront cost vs running costs vs easy maintenance vs good workmanship vs size vs sound design vs brand vs comments from users vs complaints from wife about size and noise vs space in sump or room vs upgradebility vs resale value vs materials used vs easy operability.

More confused?

Just buy the most expensive German skimmer in town and justify it as being worth every cent you paid! Or do a lot of research and buy something closer to its true value!

Bottomline - just be happy with what you already bought. A cat that catches the mouse is still a cat. It's whether you get a Garfield or not!

My 2 cents!

AT

[Dispar_Anthias]

Hi all, how should one compare the pro and cons of the performance of a branded skimmer vs a diy one of the same kind? For e.g., a beckett

thanks

aiyah cannot comapre one lolx...... Just get a skimmer suit you den ok liao.... Go for reputable brand like H&S, deltec, BK, schuran or even MRC or beckett and you should be alright... Oh ya get the skimmer that is rated oversize for you tank

[typrobin]

AT has already answered in the most convincing manner...there's no BEST skimmer...

buy something tat u feel is good enough for yourself and your tank...make it affordable (price and running cost)...

as a DIYer myself, i feel that the best thing about DIYed products is that u can customise almost every single detail...but if u buy a reputed brand, eg: H&S / Deltec, i dun think they will make a customised set just for u to fit into your cabinet and sump...although certain BRANDS allow customising, its still very minimal...

and not forgetting, if we are talking bout local DIYers, we can always count on customer service (to a certain extend)...

[weileong]

FYI, deltec do make customised units.

eg like they can make the skimmer shorter by 1 or 2" so that it fits your setup for you.

[sheltiejazz]

Hi all, thanks for all the advices. I guess I understand where you are coming from.

Maybe let me ask another question.

I intend to set up a 5x2x2.75 feet tank. Could brothers here with the same or bigger tank tell me what skimmer you are using?

So far, this is what i know people have used...

Deltec AP902

Macro AS350

Thanks

[AlfaRomeo]

You want to know what makes a skimmer great and what makes a skimmer not-so-great, Check this out:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-06/...ature/index.htm

In Summary:

To Summarize the Current Skimmers:

Air driven counter-current: low water flow, good foam production (with new air stones), good bubble size, maximum contact times (with taller units), frequent maintenance and requires frequent water height adjustments (called tuning).

Venturi: good water flow, good foam production, moderate contact time, requires a powerful pump, valve tends to clog (Lifereef has a self-cleaning venturi valve).

Beckett-head skimmer: high water flow, maximum bubble production, moderate contact time (swirling patterns will increase this), requires a very powerful pump, Beckett-head requires cleaning.

Downdraft™: good water flow, excellent bubble production, excellent contact time. Units tend to be tall and bulky (the ETSS 1000 is over 60” tall), require powerful pumps to create air bubbles.

Aspirating skimmer: low to moderate water flow, good foam production, good bubble size, excellent contact time, cost-efficient, requires specialized impellor or needlewheel. The needlewheel impellors have been shown to be a weak point.

The Skimmer Laws that will shape an effective skimmer from "Aquatic Systems Engineering: Devices and How They Function, P.R.Escobal 2000"

2nd Law: The bombardment rate (number of times a clean air bubble bumps into a drop of water) depends on the duration of the tank water exchange and the diameter of the skimmer.

3rd Law: Increased skimmer length or height only raises the value of the absolute contact time but does not affect the bombardment rate.

5th Law: The airflow rate entering a skimmer should produce a full upward blossom of bubbles without excessive turbulence, and is theoretically determined as a function of skimmer diameter, length, bombardment rate and absolute contact time.

6th Law: The value of bombardment rate within the skimmer, its length, diameter and airflow must all be properly chosen for optimum operation.

[AlfaRomeo]

Hi all, thanks for all the advices. I guess I understand where you are coming from.

Maybe let me ask another question.

I intend to set up a 5x2x2.75 feet tank. Could brothers here with the same or bigger tank tell me what skimmer you are using?

So far, this is what i know people have used...

Deltec AP902

Macro AS350

Thanks

You gotta be kidding about the Macro rite?

[sheltiejazz]

Ehh, not joking, unless i got it wrong. Got a bro here using it for 5ft tank.

[Achilles Tang]

I must also point out that if the DIYer does not even has a good grasp of skimming theories, skimmer & water dymanics & a good grasp of mechanics.... building a skimmer is like trying to build a car from copying a sketch.

Fitting 18inch wheels on Datsun 120Y doesn't make it go faster nor does wrapping a 1 litre engine in a body of a rolls royce make it work.

Some DIYers do not even know why a keyholes are preferred over straight holes and why rubber gaskets don't work compared to O-rings. Some don't even know what sizes of valves are suited for enough water flow! Some don't even know why the downpipes for becketts are better up high!

Go with someone who KNOWS what he's building and WHY and HOW it works.

[hermit]

[ReDDeviLs]

some DIYers dont know what they are doing, try to come up with their better bigger idea and in the end,cant work well at all.. try to go for reputated diyers.. more $ spend,but more safe! and also better after sales service.

[hermit]

some DIYers dont know what they are doing, try to come up with their better bigger idea and in the end,cant work well at all.. try to go for reputated diyers.. more $ spend,but more safe! and also better after sales service.

hmmmmmmmm

ya lor.........some time may be very comfuse whether to go where to get......... to buy ex branded stuff or to get diy stuff lor...............

[typrobin]

Hi all, thanks for all the advices. I guess I understand where you are coming from.

Maybe let me ask another question.

I intend to set up a 5x2x2.75 feet tank. Could brothers here with the same or bigger tank tell me what skimmer you are using?

So far, this is what i know people have used...

Deltec AP902

Macro AS350

Thanks

certainly a deltec will be a MUCH MUCH better choice...as certified by our local experienced reefers...

[IanJ]

I use an Aquamedic 5000 baby on the same size tank, i drilled out the air in-take to a larger diameter to increase air flow, no complaints.

[happy]

If your budget permits, go for germany brand.

I'm having a dual beckett skimmer(DIY by tyrobin) + Iwaki MX100 for my tank, but I seriously considering to change to deltec AP902 or AP1003 in the coming month.

I prefer germany brand, as their products are all top notch and will give you peace of mind for the years to come.

Just my comments.

[weisoon]

Best will be go around and look at the various brands, including DIYs. Then while looking at it, look at the various 'parts' that make up the whole unit and then ask yourself why these 'parts' are there. Then compare these 'parts' with the various brands and analyst the reason for them to be there. There will be some parts that are specially made and patented and only that one brand has it and it is there for a reason.

Give you an example.....

the transition from the skimmer body to the riser tube. Some just join the body to the riser resulting in a 90 degress angle. Some used vacuum form acrylic. Some used molded plastics. Ask yourself these questions:

1. Which design give less turbulence at the transition?

2. Which design give less 'bombardment' of the small bubbles into bigger bubbles before even they go up the riser?

3. Which design will suffer leak after long term usage? Please note that acrylic will expand by 0.2% volume after long soak in water.

4. The way the transition is 'attached' to both the body and the riser. Are they welded? Glued? Glued at the edges only where the transition meets the body? Or there are extra lengths protruding out to make the transition sits on the body?

5. Things to consider for point 4 is the expansion of acrylic and more importantly, the weight of the collection cup with all the skimmate if no drain is installed acting on at the joint.

And many more......Best if you look around, think, then decide. But ultimately decide if it is value for money

[typrobin]

If your budget permits, go for germany brand.

I'm having a dual beckett skimmer(DIY by tyrobin) + Iwaki MX100 for my tank, but I seriously considering to change to deltec AP902 or AP1003 in the coming month.

I prefer germany brand, as their products are all top notch and will give you peace of mind for the years to come.

Just my comments.

whao!! that's a major upgrade!!

germany products are well known for their quality...in terms of longevity and performance...look at eheim pumps, never fail after using for almost 5years after passing from one hand to another...

if i'm not wrong red dragon also from germany, which pump is as efficient as red dragon?? none at the moment...

if only japan start building skimmers, i bet it will be top notch too...

[weileong]

The price of Japanese skimmers will be even more "attractive" then