Cheap??? Method of Reefing ...

[sunnymau]

anyone has use this method with corals?

any feedback? so very tempted to try. seems very cool, but not sure yet, don know there will be any effect on my corals

[barnacle]

anyone has use this method with corals?

any feedback? so very tempted to try. seems very cool, but not sure yet, don know there will be any effect on my corals

i think everybody keen to noe the effect on corals.

do keeps us update on your xperiment

[Zac]

actually sugar dosing really works just that ph will go down.. bro lizard44 or can anyone ans me. can i dose sugar and at the same time dose ph buffer to maintain my ph levels? when ph suddenly drops will it stress my fishes can cause white spots? please advice.

[klim]

Let me do a summarised of the encounterment with Bro Lizard44 suggestion on Sugar Dosing.....

Day 1 - Tested NO3 = 25mg/l; SW = 1.022; Added 3 teaspoon of sugar

Day 2 - Whole tank blur, can't see a thing, so scared that my LS all died....almost wanted to change water, but went back to read on the posting that this is normal, so waited...n waited....luckily water clear after 20hrs....

Day 3 - Start dosing sugar = 3 teaspoon

Day 4 - continue dosing sugar = 3 teaspoon

Day 5 - Tested NO3 = 12.5mg/l; SW = btw 1.022 - 1.023; Added 3 teaspoon of sugar

Day 6 - Start dosing sugar = 3 teaspoon

Day 7 - continue dosing sugar = 3 teaspoon

Day 8 - continue dosing sugar = 3 teaspoon

Day 9 - Tested NO3 = 0mg/l; SW = 1.023; PH = 7.6; Temp = 27.5C

Stopped dosing sugar, added PH buffer to restore....the PH really went down alot , so need to restore quickly.....

I am using Aqua PH tester and Tetra NO3 tester (turn Yellow means 0mg/l)

Will wait for 4 days before testing NO3 and PH to see whether it go up....

Thanks Bro Lizzard for the brillant suggestion.....

Day 14 - Without dosing for 4 days, the NO3 has again goes up to 12.5mg/l

Have not tested PH yet? not too sure whether it has gone up after dosing...

[lee]

I also tried Lizzard method with my current tank with stock of fish & LPS.

Using Tetra NO3 kit & Sera PH kit

Day 1 (28/205)

NO3 - 45ppm

Add 3 teaspoons

Water turned very cloudly after 18 hrs & cleared after a day

Day 2

NO3 - 40ppm

Add 2 teaspoons (reduced)

Water turned cloudly after 6 hrs & cleared a few hrs later

Day 3

NO3 - 25ppm

Add 2 teaspoons

Water turned cloudly and cleared much faster

Day 4

NO3 - 20ppm; PH - 8.1

Add 2 teaspoons

Water turned less cloudly and cleared much much faster

Day 5

NO3 - 15ppm; PH - 8.0

Add 1 teaspoon (reduced)

Water no more cloudly

Day 6

NO3 - 10-15ppm; PH - 8.0

Add 1 teaspoons

Add PH buffer

Day 12 (today)

NO3 - 5ppm; PH - 8.0

Add 1 teaspoons

Forget to add buffer

Effect of Fish ............ no effect

Effect of coral .......... Yuma, mushrooms, bubbles, cyrin, xena about the same

.......... Ricordia expanded much more never seen before in my tank

........... Frogspawn expanded less

........... hair algae - still monitoring ..

Will try a few more weeks and will try to maintain PH above 8.

[marble]

Hello all sugar bros'...

Jzt want to ck do u ppl cont to add sugar e nx day when water is still cloudy or wait till e water becomes clear 1st b4 adding another dose of sugar e nx day???

I have added 2 teaspoons to my 3ft tank in e morn n after 12hrs,e water turn cloudy.So was thinking shld i cont with e dosing of sugar tm morn if e water is still cloudy???

[marble]

I also tried Lizzard method with my current tank with stock of fish & LPS.

Using Tetra NO3 kit & Sera PH kit

Day 1 (28/205)

NO3 - 45ppm

Add 3 teaspoons

Water turned very cloudly after 18 hrs & cleared after a day

Day 2

NO3 - 40ppm

Add 2 teaspoons (reduced)

Water turned cloudly after 6 hrs & cleared a few hrs later

Day 3

NO3 - 25ppm

Add 2 teaspoons

Water turned cloudly and cleared much faster

Day 4

NO3 - 20ppm; PH - 8.1

Add 2 teaspoons

Water turned less cloudly and cleared much much faster

Day 5

NO3 - 15ppm; PH - 8.0

Add 1 teaspoon (reduced)

Water no more cloudly

Day 6

NO3 - 10-15ppm; PH - 8.0

Add 1 teaspoons

Add PH buffer

Day 12 (today)

NO3 - 5ppm; PH - 8.0

Add 1 teaspoons

Forget to add buffer

Effect of Fish ............ no effect

Effect of coral .......... Yuma, mushrooms, bubbles, cyrin, xena about the same

.......... Ricordia expanded much more never seen before in my tank

........... Frogspawn expanded less

........... hair algae - still monitoring ..

Will try a few more weeks and will try to maintain PH above 8.

Hi lee,

How is e effect of adding sugar tog with e PH buffer??

Will it prevent PH fm dropping??

Tks..

[lee]

As long as my NO3 stays under 20pmm & PH>8.0 I'm satisfied.

I don't monitor regularly now, just a few days once.

[Travy]

Man... This sugar method sounds interesting. Great reading!

Good job lizard44!!

Been battling with NO3 in my tank long enuff, tired liao. Gonna do what ever it takes.

LS in my 2feet tank includes,

-open brain, zoos, suns, cup, stars, frogspawns, hammers, mushies, yumas, xenias, feather duster worms, a couple of shrimps and a few fishes.

(Woah... quite alot for a 2 feeter hor...)

Running a needle wheel skimmer 24hrs, cooling fan, 4XT5s, no sump but a canister. Tank's abt 6-7mths old.

Gonna start the sugar method tonight.

U guys dose 3 teaspoons for a 4ft, so mine i guess i'll start at 1/2? then after a couple of days increase it to 1. (must give time to adapt ma...)

Will see how it works. CANT WAIT!!!!

[marble]

Man... This sugar method sounds interesting. Great reading!

Good job lizard44!!

Been battling with NO3 in my tank long enuff, tired liao. Gonna do what ever it takes.

LS in my 2feet tank includes,

-open brain, zoos, suns, cup, stars, frogspawns, hammers, mushies, yumas, xenias, feather duster worms, a couple of shrimps and a few fishes.

(Woah... quite alot for a 2 feeter hor...)

Running a needle wheel skimmer 24hrs, cooling fan, 4XT5s, no sump but a canister. Tank's abt 6-7mths old.

Gonna start the sugar method tonight.

U guys dose 3 teaspoons for a 4ft, so mine i guess i'll start at 1/2? then after a couple of days increase it to 1. (must give time to adapt ma...)

Will see how it works. CANT WAIT!!!!

Bro,

Jzt for ur info,my feature dust drop its clown after e sugar dose...

Dun noe if its due to e sugar effect or wat???

My 2 other feature dust looks ok.

Jzt for ur info ....

[lizard44]

hi all SUGAR DADDIES ...

SUGAR-DOSING EXPERIMENT (120g=4ft, REPORT 4, final):

DAY 1-month+1-wk: ph=8.20 (morning) 8.18 (evening) NO3=0 (cheap test) 0.5 (salifert test)

sg remained stable at 1.0220. (nothing to bother)

i have reduced dosage slowly from 1.5 tea-spoon and later to 1 tea-spoon per day.

dosed baking soda at 20g per day until 8.20 and then stopped. the pH reading will go up only after 12 hours, so one must be patient.

my turtleweed had returned to normal.

my clam started to colour up as well. interesting ...

my sponge is growing with more tentacles.

no algae or slimy bact grow on the sandbed.

no adverse effect on the LS.

my most expensive LS: lemonpeel, lemonpeel hybrid, argi are fat and stupid as pigs

Summary of findings:

(1) PRE-DOSING: should have a large nitrate reading (20-60), a skimmer (oxygen supply), sandbed, LR; if possible do not remove any bioballs and/or coral chips (the idea is to have as large a nitrate factory as possible); keep return pump flow rate at about 5-6 times that of the tank per hour, the idea is to have a really great oxygen-rich environment. also, at this rate, there is no fear in changing any mechanical filters wholesale. if one will to notice, sensitive LS will die if the mechanical filters are changed all at once. but, the high flow prevents any localization of toxins from attacking the LS. the great nitrate factory will make the fastest conversion to nitrate and hence, least toxic to the LS.

(2) DOSING TIME: should start with a small dosage at 1 tea-spoon and slowly increase to 3 tea-spoon (max). too fast dosing will cause cloudiness; but will clear in shorter periods. dosing should be daily. the sandbed will be blackened (no harm to LS). pure sugar should be used.

pH will go down TEMPORARILY ...

keep the skimmer on at all times. no need to stop, as oxygen source.

in the past, vodka was used but with limited success. reason i suspect is alcohol is already reduced once by bacteria; vinegar is worst, it is further reduced by bacteria after alcohol. for bacteria to chow at the sugar for energy, it should be kept simple. i.e., we drink glucose drink for immediate energy replacement. same same for the bacteria, they absorb energy easiest by chowing on the pure sugar. to chow alcohol and vinegar for energy, a & v being more stable, the energy needed to break-down and gain sufficient energy by the bacteria is less, therefore the limited success.

sugar dosing will not just benefit the denetrifying bacteria (the ones that convert nitrate hopefully to nitrogen), it is an over-all energy source for all types of bacteria. since sugar is essentially chains of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, i sincerely don't think much on the adverse negative effects, apart from overdosing. so a gradual increasing or decreasing dosing ... will greatly help in the stability of the tank.

to sum, the bacteria will be rather energetic to convert from food/poo to ammonia, then to nitrite, to nitrate and back to nitrogen.

(3) NITRATE=0: once the nitrate is zero, it is time to reduce dosing back to some level where the nitrate is not exactly zero. sugar-dosing is a razor sharp instrument, i.e., any LS that needed some nitrate to survive will lose out to the energetic bacteria in getting at the nitrate.

pH will only drop TEMPORARILY. i.e., once the sugar-dosing is regular, the water in the tank will acquire back its buffering ability, i.e., it will bounce back to 8.00 at least.

use pH buffer or BAKING SODA or WASHING SODA (i never used before) to dose back the pH to say, 8.20. wait at least 12 hours, before continuing the MA BAKER dosing until it hit 8.20. psst ... it will register a drop initially .... hahahahaha ... isn't it fun?

to be fair to the experiment, i have intended to buy from a nice fellow reefer two tests: dKH and calcium test kits to continue with the next experiment: the MA BAKERS ... (pH controls)

This is the last report on SUGAR-DOSING. i do not think there is anymore to add; except, [1x poo/food]=[1x ammonia]=[1x nitrite]=[1x nitrate]=[1x nitrogen]. so, once you are on sugar-dosing, it is like a drug. you can never stop. therefore, dose it at a rate where the nitrate level is exactly the level you need, example, my turtleweed cannot have zero nitrate to be thriving. this is the true beauty of this method, you can control quite accurately the nitrate level you need, regardless of the number of poo machines (LS) in the tank. best ... so go ahead and buy your hearts out on LS ... hahahahahahaha ... of course this is an extremely flamey statement. BUT, frankly, which reefer never over-stock ... now, at least we have a tool to protect further these LS ...

the article i read:

I was watching TV one night and someone was talking about using straw in a pond to ‘feed’ the bacteria and starve the algae. The person being interviewed mentioned that the straw would be broken down into sugars and used by the good bacteria in the pond. The increased bacteria population would then be able to deal with the waste products in the lake before the algae could use them thus starving the algae.

i cannot claim ownership to this method as i did not originate it. maybe i was the first fool who is willing to try it in singapore (maybe not also, maybe there were others but unsung heroes). in time, i think there would be more reefers willing to add to the list of sucessful trials. i would therefore propose that this sugar-dosing method be called the "sugar daddy method".

lizard

[lizard44]

hi bro Goondoo

A point to share. Make sure you are buying Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda-Potash) and not baking powder.

thanks so much. i am proposing to use 100% baking soda from seng shiong (arm&hammer $1.80 per 454g). what do you think?

hi bro klim

Hi Bro Lizard44, pardon me for answering the question for Marble....

thanks so much. i am not chairing the thread. i just start it. i really hope more people can participate and help to make this method safe and of course, real CHEAP. it doesn't really matter who answer, but we do hope that help is always at hand ...

Not sure about adding PH with Sugar, did not try, maybe Bro Lizard44 can advice you.

pH buffer or BAKING SODA can be added together. but, do have patience and wait for 12 hours to see the new pH value.

hi bro marble

4got to ask,when adding sugar,do i off my skimmer??If so for how long??2hr???

just keep it on. no difference. skimmer is a good source of oxygen, so do keep it going.

hi bro Zac

after third day of dosing my nitrate drop more than half already . using selifert test kit it show close to 0 from the top view ,from the side view is 5 reading off the colour indicator. its really amazing .. now for the PH .. i do not have a PH test kit. can i does PH buffer now?

i have purchased an !@#$%^& pin-point pH monitor for this trial. so i suggest you do like-wise. it is not cheap but it is indeed a fun way to learn how to win this race. the pH monitor gives a second-by-second answer to your playing. so it is absolutely that you know what are the important parameters doing. this includes the pH.

hi bro wil_lee76

Good Work Pal and rem...take my suggestions....write an article on these...so i can file it up for future references......

maybe i can record this as a joke? but, frankly, i am not qualified. i am doing this just for fun.

hi bro seafood

after dosing the baking soda (little) (brand: "Bake King" Bicarbonate of soda from NTUC). smell some wired smell (hard to describe, some chemical smell)...now tank is still in cycling stage. The "smell" still exist after 1 day, izit normal???

try arm&hammer, no smell one.

frankly your chemical smell comes from the artificial salt you are mixing. nothing to do with the baking soda.

hi bro laW

been using baking soda when i first started my reef tank.

be careful with it. a little dose will make ur KH go sky high.

yes. i am afraid so. am buying a dKH test kit to check.

hi bro dleecool

So I went to NTUC last nite to buy those packet sugar and I put 2 packs last nite (1 pack 5g), may I ask how long should I continue to dose? Until my NO3 drop to nearly zero? then stop?

at least 8 days. please refer to prof klim's or prof lee's report.

hi bro sunnymau & barnacle & Zac

i think everybody keen to noe the effect on corals. wink.gif

do keeps us update on your xperiment

the effects on corals need to be evaluate on a longer term. hence, time will tell. but, meantime, there has been minimum effect when i kept my nitrate at 0.5.

hi bro lee

I also tried Lizzard method with my current tank with stock of fish & LPS.

you are the man. maybe you want to take over the thread.

hi bro Travy

Been battling with NO3 in my tank long enuff, tired liao. Gonna do what ever it takes.

welcome. slow and steady please. start small doses until you are more happy. 0.5 tea-spoon sounds alright.

hi bro marble

Bro,

Jzt for ur info,my feature dust drop its clown after e sugar dose...

Dun noe if its due to e sugar effect or wat???

My 2 other feature dust looks ok.

Jzt for ur info ...

i think the worm was stressed by the lack of nitrate (maybe phyto-plankton needs nitrate to grow or thrive, so that they in turn can become food for the feather worm). that is the reason why we MUST NEVER aim for ZERO nitrate. try to stay at nitrate 0.5. wow .... fun ... we can now talk like a pro ... controlling the EXACT nitrate level to one decimal point ... wow ... nice. my nitrate 0.5 is achieved at 1 tea-spoon for a 4-footer.

lizard

[lizard44]

hi all MA BAKERS ...

report coming soon ...

lizard

[iori_del]

Thanks for the wonderful test, this will let us who are poor reefer to low the NO3.

Thanks a lot, i just try today and the tank is so cloudy, wonder wat have cause it?

[Travy]

Thanks for the info marble!

Up date!

Day two, The morning after...

Two heads of my hammers seemed to be stressed out, tightly contracted. The rest are fine... Wonder why, maybe i accidentally sprinkle the sugar crystal onto them....

Water slightly cloudy... PH more or less the same. 8.1 ... No3 havent test yet, prob do it after the third day... SO SURPRISE ME! HAHA!

Rest of my stock are doing fine. Worms are normal... realised that my fishes have a sweet tooth too! HAHA!

[lizard44]

hi bro iori_del

this is really unfair. you got such a great review for overstocking. and i kanna sai for having 50x 0.5 inch BIG damsel fishes ... in a 4-footer.

make me really too-lan ... i am now saving up for a boylei, resplendant, flameback, multi-color, Black Tang, goldflake and more lemonpeel hybrids and watch them die in my tank .... hahahahahahaha ...

jokes aside ...

i think this sugar daddy method is going to help you .... have fun ...

hi bro Travy

sugar crystal !!! bro ... me so cheapskate also use powder sugar leh. but, frankly, i hope your hammer will recover ... (i don't think the sugar is dangerous to them) ... seng shiong sell super fine sugar only at 80c.

this method is quite cute. i managed to bullshit my boss. my boss is now dosing BURGER KING sugar (he lagi cheapskate ... use only free sugar ... hope he is not reading this thread) to his KOI POND to get rid of his disgusting green water effect.

lizard

[iori_del]

hi bro iori_del

this is really unfair. you got such a great review for overstocking. and i kanna sai for having 50x 0.5 inch BIG damsel fishes ... in a 4-footer.

make me really too-lan ... i am now saving up for a boylei, resplendant, flameback, multi-color, Black Tang, goldflake and more lemonpeel hybrids and watch them die in my tank .... hahahahahahaha ...

jokes aside ...

i think this sugar daddy method is going to help you .... have fun ...

hi bro Travy

sugar crystal !!! bro ... me so cheapskate also use powder sugar leh. but, frankly, i hope your hammer will recover ... (i don't think the sugar is dangerous to them) ... seng shiong sell super fine sugar only at 80c.

this method is quite cute. i managed to bullshit my boss. my boss is now dosing BURGER KING sugar (he lagi cheapskate ... use only free sugar ... hope he is not reading this thread) to his KOI POND to get rid of his disgusting green water effect.

lizard

hahah where got great review...

just spend a lot on the skimmer mah. so think still ok..

why so many damsel? i hate them , i have none in my 4 ft liao...

How long does the cloudy take, and i was thinking abt the logic tat the water is cloudy.. Is it the bateria are all dead??

[Travy]

Aiyah... I thought sugar mah... eh heng i didnt put in sugar cubes ok!

HAHAHA! Now what i do is dissolve the sugar in the top up water b4 adding it to my tank. Safer la.

"We are on our way to see who can be the cheapskatest of all!!! But i think yur boss wins la...."

Anyway, Day2

Hammers recovering, water no longer cloudy 6hrs after the second dose...

Guess Its a sign to add more.

Will test NO3 Tomorrow! Finally The day of TRUTH!

[lizard44]

hi bro iori_del

why so many damsel? i hate them , i have none in my 4 ft liao...

How long does the cloudy take, and i was thinking abt the logic tat the water is cloudy.. Is it the bateria are all dead??

yes. damn damsels ... i am first time ever in fish tank hobby. never had one in my life. so went cheonging and was told by LFS that damsels damn hardy and never die regardless of water conditions. true enough. my water's salinity was 1.010, none of the damsel died, but all my angels went up lorry.

cloudiness ... clear by the 3rd or 4th day ... quite fast one.

if you do know the answer on why the sugar clouds the water and later not clouds, we all will elevate you to the same rank as Prof klim and Prof lee. you will also be given a chair to sit.

bacteria dead? i am sure not. otherwise how to get nitrate ZERO.

hi bro Travy

Anyway, Day2

Hammers recovering, water no longer cloudy 6hrs after the second dose...

Guess Its a sign to add more.

Will test NO3 Tomorrow! Finally The day of TRUTH!

if you dose only 0.5 tea-spoon per day on your 4-footer, please don't expect much NITRATE reduction. hahahahahaha ... got to be more aggressive leh ...

go for it man ... 3 tea-spoons !!!

psst ... Prof klim tried 3 tea-spoon and Prof lee tried 3 then 2 tea-spoons.

lizard

[Zac]

bro lizard for your great Review.. really glad to be able to have a cheap way of controlling nitrate.. its a good Sugar project... do keep us updated on your projects bro..

[lizard44]

hello all SUGAR DADDIES ...

Nitrate LEVEL for Algae slightly

please do not keep the NITRATE LEVEL at ZERO.

the following data may help you to decide the NITRATE LEVEL to maintain:

some fish can withstand 550

caulerpa spp. at 30-40 will begin to die off

turtleweed at 5 will begin to die off

slimy bacteria (cyano) at 1 will begin to die off

green or white hair algae at 0.5 will begin to die off

nitrate stops cell development in fishes and inverts and even some of the less delicate fishes are uncomfortable when the nitrate in the water rises above 30.

ideally less than 3 for most LPS and LS is a must-have.

i (or for that matter anyone) will update the list whenever there is any thing new.

coming up ...

cheap method to top-up water and water-changing regime.

this is a techno solution ... at least for once i am more high-tech (a physics solution).

lizard

[Venezia]

hi all

this is the result of my use sugar-to-reduce-nitrate experiment

first day

dose 1tsp of fine sugar to mini-dsb (which consists of powder fine sand in a spaghetti sauce bottle 5 inch deep) in refugium

bubbles were observed from the mini dsb

second day

continued same dosage . more bubbles were observed after few hours.

third day

dose 2 tsp of sugar. skimmer stated foaming alot. more bubbles observed from mini-dsb. thin layer of bio-film observed.

fourth day

dose 2tsp. more bubbles observed . tank turn cloudy after a few hours. fishes ok. plate coral, sea fan retracted. skimmer foam like mad. after 1 day , tank clear again. drip kalk , in case pH was low.

fifth to sixth day

dose 2 tsp daily. tank turned cloudy after few hours . lots of bubbles generated from mini-dsb . thick bio-film noticed on neck of bottle. skimmer foaming like mad again, have to empty and clean the collection cup. some whitish film observed on live rock closest to return pump output. plate 's flesh started to receed and dissolve in water. sea fan still not open. but diatoms on glass did not grow back as fast as before. 3 liter of water changed .

all observations were visual , no test kits were used to measure nitrate. this is jus a simple experiment to show whether there is any effect on ls after dosing sugar to reduce nitrates.

conclusion

reduced growth of diatoms and nuisance algae was observed but plate coral and sea fan was affected. Clam and fishes don seem to be affected.

[marble]

Hi Bro lizard44.

If aft 4 days of dosing sugar,e no3 still remains around e same,does it means tat i shld add more teaspoons of sugar??

Have being adding 2teaspoon for 4 days liao.Im using redsea test kit.E color seems to be ard e 20ppm zone.

Anyway,my ph doesnt seems to fall aft 4days of test.Its aways at PH:8.2.

Unlike most of e ppl here whereby they have a great fall in no3 n ph aft e 4th day of dosing.Dun noe if tis is a sign tat im not adding enough sugar??huh??

Shld i start to dose 3teaspoon for my 3ft tank???3 teaspoon shld b max liao for 3ft tank rite??

I have carbon in my sump tank,will it obsorb e sugar tat i put in??huh???

pls advise

[ahkit81]

Hi Bro lizard44.

If aft 4 days of dosing sugar,e no3 still remains around e same,does it means tat i shld add more teaspoons of sugar??

Have being adding 2teaspoon for 4 days liao.Im using redsea test kit.E color seems to be ard e 20ppm zone.

Anyway,my ph doesnt seems to fall aft 4days of test.Its aways at PH:8.2.

Unlike most of e ppl here whereby they have a great fall in no3 n ph aft e 4th day of dosing.Dun noe if tis is a sign tat im not adding enough sugar??huh??

Shld i start to dose 3teaspoon for my 3ft tank???3 teaspoon shld b max liao for 3ft tank rite??

I have carbon in my sump tank,will it obsorb e sugar tat i put in??huh???

pls advise

paiseh im not bro lizard.....but my tank is similar size with urs......3' ...dosing around 1.5 teaspoon into it.....

initial NO3 is > 400 based on sera testkit but after dosing sugar for 7days NO3 drop to 100.... ..then after water changes on the 10th day it stay at 40.........

maybe it will take some time for your tank to show you result...dont worry......it will drop. sooner or later.....

[huanjie]

I have been dosing sugar and now all my cabinet is full of ants !! Help !!

kidding..

nice work bro lizard, hope we can develop a scientific method in sugar dosing fomula in the near future...

Quote ideally less than 3 for most LPS and LS is a must-have.

How did you derive at that ? As I know Many beautiful tanks with LPS(growing) has nitrate much more than that level...