Cheap??? Method of Reefing ...

[ciaolong]

whats the cheapest setup that somebody has done ??? i made a small gold fish tank to a mini reef tank with few corals and 2 baby clown fish for my cousin costed me around 90 bucks (aussie dollars) *the fish from my spawning*

(tank size was 30x 15 x 15 cms

[lizard44]

hi bro Archer82

thanks for the guidance and input. yes. i have up-ed the dosage to 3 tea-spoon too with great results.

Anyway cloudiness of the tank water occured but no LS whatsoever appeared affected.

It cleared like in a day's time.

same here. cloudiness is only an initial thingy. upon regular dosing, there will not be any more cloudiness.

hi bro XPeriment 626

you want real cheapo method of reefing?

Put in one damsel

one damsel where got kick ... i am trying out 40 fishes (15 damsels) at one go. still kicking lah.

but now, i do have a hard time fishing them out.

hi bro mUAr_cHEe

must go DAISO!!!!

heh bro, DAISO is still quite X too. me go to $1 shop ONLY to get my tub.

btw, never see you fighting for a place in the pygmy angel game !?!

hi bro somebody

so the addition of sugar results in a drop in pH? hmm... so how? how to deal with the drop in pH? will the dosage of pH buffer work?

no use dosing pH buffers. it wouldn't improve the situation. further, one #$%^@* pH buffer ranges from $6 to $44. pour one time, all finished. next day, drop again.

this is the next problem i will be tackling. wish me luck. if you do have a good idea. let me know. needed all the blessings towards creating a cheapo environment for my #$&%!@ blooming expensive fishes.

hi bro seamonkee

Did u apply the proper husbandry on the vodka method?

It is VERY VERY Important.... pls follow these steps accordingly.... I'm serious!!!

i tried your method at the devil's bar. wow, suddenly i saw so many flame angels coming towards me. red ones with black stripes ... black ones with red stripes ... orange ones with white stripes even ... nice. thanks a million, bro, for the greeaat shot.

hi bro ciaolong

whats the cheapest setup that somebody has done ???

hahahahaha .... the cheapest setup is "don't setup" ...

kidding ...

my sugar-dosing experiment (4-footer=120g) (REPORT 2):

day 20: ph=7.88 NO3=0 (cheap test) 1 (salifert test)

sg remained stable at 1.0215. (nothing to bother)

since 14th day, i have again increased the dosage to 3 tea-spoon per day, following the suggestion of bro Archer82.

pH continues to trend downwards.

an amazing 20th day. the NO3 tests from both cheap and expensive kits read near zero. i can't believe that. looks like every time after i fed my fishes, i also proceed to "feed" the bacteria sugar. the bacteria reward my kindness by chomping up all my nitrates. as of today, i have upgraded my table sugar to ultra fine sugar from seng shiong. very cheap per pack, $0.80 only. wifey complained why i used up all her coffee sugar. so have to buy my own sugar ... cannot "borrow" ...

the sand bed showed numerous bubbles on its side. since no algae grew on the sand bed surface, i do hope it is indeed nitrogen.

due to the great result, i will continue to dose at 3 tea-spoon per day and see if i still get ZERO nitrate readings over the next few weeks, before i do some weaning off.

as a reward, i have gotten myself an "ugly" angel at $38, 0.5 inch only. feeding already ...

next step:

since NO3 looks likely to be licked in due time, i will now try my luck on improving the sliding pH.

since i have bought a 100% baking soda from seng shiong, i decided to read up their website. this is what i found:

What is the deal with ARM & HAMMER® Baking Soda and pH?

As we mentioned, baking soda helps regulate pH—keeping a substance neither too acidic (sour tasting), nor too alkaline. Think of pH as a see-saw, with acidic pH tilting one way, alkaline pH tilting the other way, and neutral pH when the see-saw is level. When ARM & HAMMER® Baking Soda comes in contact with either an acidic or an alkaline substance, it's natural effect is to neutralize that extreme pH - tilting the see- saw back toward level. And beyond that, baking soda has the capability to resist further changes in the pH balance - keep the see-saw level--this is called buffering.

So what's the big deal? Well for us, this neutralizing and buffering capability is the science behind how our ARM & HAMMER® Baking Soda is so effective for so many uses. Whether it's neutralizing acidic (sour tasting) smells in your refrigerator to keep milk from tasting like last nights dinner, or maintaining a neutral pH in your laundry water so your detergent can work best, or stabilizing your pool water pH to keep it clear, it's this science that explains how ARM & HAMMER® Baking Soda can do it all!

i intend to try out the baking soda and calcium thingy and see how they are related to one another and how to maintain pH as well as calcium concentration in the tank.

have fun ...

lizard

[Lucifer]

after dosing vodka for so many days....i find dat it works very well too.. i tink i will try the sugar method since u haf proven it to b successful..but will baking soda help to bring up the PH???and how much do i need to dose to attain the proper level???

[klim]

Great job bro lizard44, with your "invention", many bro here can start reefing with low cost, not no cost....

This will help us to upkeep our tank with more corals and fish, rather than buying all those expensive additives....

Keep up the good work and keep us posted with your invention. I will start dosing my tank with sugar....

Cheers...)

[HypoC]

Hey big bros out here,

I'm very excited too with what bro lizard44 has come up with but i got just 1 question, er will this method work if I do not have a DSB? I only got 2.5 inches of sand.. Because from what I gather, we a re dosing to "feed" the anaerobic bacteria right?

Thanks in advance

[jOsHiE]

Did u apply the proper husbandry on the vodka method?

It is VERY VERY Important.... pls follow these steps accordingly.... I'm serious!!!

1) Take a 10ml measuring bottle

2) Pour 3ml of vodka in.... taste two gulpfuls first from bottle to ensure vodka has not turned bad....

3) Pour another 3ml of vodka in measuring bottle... Swirl the bottle and at the same time, take another two gulps from the bottle to ensure vodka's quality... U dun want to pour bad stuff into ur lovely tank....

4) To be sure esp if u have bought ur vodka from 7-11, take another gulp to ensure that the mischevious 7-11 counter staff has not replaced it with water...

5) At this time, you hold out the 6ml of measuring bottle in hand and shout out loud..... "To hell with you fishes with your nitrate problems!!!" and bottoms up that 6ml of vodka....

The above procedure will only work for those taking the vodka approach to solving nitrate problems..... after 5mins, u will see nice "ripples" in ur tank and ur fishes appears more colourful with rainbow hues.... definitely appearing much healthier...

volka rasberry taste cananot??

[klim]

My sand bed is 2 inch only...

Just measured my NO3 = >25mg/l<50mg/l...SW = 1.022

put 3 spoons of sugar to test water...hope this help

[lizard44]

thx bro Lucifer

after dosing vodka for so many days....i find dat it works very well too.. i tink i will try the sugar method since u haf proven it to b successful..but will baking soda help to bring up the PH???and how much do i need to dose to attain the proper level???

thanks bro for the nice experiment. it showed that we both took different paths but achieve the same result. the best news is of course the LS were super active during their nightly vodka drinking cap or my sugar-water night-snacks.

my initial guess is this:

i have many poo machines in my tank. they are lemonpeel, yellow tang, ugly angel (new), coral beauty, flame angel, percula pairs (6, hahahahahaha), and many damsels. together they gave me a reading of about NO3 at 40 (before dosing). after my dosing of sugar (3 tea-spoon per day), the NO3 drops to near ZERO. it is like although i have fed my fishes. they don't have a shit hole to let go dirt. nice ...

the simple math goes like this?: one portion of food --> one portion of ammonia --> one portion of nitrite --> one portion of nitrate --> (add one portion of sugar) --> one portion of nitrogen (bubbled off) --> nitrogen cycle completes, no more trouble

once my readings continues to register ZERO for a few weeks. i am going to try to wean off sugar and see if the NO3 comes back. i would like to determine the exact one portion of sugar for my tank and keep it there.

actually i have a dream (martin luther): i thought we could cycle our new tank not only with dead prawns but also sugar .... hahahahaha ... cut the cycling to 7 days !?! actually i have a confession to make: i had never changed any water since day 1 (2 months back).

as for baking soda, it is only a pH buffer, i.e., it will bring DOWN the pH to 7.0 !!!! if you are higher than 7.0. it will bring up the pH to 7.0 if you are too acidic. this is the true meaning of pH buffer. like zen, baking soda will bring BALANCE to the system BUT at 7.0 (please read my previous note on the www.armhammer.com web-site).

therefore, baking soda alone cannot be used to bring up pH if your pH is already higher than 7.0. i will try first and feedback ... don't worry ... you are my top-ally-in-crime in this game.

thx bro klim

... keep us posted with your invention. I will start dosing my tank with sugar....

i believe it is quite safe. just start the sugar drug slowly. as there will be some initial clouding ... after that no more oredi ...

thanks for the kind words. i also noticed that many people i met at LFS loves to overstock so do i so better find a way to remove their poo efficiently.

thx bro HypoC

but i got just 1 question, er will this method work if I do not have a DSB? I only got 2.5 inches of sand.. Because from what I gather, we a re dosing to "feed" the anaerobic bacteria right?

my DSB is only 3-4 inch and my blackness starts just beneath the surface and lots of bubble holes. so i don't suspect thickness of DSB has any real bearing. please do not forget, we have large amount of LR which are meant for NNR too. the sugar is meant to suppliment their energy level in doing their good NNR job.

just go ahead and have fun ... quite safe for me and bro Lucifer oredi.

thx bro jOsHiE

volka rasberry taste cananot??

let me check out its chemical property. if can, i will give my people a rasberry treat too. don't wish to ill-treat my bacteria. whole day plain vanilla also no shiok lah ... must have some flavour in their food source ...

lizard

[Reefbum]

Bro lizard, I fully support you in your creative ways of making this hobby as painless(especially in the pocket) as possible.I would like to try adding sugar but right now I am trying out a skimmerless system.Do I need to put the skimmer back on? Thks in advance.

[zorden]

let me check out its chemical property. if can, i will give my people a rasberry treat too. don't wish to ill-treat my bacteria. whole day plain vanilla also no shiok lah ... must have some flavour in their food source ...

can we try using coke.

its cabonated sugared drink.

F&N will be happy to hear that

[jOsHiE]

hmm i dose sugar like yesterday throw one packet of sugar mix wit salt water...this morning wake up wah tank cloudy....any expert here can tell me wat when wrong???

[Ekia]

hmm i dose sugar like yesterday throw one packet of sugar mix wit salt water...this morning wake up wah tank cloudy....any expert here can tell me wat when wrong???

Sudden increased in bacterias..better check your oxygen level

[Ekia]

lizard44: the baking soda u dosed is sodium bi-carbonate? It's meant more to increase the alkalinity of your system rather than to increase/decrease pH. Check your kH if u have been dosing too much..

[lizard44]

oops bros

... hahahahahaha ... suddenly so busy ... i will do my best then ...

but knowing that we are dealing with living things here ... i will do my best lah ...

hi bro Reefbum

I would like to try adding sugar but right now I am trying out a skimmerless system.Do I need to put the skimmer back on?

skimmer is a must have (i have super stinky skimmate, i think you better have one) ... please add it in ... because as bro ekia had said the sugar dosing will drop the oxygen level of the tank very very fast. please work the skimmer to have a cheap means of supplying oxygen. also if there is excess sugar, i.e., not consumed by the bacteria, it will be skimmed out by the skimmer (like waking up early morning, haven't brush the teeth, stinky mouth like that, i.e., the sugar can decayed too!). when i dose my sugar, i cheated. i let the skimmer rest for about 2 hours. feeding sugar is almost like feeding planktonic food to corals. have to allow the stupid bacteria to get at it. the bacteria either produce something for the skimmer to skim out or it bubbled through as nitrogen gaseous products (i don't know, i just know my nitrate can be made this way to super low).

hi bro zorden

can we try using coke.

its carbonated sugared drink.

correct me if i am wrong: carbonated as in compressed CO2 is acidic in nature, it will drop your pH real fast. better stick to plain vanilla like pure sugar first.

hi bro jOsHiE

hmm i dose sugar like yesterday throw one packet of sugar mix wit salt water...this morning wake up wah tank cloudy....any expert here can tell me wat when wrong???

got LR and/or sand ? then don't worry. if not, please add them. switch on the skimmer. also as mentioned in previous text, it will cloud the water for a while. once the dosing is regular, the cloudiness will go away.

hi bro Lucifer

just one thing: i am trying out using calcium-based chemicals to add to the tank. the calcium will raise the pH super fast. i will then use baking soda or CO2 to reduce it back to 8.3. this way i hope to upkeep my ph at 8.3.

currently i have a !@#$%%^^ expensive pin-point pH monitor so my readings for the experiment should be quite accurately assessed as well as able to give second-by-second, minute-by-minute, blow-by-blow feedback to our cute-cute tests.

one more thing i learnt too: dosing karwasser is a waste of time. when i dissolve the karwasser using plain water (pH 7.+++). it dissolves super well. i then dosed it to the tank. the pH rises rapidly. shiok .... only for less than half a day. the !@#$%^& karwasser reprecipitated back to chalk. the pH went back down to the good old reading.

dosing expensive pH buffer gives a slightly better result. but, it will again slide after a day or two.

let's us and all the rest of the bros here find a cure to this ...

have fun ...

lizard

[Marineman]

during my heady days ten years ago, (1995+) being young and bull-headed, i had by mistake invested in many properties. the property bubble finally burst in 1997. since that time to now, i was on the brink of bankruptcy. this period i can assure you bros out there don't try it, it is not funny. every single banks in singapore took turns to be my nightmares nightly. it was only the beginning of this year that i more or less freed myself from this threat. as a humble form of celebration

Good to know that but looks like you are going about the same way with your fish hobby, like getting AT, Clams, Chevrons etc....livestock some of which are not easy to maintain and cost quite a bit of money too.

unfortunately, the more i read about this hobby, the more i realised i don't yet know. so it is going to be a long long journey towards responsible reefing.

Good that you have realised this before you waste more money. Good luck to you and your hobby.

[klim]

Bro lizard44, I have just added 3 teaspoon of sugar on Sunday afternoon, I was woken by my family this morning at 6.30am, telling me that my tank is so cloudy that we could not see the fish....almost worry to death for those LS.......but after reading tat this will happened (did not know why it took so long to take effect..the cloudiness)...now at this current time, the water is starting to clear

Should I continue to dose 3 teaspoon or lessen? Will the cloudiness come back? How long should I do it, since my NO3 reading is 25mg/l?

Appreciate your advice.

[lizard44]

thx bro Marineman

Good to know that but looks like you are going about the same way with your fish hobby, like getting AT, Clams, Chevrons etc....livestock some of which are not easy to maintain and cost quite a bit of money too.

this hobby different class from my previous property hobby. that one costs me nightmares at minus $3.2m at one time. now not so bad, only at minus $1.8m. so i just celebrate loh. the banks don't dare to sue me bankrupt now because i have being faithful in clearing my debts for 9 years oredi ... now that the economy has more or less recovered. the aunties in HK has also been playing both the shares and stock markets. soon it will be our turn to behave like-wise. that time, i will clear off my rubbishes and run away ... shiok ... let someone else enjoy the roller-coaster ride.

thx bro klim

Bro lizard44, I have just added 3 teaspoon of sugar on Sunday afternoon, I was woken by my family this morning at 6.30am, telling me that my tank is so cloudy that we could not see the fish....almost worry to death for those LS...but after reading tat this will happened (did not know why it took so long to take effect..the cloudiness)...now at this current time, the water is starting to clear

Should I continue to dose 3 teaspoon or lessen? Will the cloudiness come back? How long should I do it, since my NO3 reading is 25mg/l?

please don't panic. the cloudiness will clear once the bacteria has munched the sugar. keep the skimmer running too as it will oxydize the water (cheaply). if yours is also a 4-footer, go for it then. otherwise, reduce it to one tea-spoon and start over.

continuing dosing, your cloudiness will be on and off for the next 3 days max. after that, no more cloudiness, the bacteria are happily waiting for your next sugar-water night-snack.

btw, my fishes also like the sugary thingy. they munch at them too ... like us, we eat rice so that we can convert rice to sugar for energy lah ...

as said: your skimmate will be stinky, but it has no bad side effects. just clean it more diligently for good further extraction.

your pH will drop by 0.1 per day (hahahahahahaha ... scary? ) (Lucifer and i and others are trying hard to find a solution)

the solution should be quite close for me.

lizard

[jOsHiE]

even wit high kh they will be a drop in PH???? hmm wats the method now u are doing to maintain your ph at 8.1??? if i stop dosing will my PH return to normal????

[jOsHiE]

my sandbed have indeed turn black muhaha just two day of dosing sugar thats how fast the bateria growss.... well but not adding anymore sugar cos it reduce my PH.... so any updates lizard to deal wit the prob??? btw u said about trying to stop the dosing of sugar water and then seeing whether does your no3 still remain o ppm right??? so u tried it already??? updates we need updates muhahaa!!!!!!

[ahkit81]

added in sugar...the tank go blur(3rd day already).......been adding sugar for the past 3 days...but never see my sand bed goes black...hhmmm weird....dosing too much sugar? my tank is 36"x18"x12" added in 1 teaspoon.....

[djviper]

how much sugar to add? no. of teaspoon per ?? gallon

[Lucifer]

hey bro lizard44.....hows ur 2nd stage experiment going on???

[klim]

I have added 3 teaspoon for 4ft tank...NO3 from previous 25mg/l go down after 4 days to 12.5mg/l...hope to get better result next week.

Thanks bro Lizard44 for your advice.

Cheers!

[Zac]

hi i too am willing to give dosing sugar a try.. initially when i started out i have been dosing volka on a daily basis. and on matter how much i increase my dosage i still couldnt get any better results. hope this sugar dosing will work for me . will post my result soon.

[lizard44]

hello all sugar daddies

my 3rd SUGAR-DOSING report will be out tomorrow ...

so please bear with me

my pH buffering experiment (report 1):

before i start, let me do some warm-up exercises (otherwise i will get strains on my back, getting too old lah ):

What is pH?

The concept of pH in a seawater application has a variety of different definitions. In the system used by most aquarists:

pH is simply a measure of the hydrogen ions (H+; aka protons) in solution. Hydrogen ions in seawater are partly free (well, not really free but attached only to water molecules in complexes such as H3O+) and partly complexed to other ions.

In a sense, all that most aquarists need to know is that pH is a measure of the hydrogen ions in solution, and that the scale is logarithmic. That is, at pH 6 there is 10 times as much H+ as at pH 7, and that at pH 6 there is 100 times as much H+ as at pH 8. Consequently, a small change in pH can mean a big change in the concentration of H+ in the water!

Why monitor pH?

There are several reasons why one would want to monitor pH in marine aquaria.

One is that aquatic organisms only thrive in a particular pH range. This range certainly varies from organism to organism, and it is not easy to justify a claim that any particular range is “optimal” for an aquarium with many species. Even natural seawater (pH = 8.0 to 8.3) isn’t going to be optimal for every creature living in it, but it was recognized more than eighty years ago that moving away from the pH of natural seawater (down to 7.3, for example) is stressful to fish.

Additionally, the effect of pH on organisms can be direct, or indirect. For example, the toxicity of metals such as copper and nickel is known to depend on pH for some of the organisms present in our tanks (such as mysids and amphipods). Consequently, the ranges of pH that are acceptable in one tank may be different in other tanks, even for the same organisms.

Nevertheless, there are some fundamental processes taking place in many marine organisms that are substantially impacted by changes in pH. One of these is calcification, and it is known that calcification in corals is dependent on pH, with it dropping as the pH is lowered.

Acceptable pH Range

The acceptable pH range for reef tanks is an opinion rather than a clearly delineated fact, and will certainly vary based on who is providing the opinion. This range may also be quite different than the “optimal” range. Justifying what is optimal, however, is much more problematic than that which is simply acceptable, and we will focus on the latter. As a goal, I’d suggest that the pH of natural seawater, about 8.2, is appropriate, but tanks can clearly operate in a wider range of pH values. In my opinion, the pH range from 7.8 to 8.5 is an acceptable range for reef tanks, with several caveats. These are:

That the alkalinity is at least 2.5 meq/L, and preferably higher at the lower pH end of this range. In part, this statement is based on the fact that many reef tanks operate quite effectively in the pH 7.8 to 8.0 range, but that most of the best examples of these types of tanks incorporate calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactors that, while tending to lower the pH, keep the carbonate alkalinity fairly high (at or above 3 meq/L.). In this case, any problems associated with calcification at these lower pH values may be offset by the higher alkalinity.

That the calcium level is at least 400 ppm. Calcification becomes more difficult as the pH is lowered, and it also becomes more difficult as the calcium level is lowered. It would not be desirable to push all of the extremes of pH, alkalinity, and calcium at the same time. So if the pH is on the low side and cannot be easily changed (such as in a tank with a CaCO3/CO2 reactor), at least make sure that the calcium level is acceptable (~400-450 ppm).

Likewise, one of the problems at higher pH (above 8.2, but getting progressively more problematic with each incremental rise) is the abiotic precipitation of calcium carbonate (resulting in a drop in calcium and alkalinity, and the clogging of heaters and pump impellers). If you are going to push the pH to 8.4 or higher (as often happens in a tank using limewater), make sure that both the calcium and alkalinity levels are suitably maintained (that is, neither too low, inhibiting biological calcification, nor too high, causing excessive abiotic precipitation on equipment).

Low pH Problems

As described above, low pH problems are those where the pH is below 7.8. That is, where the daily pH low drops below 7.8. Of course, if the pH hits 7.9 you may still want to raise it, but the need is not so immediate. There are three key things that commonly result in low pH, and the solution to each of them is different. Of course, there’s nothing to prevent a tank from having all three problems!

<1> Low pH due to CaCO3/CO2 Reactors

The most common cause of low pH in a reef tank is the use of a calcium carbonate/carbon dioxide reactor. These reactors use acidic carbon dioxide to dissolve calcium carbonate, and the effect is to deliver a substantial but transient amount of acid to the tank. Ideally, the carbon dioxide is blown back off of the tank after it has been used to dissolve the CaCO3. In reality, however, this process does not go to completion, and CaCO3/CO2 reactor tanks almost always run at the low pH end of the spectrum.

An approach, and probably the most successful, is to combine the CaCO3/CO2 reactor with another alkalinity supplementation scheme that raises pH. The most useful method in this application is limewater. In this situation, the limewater is not being used to provide large amounts of calcium or alkalinity, but to soak up some of the excess CO2, and thereby raise the pH. The amount of limewater needed is not as large as for full maintenance of calcium and alkalinity. You can also put the limewater additions on a timer to add it only at night and early morning when the daily pH lows are most likely to be problematic. The limewater addition could also be on a pH controller, so that it is only added when the pH gets unusually low (such as below pH 7.8 or so).

<2> Low pH Due to Low Alkalinity

Low alkalinity can also lead to low pH. For example, if alkalinity is not supplemented as fast as it is removed by calcification, the pH will likely drop. This drop will happen with all alkalinity supplementation schemes, but will be most observable using schemes that do not themselves raise pH (like CaCO3/CO2 reactors or bicarbonate). In this situation, the obvious solution is to add more alkalinity in some fashion.

<3> Excessive carbon sources

If excessive volka, vinegar or other organic acid were the cause of a pH drop. The acetate that resulted from the vinegar (acetic acid) will be oxidized to CO2 and OH-. The net effect is that the pH and alkalinity will rise. So in this case, err on the side of less alkalinity supplementation (maybe even nothing) because it will resolve itself before too long. If you add a ton of alkalinity supplement to stabilize things, you may find that the pH and/or alkalinity later creep higher than you want.

warning to all SUGAR DADDIES here: please do understand part <3>.

trial 1

i have not intended to solve calcium dosing issues in this trial. i just wanted only to play with pH buffering at 8.2.

i have bought a 1-kg kalkwasser at $20 (not so bad, i think the amount can last my life-time).

Limewater (also known by the German term kalkwasser) has been used very successfully by aquarists for a number of years, and it is the system that I use on my tank. It is comprised of an aqueous solution of calcium and hydroxide ions that can be made by dissolving either quicklime (calcium oxide, CaO) or lime (calcium hydroxide, Ca(OH)2). The only inherent difference between the two is that if you add a molecule of water to quicklime, you get lime, and that a great quantity of heat can be generated when that happens.

i intend to dose 1 tea-spoon of kalkwasser every two days.

i have also made a drip bottle for the purpose.

once i can have some results, baking soda and epsom salt will also be added as part of the trial.

the limewater is intended to raise pH quickly.

the baking soda is to provide effective pH buffering.

epsom salt is to maintain some magnesium to prevent too much precipitation of chalk due to tank's high pH.

poor poor lizard