Organism grown on bio ball

[kareen]

I have heard that bio balls in the filter system => nitrate factory...... knowing this fact, I always make a point to rinse my bioball in the sump after 2/3 months of time frame. Recently, I begining to wonder whether should I wash it or not.

Reason, I saw plenty of little critters living in between the space of bio balls and when I took out the bioballs, there are some sponges like organism growing there as well (refer to attachment). After I rinse my bioballs gently, I use a net to sieve the water and the net caught many little critters that has been washed off during the rinse!

If there are so many little critters and sponges like organism living in the bioball, are the bioballs still a nitrate factory? Any comments are welcome.

[blueheaven]

I've got them too....on my dursos

[kareen]

yeah.... I also got some there too but there are plenty of it in the bioballs.... (See those few bioballs that I picked up)

If I am not wrong, sponge organism are filter feeder and the fact that they grown there means that there are food for them. In another words, they (sponges like organism and the little critters I seen) 'clean' up all the leftover food. If that is the case, there will not be any food left rottening!

[blueheaven]

That's part of the concept for a cryptic refugium (setting up soon)

But the particulate matter that the sponges and tunicates take in is not as substantial than a good protein skimmer

The main concern about bioballs are them trapping detritus which in tuen break down into nutrients. And although bioballs ment for bacterial colonisation, I do not think that it is a good place for infauna to reproduce and the detritus just stays there and break down

[kareen]

hm... I thought everything will somehow 'balance' itself.... eg. x amount of leftover will eventually produce enough little critters to clean it off.... BTW, I don't know what it is, they look a bit like small shrimps.

what is cryptic refugium? Care to explain a bit more or direct some links for me to read......

[riot]

If your bioball is fully submerged and not exposed to high source of oxygen, you should not end up with a nitrate factory. Most bioballs are used in wet dry systems, where water is trickled thru the media. This speeds up nitrate production. If it is underwater fully, then the bacteria nitrate conversion is limited. Your organsm looks ok to me. Just be wary of off chance of die offs

[kareen]

If your bioball is fully submerged and not exposed to high source of oxygen, you should not end up with a nitrate factory. Most bioballs are used in wet dry systems, where water is trickled thru the media. This speeds up nitrate production. If it is underwater fully, then the bacteria nitrate conversion is limited. Your organsm looks ok to me. Just be wary of off chance of die offs

Huh? I don't quite understand here.... Bioballs = nitrate factory only when they are exposed to air?

Also, what are you referring to about the die offs? Those organisms/little critters growing on the bioballs?

[riot]

As long as your bio balls are fully submerged, and you are not using a trickle system, dont worry about the nitrates.

If you have a lot of organisms in the bioballs, just take note that a lot of living matter is there. DOnt leave them dry and then dump the whole lot back into the sump. You will introduce dead matter into your system and the skimmer might not cope.

Hope this helps

[pegasus1010]

is bio balls supposed to work submerged?

I heard likewise. kindly enlighten thanks.

[ryz]

as long as the bioballs dun trap detritus and solid waste it should not be a nitrate factory. You should utilise Filter wool to filter off any large organic particles from the water before allowing the water to pass thru the bioballs. But of course this filter wool has to be raised above the water level otherwise you're not achieving anything.

The concept behind this is that, the solid organic particles dun get to stay in the water and rot thus no nitrate will accumulate in the water.

I'm not too sure abt riot's views though. if you're talking about creating anaerobic conditions, submerging it in the water is useless. There is a high level of dissolved oxygen in the water thus it is still aerobic. This is the reason why DSBs and Plenums are required to be set up for NNR.

[riot]

Some put into their sump just to provide surfaces for bacteria to colonize. Sort of like when placed into cannister filters.

I presume from kareen's growth that she must have placed them submerged. Dont think the life can subsist if she placed them in a conventional trickle dry.

[kareen]

I do have one third of the bio balls expose to the air and constantly weted by the spining rain bar while the rest is submerged in water.....

If you have a lot of organisms in the bioballs, just take note that a lot of living matter is there. DOnt leave them dry and then dump the whole lot back into the sump. You will introduce dead matter into your system and the skimmer might not cope.

Oh no..... I just did that while rinsing...... There is a saying like don't do anything and nothing will go wrong..... at least for my case.

[kareen]

ok.... what is the verdict, shi fu? Base on the ryz's idea of bioballs=nitrate factory is when there are trap detritus and solid waste. For my case, if there are so many little critters and sponges like organism in my bio balls, it should be okay to left bioballs alone....

[riot]

Actually, if you have lots of live rock in your tank, you dont really need the bioballs. Ryz is correct in saying that they tend to trap detritus, which tends to rot and pollute the system. You are using it as a traditional trickle system, which exploits the high surface area of the bioball (they are designed to provide max room for baceteria to colonize). Its a great idea, but the bioballs tend to convert nitrites to nitrates too effectively, leaving no other process to convert out your nitrates.

That is the trickle system I was referring to, wetted by the spinning bar. The bacteria is directly exposed to air, speeding up the nitrification process tremendously.

But really, measure the water quality in your tank. If its all ok, then no worries. If you rinsed the bioballs, most of the material should have washed off, so dont worry.

[blueheaven]

As I mentioned, those critters are not able to make any substantial improvments unless you have a dedicated place to let them thrive.

I'm not sure about the submerged/trickle views but as long as bioballs trap detritus and left there un cleaned, it will still become a nitrate factory.

IMO, why go through all the trouble when your main goal is to culture bacteria which you can achieve with sand?

[kareen]

critters are not able to make any substantial improvments unless you have a dedicated place to let them thrive

What is the dedicated place for them to thrive? Isn't the space in between the bioballs with plenty of food around not a heaven to them?

From the info I gather here, the answer is something like : avoid having the bioballs exposed to the air 'cos that region will not have the growth of organisms to clean up the waste. Is that right, riot?

But really, measure the water quality in your tank. If its all ok, then no worries. If you rinsed the bioballs, most of the material should have washed off, so dont worry.

When I rinse the bioballs, I am rinsing the critters away also leh..... that's why I start this topic.

Lastly, my system is pretty kiasu type.... I don't know what it is called..... I should have about 100kg of live rocks and 3 inches of grade 0 sand in display tank couple with the wet/dry trickle filter. After the trickle filter is 1 feet of macro algae refuguim before returning to the display tank.

What I observe is that those shrimps like critters tends to gather in my bioball compartment. They are 'large' about half a cm and in the refugium area is copper pods, the smaller ones.

[blueheaven]

The dedicated setup is the cryptic refugium i have been talking about

Read more about it at www.dynamicecomorphology.com

The critters do not "clean-up" whatever dirt there is but only take in the particulate that is suspended in the water column

And its not that bioballs exposed to air is not good as there is no critters but because of the fact that due to the oxygen content in the air, aerobic bacteria colonise on the bioballs and nitrification starts. If you want "cleaners", then you should look at the infauna and not sponges

[junyong84]

[riot]

If there are so many little critters and sponges like organism living in the bioball, are the bioballs still a nitrate factory? Any comments are welcome.

Hi Kareen,

sorry for making all this so confusing.

Lets go back to the first question and try to answer it from there.

Its not the critters that make the bioball a nitrate factory, its their use that makes them so. Bioballs tend to trap detritus, which rots. Also, the trickle or wet dry system of filtration exposes the bacteria on the bioball to excellent conditions to work- wet, and high exposure to air. You mentioned that 1/3 of the bioballs are exposed to the air in the sump. I presume that the spray bar keeps them moist. Here, the bacteria converts nitrites to nitrates. Wet drys are highly effective in this manner, but there is no system to utilize the nitrates produced, so you are left with a huge nitrate problem. Hence, a nitrate factory. However, you did mention a macro algae growout. That might mean a good source of nitrate uptake in your system- so you might not have a problem. Measure your water and find out if you do have a nitrate problem. If not, then the bioballs are not much of an issue. It does its work, and your macro algae completes the process.

If you do have a nitrate problem, then my suspicions will be cast on the bioballs. HAving a wide variety of life on the bioball does not mean that its potential as a nitrate factory is limited.

Phew!

Hope this helps

[kareen]

The dedicated setup is the cryptic refugium i have been talking about

Read more about it at www.dynamicecomorphology.com

The critters do not "clean-up" whatever dirt there is but only take in the particulate that is suspended in the water column

And its not that bioballs exposed to air is not good as there is no critters but because of the fact that due to the oxygen content in the air, aerobic bacteria colonise on the bioballs and nitrification starts. If you want "cleaners", then you should look at the infauna and not sponges

ok....I will take some time to disgest the information from the site..... Can u explain in simple words what are the major 'component' of a cryptic refugium?

The fact that there are so many living organism in the submerged bioballs should indicate something to us, right? In my opinion, there must be food for them and if I leave them alone (do not rinse the bioballs periodically), maybe there will be a boom and things might take care of themselves..... (u know what I mean nature eco system)

[kareen]

Its not the critters that make the bioball a nitrate factory, its their use that makes them so. Bioballs tend to trap detritus, which rots. Also, the trickle or wet dry system of filtration exposes the bacteria on the bioball to excellent conditions to work- wet, and high exposure to air. You mentioned that 1/3 of the bioballs are exposed to the air in the sump. I presume that the spray bar keeps them moist. Here, the bacteria converts nitrites to nitrates. Wet drys are highly effective in this manner, but there is no system to utilize the nitrates produced, so you are left with a huge nitrate problem. Hence, a nitrate factory. However, you did mention a macro algae growout. That might mean a good source of nitrate uptake in your system- so you might not have a problem. Measure your water and find out if you do have a nitrate problem. If not, then the bioballs are not much of an issue. It does its work, and your macro algae completes the process.

If you do have a nitrate problem, then my suspicions will be cast on the bioballs. HAving a wide variety of life on the bioball does not mean that its potential as a nitrate factory is limited.

To be frank, my nitrate reading is never 0.... It is always hovering around 20 to 80ppm, depending how often I do partial water change....

Riot, according to what you say, if I limited the exposed bioballs, the nitrate factory will be limited. The detritus will be taken care of when trapped in the submerged bioballs due to those critters......

[kareen]

Does cryptic refugium means that a space in the tank where there is no light for the zooplanktons grow out?

If that is the case, that explain why the shrimp like critter only gather in my bioballs compartment.... 'cos I covered the bioballs compartment to prevent unsighty algae growout I have seen on mature tanks

[blueheaven]

I know what you are thinking

You might be thinking that since there is organism growth on the bioballs, there must be food for them and they will somehow balance out right?

The fact that they grow there is due to several factors and yes, food is one factor. But as on the part that they balance out themselves, its not quite possible as they are not able to reproduce fast enough or be in numbers to make a substantial impact.

In a cryptic refugium, no light is introduced and sponges, tunicates, infauna is allowed to thrive in there. And the whole system is also to cleanse the water of particulate matter, somewhat like a skimmer but the only difference is that it adds diversity to your system.

[kareen]

I know what you are thinking

You might be thinking that since there is organism growth on the bioballs, there must be food for them and they will somehow balance out right?

The fact that they grow there is due to several factors and yes, food is one factor. But as on the part that they balance out themselves, its not quite possible as they are not able to reproduce fast enough or be in numbers to make a substantial impact.

In a cryptic refugium, no light is introduced and sponges, tunicates, infauna is allowed to thrive in there. And the whole system is also to cleanse the water of particulate matter, somewhat like a skimmer but the only difference is that it adds diversity to your system.

So what is the important element for a successful cryptic refugium? Pls advise

Also, I want to ask some stupid questions that is still bugging me.....

1) When bioballs is submerged in water, do they still function as in convert waste into nitrate? Or they have to be above water and constantly being wet....

2) Assume that ALL the debris deposits on submerged bioballs is being taken care by the critters living there, will the bioballs still a nitrate factory?

3) Or is it the action of converting harmful substances in water to nitrate that is the culprit? If that is the case, having nitrate in water is better, right?

Any Shi Fu here pls enlighten me why bioball is crowned nitrate factory.

[riot]

Riot, according to what you say, if I limited the exposed bioballs, the nitrate factory will be limited. The detritus will be taken care of when trapped in the submerged bioballs due to those critters......

Yes, the wet dry system might be fueling your nitrate levels.

The critters or pods dont really consume as much detritus as you would like. They are awfully small, dont think they have a large appetite . The only benefit I can think of is to be a food source for your main tank if they survive the return pump.

But bioballs do trap a lot of detritus, which otherwise might have been skimmed off. Suggest you pull them off bit by bit, followed by water changes over the course of a few weeks, and see how. If you very "heart pain" over the loss of the pods, see if there is a compartment after the skimmer to store them. That way, they will help break up the micro bubbles, and still provide HDB living for the pods.

80ppm nitrates sound a bit high