Dosing Kalk With Vinegar

[onghm]

Started dosing kalk with vinegar recently.

Have a few queries which I hoped you guys could help.

First let me quote the below from Habib @Posted: Jul 21 2003, 10:26 PM

As you describe it is probably OK. I assume that the vinegar has about 5% acetic acid as is the case in e.g. the USA and in Holland.

If I assume a heaping spoon is approx 2 level spoons and you are adding 5 IDENTICAL spoons of vinegar then I can make the calculation.

let's assume 1 spoon is 5 ml (and does not matter if it is the same size used for both the vinegar and kalkwasser).

OK 1 heaping spoon = approx. 2 level spoons of kalkwasser. Assume 1 level spoon is 5 ml so 10 ml of kalkwasser powder which is approx. 5 grams.

5 grams of kalkwasser gives 0.135 moles of hydroxide ( a mol is a measure of quantity).

The acetic acid should never be more than 0.135 moles for your case.

The vinegar is 5 spoons of 5 ml is approx 25 gram. I assume the acetic acid content is 5% so that makes 1.25 gram of acetic acid.

This corresponds to 0.02 moles of acid. This is far less than the hydroxide so I don't see any problems with your method

Per above,

5 grams of kalk = 0.135 moles

1 gram = 0.135/5 = 0.027

25ml of vinegar = 25 gram

25 gram = 25 * 0.027 = 0.675 moles

5% of 25g gram = 5% x 0.675 = 0.03375 moles

Above was using 2 5ml-teaspoon of kalk with 5 5ml-teaspoon of vinegar.

We will still get the 1:1 ratio of calcium/alk as the amount of vinegar (0.03 moles) is not more than the hydroxides of kalk (0.135 moles)

So in theory, the maximum ammount of vinegar we can add to 2 5-ml teaspoon of kalk while still maintaining the 1:1 ration is 100ml ?

100 ml of vinegar = 100 gram

100 gram = 100 * 0.027 = 2.7 moles

5% of 100 gram = 5% x 2.7 = 0.135 moles

Is my understanding above correct ?

ie we can add max 100ml of vinegar to 2 teaspoon of kalk

[onghm]

The recommendation from Habib is 1:4 ratio

Below is quoted from him Posted: Jul 24 2003, 05:03 PM

Is there a method to do it more accurately??

I would only use plastic spoons and only very pure kalkwasser and vinegar without any color or herbs added to it so just plain vinegar.

I would also not use heaping spoon fulls but level spoons.

Assuming that the acetic acid concentration in vinegar in Singapore is about 5% then I would try for 2 liter of of top-off water 1 level teaspoon of kalkwasser powder and upto 4 level spoons of the vinegar.

1 level teaspoon is usually 5 ml.

Alwasy allow sufficient time for the vinegar to react with the kalkwasser.

Do not add the undissolved powder to the tank.

HTH

So for 2 5ml-teaspoon of kalk, the recommended amount of vinegar would be 8 5ml spoons which is 40ml

Reason I asked is, I started with 2ts kalk + 40ml vinegar. PH of kalk solution is > 12

2ts kalk + 50ml vinegar, PH still > 12

2ts kalk + 70ml vinegar, PH still > 12

How much vinegar do you guys dose to bring down the PH of the kalk solution ?

I prefered a lower PH kalk+vinegar solution because I'm dripping directly to my tank. I don't have a sump and I want to avoid a PH spike while dosing

Thanks

[Joe_P]

I jus add vinegar till my Kalk dissolves totally .... use 1 full spoonful with half bottle of vinegar......

and yes, you guys will think I'm crazy...... well,....AT, Tanzy and Morgan did.... you should take a look at their faces when I told them my dosing regiment....

and I jus dump them inot a high flow area of my sump.... so far so good... pH remains the same.... of course, do take into consideration the reef size.....

[onghm]

Phang,

Thanks for your feedback.

With the amount of vinegar you are adding, I assumed it's way above the amount of kalk hydroxide and therefore the 1:1 ratio is gone ?

Do you have to supplement with alk addictives to keep your dkh in balance ?

And did you have a chance to measure the ph of your kalk+vinegar solution ?

Thanks

[Joe_P]

Phang,

Thanks for your feedback.

With the amount of vinegar you are adding, I assumed it's way above the amount of kalk hydroxide and therefore the 1:1 ratio is gone ?

Do you have to supplement with alk addictives to keep your dkh in balance ?

And did you have a chance to measure the ph of your kalk+vinegar solution ?

Thanks

Hmmm.... dun think so.... the vinegar is suppose to dissolve the Kalk and should not affect the 1:1 ratio at all.....

Did not measure the pH level of the solution...

My dkH do drop once in awhile but mainly due to my calcium carbonates intake rather then the Kalk addition...

I notice that my dKH only drops when I dun dose kalk.....

[onghm]

Hmmm.... dun think so....  the vinegar is suppose to dissolve the Kalk and should not affect the 1:1 ratio at all.....

I thought the 1:1 ratio would only be true if the amount of vinegar added is less than the hydroxides of kalk ?

Below is again quoted from Habib Posted: Jul 22 2003, 09:32 PM

The alk will still rise and still in balance if the amount of vinegar is not allowed to be more than the hydroxides of kalkwasser.

[Joe_P]

I thought the 1:1 ratio would only be true if the amount of vinegar added is less than the hydroxides of kalk ?

Below is again quoted from Habib Posted: Jul 22 2003, 09:32 PM

I not so sure about that... maybe someone else would like to comment...

The link attached had the author mixing 30 ml to half teaspoon kalk... this ratio is definitely off the 1:4 kalk/vinegar mixture....

Refer to this link:

http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefca...kalkwasser.html

I think the impt point here is to ensure that your system can handle it....

Cos for my system with those amount of Calcium Carbonates, would definitely require a substantial amount of Calcium and Alk input....

BTW, I do run a Calcium Reactor with a high CO bubble count...... Have not seen my pH drop much ........

My dKH registers at min 10...... I do dose Reef Buildr once in a while to bring it up to 12..... which is the range that I would like to keep it....

[onghm]

Refer to this link:

http://www.reefscapes.net/articles/breefca...kalkwasser.html

Thanks Phang.

Yup, have read that article a couple of times.

Below is what the author is dosing as quoted from the article...

I've used 30ml of Vinegar to a ½ teaspoon of Ca(OH)2 per liter of mix without any problem

It matches nicely with the calculation example from Habib

The working :-

Per seachem kalk bottle, 1 ts = 3grams

Therefore, 1/2 ts of kalk = 1.5 grams

(I know in Habib's example, he approx 2ts to 5 grams, anyway only 1 gram diff)

1.5 * 0.027 = 0.0405 moles of hydroxides

30ml of vinegar = 30 * 0.027 = 0.81 moles

5% of 0.81 = 0.0405 moles

So for the auther's case of 1/2 ts of kalk (0.0405 moles) to 30ml of vinegar (0.0405) , its still within the guideline of amount of vinegar should not exceed the hydroxides of kalk in order to maintain the 1:1 ratio of cal/alk.

[bawater]

You shouldn't add vinegar as a main aim of lowering pH.

You add it so that you get more kalk to dissolve- thus a better saturation mixture.

all you should try to do is get more calcium into less water volume. (saving money on kalk, saving time on making more volume).

A way around the pH problem is dose kalk in the mornings, this is when the tank will be at its lowest pH.

- Try 1/2 teaspoon of kalk to 30ml vinegar in 1 gal water. You will only end up with dust particles of left over kalk...

30ml per 1/2 teaspoon was the highest amount tried....until phang came along.

i only use 10ml vinegar to 1 teaspoon kalk in either 2ltr or 1 gal water. (i use this mixture to 2 ltr to raise calcium levels or mixture to 1 gal to maintain levels)

i get a evaporation rate of 6-8ltrs a day. It takes me abt 2-3 days using a few 2ltr mixtures to raise calcium by 100ppm.

My daily calcium consumption is low- only abt 40ppm per day.

[coralreef]

can those undissolved kalk...reuse again????

[robe]

PLease note that you are adding calcium in the form of calcium acetate.... to breakdown calcium acetate you need the help of little bacterias to release the calcium into a form that the corals can use. Corals cannot use calcium acetate directly to build their skeleton.

Watch out for unwanted growth as the acetate is broken down into other compounds or use for some other process inside your tank.

[Clownfish]

Hi guys,

For betta dissolve of kalk... put the DI or the water to mix into the fridge... kalk dissolves much better when it is cold... thus no need to add vinegar....

Btw, kalk can be poured slowly at a high flowing area ( at the overflow into the sump ) just make sure that u monitor the pH of the main display aquarium not to have drastic increase of more than 0.2... n also try with small n slow pours first, monitoring n adjusting accordingly each time... Ca can be maintained easier n betta ( no more ppt )...

Knowledge derived from ML, tried it myself n still using it....

[onghm]

Hi guys,

Thanks a lot for the pointers.

By adding vinegar, I was trying to achieve 2 things; better saturation mixture as well as lower ph mixture.

Cause mine is a 2 footer with no sump.

Was also trying to replace my auto-top water with kalk solution.

At the moment, my top-up drip rate is about 3 drops per second.

I can either tweak my drip-rate or get the right balance of kalk/vinegar without causing too much ph spike.

PLease note that you are adding calcium in the form of calcium acetate.... to breakdown calcium acetate you need the help of little bacterias to release the calcium into a form that the corals can use. Corals cannot use calcium acetate directly to build their skeleton.

Watch out for unwanted growth as the acetate is broken down into other compounds or use for some other process inside your tank.

Hi Robe,

Would you mind to elaborate on the above ?

What sort of bacteria ?

I only know by adding vinegar, the added organic carbon could serve as a fuel for denitrifying bacteria.

And what sort of unwanted growth to look out for ?

Thanks a lot

[Joe_P]

30ml per 1/2 teaspoon was the highest amount tried....until phang came along.

Well, Bawater, if you understand the difficulty I have trying to maintain my Calcium levels there, you would understand the way I dose Kalk...

I have tried the 30 ml to 1/2 teaspoon ratio and discover that the final result is a pretty clear form so figure out that for the amount of Kalk that I'm using... that if I add in vinegar by 20 ml per addition till the final result is a clear mixture, I should be on the right track......

Currently using the ReefeZ Kalkwasser ..... so far so good....

Frankly, my large dosage of Kalk / vinegar is something that I can't do without cos my Calcium Reactor can't keep up with my Calcium carbonates depleting my calcium ....

Robe, you will have to elaborate on your post......

[coralreef]

joe_p...what abt the undissolved reefez??....can be reused??

[robe]

JUst make sure you get artificial vinegar to prevent organic compounds from being added into your tank. This is to prevent red slime from forming

If you dose too much calcium acetate with little breakdown of it to an assimilable form for the corals your reading for calcium might be skewed into having high calcium level and false confidence that the corals have all the calcium they need. This might slowly decelerate their growth and you'll wonder they stop growing with such high calcium levels.

[Joe_P]

If you dose too much calcium acetate with little breakdown of it to an assimilable form for the corals your reading for calcium might be skewed into having high calcium level and false confidence that the corals have all the calcium they need. This might slowly decelerate their growth and you'll wonder they stop growing with such high calcium levels.

Question is how do you get this Calcium acetate to breakdown to be usable by hard corals...???

Anyway, any document to back up your claims.....?

[bawater]

bacteria breaks it down......but too much fuel may make other things grow.

The concern with dosing a lot is that the acetate will be metabolized, using up O2. If you add too much without adequate aeration, that could possibly be an issue.

i did a search and i found that Calcium acetate is used to prevent high phosphorus blood levels in people with kidney failure. interesting.

http://www.gnc.com/health_notes/Drug/Calci...ium_Acetate.htm

Back on track.......covered in the topics here :

The chemistry forum(RC)...calcium acetate

[Joe_P]

bacteria breaks it down......but too much fuel may make other things grow.

The concern with dosing a lot is that the acetate will be metabolized, using up O2. If you add too much without adequate aeration, that could possibly be an issue.

i did a search and i found that Calcium acetate is used to prevent high phosphorus blood levels in people with kidney failure. interesting.

http://www.gnc.com/health_notes/Drug/Calci...ium_Acetate.htm

Back on track.......covered in the topics here :

The chemistry forum(RC)...calcium acetate

Thanks Bawater,

I would assume then that if enough water circulation and surface agitation is available, then the mentioned depletion of O2 would not occur??

So in that case, excessive doage of Kalk/Vinegar should not be a major issue...??

Another question pertaining to Robe's previous posting about the presence of "high non usable Calcium Acetate giving reefers a false impression of high calcium levels" can be fixed with a larger quantity of bacteria able to breakdown the Acetate into its components...??

BTW, what kind of bacteria are we referring to here??

Wouldn't the increase in the Calcium Acetate also create a bloom in the bacteria population hence also the ability to process much more Calcium Acetates ??

[bawater]

what i mentioned was that even though the bacteria will increase in population, there may also be other kinds of bacteria which use it as a source (who don't convert nitrate to nitrogen).

There are various accounts of sand clumping and white slimy bacteria growing. This is the feedback from a few aquarist out of a few thousands who use vinegar.

As No two reef systems are the same...you have to be the judge!...u know the rest.

i can't find the exact bacteria strain you asking robe for. but i found another article from aquarium frontiers that notes the slime and sand clumping. This could be from the excess carbon fueling other organisms...

Limewater, Acetic Acid and Sand Clumping

If you are worried about what vinegar is made from in the first place:

the leftover Acetate ions from the broken-down Vinegar leaves you with free organic Carbon - so good skimming is recommended.

Bacteria secrete matrix substances that act like organic glues. Increasing the mass of bacteria in the sand by giving them a new food source might result in the production of more of these glue-like substances.

Acetic acid is a natural product. It is produced by microbial oxidation of sugars. The complex soup of fermentation products is distilled to give reasonably pure acetic acid. Anything that can distill over with acetic acid and is produced by the microbes can possibly wind up in vinegar, so it is quite possible that some impurity in the vinegar itself is causing the increase in skimmate production. Another possibility is that vinegar is used by organisms in the aquarium and some metabolic product increases in concentration. These secondary metabolic products could increase the amount of skimmable organic material in the aquarium.

Because foam fractionation or “protein skimming” is one of the major nutrient export mechanisms in many reef aquariums, the apparent enhancement in skimming may also influence the amount of nutrients available to nuisance algae in the tank. It is also possible that the addition of acetate stimulated dissimilatory denitrification in the aquarium and reduced the pool of available nitrogen.

Note******

We are only discussing artificial vinegar(5%) as a acetate source. NOT wine vinegar,cider vinegar,rice vinegar

[Achilles Tang]

lol... i still remember Barracuda insisting that his rice vinegar usage gave no probs until I highlighted the other 'food stuff' inside it! Imagine fish bits, sugar, herbs, alcohol mixed with kalk!

[onghm]

I've been scouting around looking at the various type of vinegar available in supermarkets.

Some label them as artificial vinegar and some imitation vinegar.

But as long as the ingredients say : acetic acid and water, that should be fine right ?

By the way, I still have not come across any that would say 5% acetic acid.

Can we assume all acetic acid in those artificial or imitation vinegar is 5% ?

[Achilles Tang]

Artificial/imitation vinegar/acetic acid & water is the correct one to get.

The rest are for cooking purposes!

[robe]

Thanks Bawater for the article....

As Craig Bingman has recommended in Aquarium frontiers a few years ago is to limit the addition of acetic acid to your kalkwasser mix.

As they say moderate drinking of alcohol is healthy but too much alcohol can make you puke & puke until there's nothing to puke....

[Achilles Tang]

Pls tell that to Joe_p, he uses half a bottle per dose!!! Zoiks!!