A LONG HARD LOOK AT OURSELVES

[RAV-65]

Here's a call to all SRC reefers... it's not too late to change and make this reefing community a better and more enjoyable place (again)... back to the 'good old days'. And our words and actions should extend beyond this online forum, to the physical world out there as well. After all, if reefing was not something to be enjoyed and shared, why are we all here?

SOLUTION: "Think Twice, or Three Times If You Have To, Before You Act"

I agree with Dadano...

Thinking twice or thrice before you act would be a good way to begin, I once saw reefer A who commented in the forum dat reefer B is selling an item at too high a price... at the same time reefer A was himself trying to sell something which in my opinion was very high in price too! Feeling dat justice should be done for reefer B, I was about to shoot reefer A down, in his own sale thread when I suddenly remembered that I'm here to make friends and learn about this marine hobby.

I proceeded to PM reefer A and told him dat it is not a nice thing to be making such comments in other people's sales thread. If you do this to others, others would always be ready to "take revenge"... One similar incident I like to highlight would be a reefer trying to sell his chiller. I believe he had earlier make some comments about another chiller being sold and very soon, he was being pounced upon by some prominent reefers here... And when i say some prominent reefers, it was about 4-5 of them!! I did a count of these 4-5 people and their total posts exceed some 16,000 posts!

No offence to anyone, but for any newbie or new members to witness an event like dat would only signal to them that in this forum, the so-called "prominent people" are all ganged up! And yes, that sounds pretty hostile to me!

If everyone who have posted their views here in this thread were to put in an effort to help SRC become a nicer place, I believe it can all begin! That effort to be "nice" to one another would rub off to others who are new to this forum and it can indeed be a better place!

Juz my opinion....

[ReDDeviLs]

as for LFS weekly report, i find it very funny.. reporting what stock arrived or spotted..but no location mention..

i have never been to any fish farm in the morning,even sundays when i am there its close to 3pm.. i missed all the good stuffs but never complained at all,only to blame that im late or slow..

everyone have their ways of spending,u cant blame anyone that spends $1000 all on bubble corals can u?

if u miss this shipment,wait for the next..simple as that.

there will not be a shortage of corals or fishes in the sea for u.. thats what i believe for now.

[flubberina13]

Bottomline...it is about cultivating a society of grace. Are we able to do it? Are we able to forgive and forget?

One just put in one's efforts and I believe the Singaporean society will become well-known for its virtues and not kiasuism...

[bwilly]

which came to my mind.. recently i helped a young reefer collected something. I got immediately a response to meet up asap...

I was quite surprised as I got "may" the feeling I may sapo these stuffs collected..

no thank you PM.. one of the last few "good" deed I will do for "stranger".

yes, last time reefers are little, but costructive advice is a many..

I still remember fondly bawater, one of the senior who was kind to me in many ways when I just started out.

Looking at your post flubber ah jie.. , my motto is forgives but never forget.

If not will never learn from experience.

[flubberina13]

Yup...I agree...

It is a cliched saying so I just pen it down...

Forgiveness makes one a better human but to prevent being 'mindset' as a dodo-bird, one must learn from the experience and treasure the lesson learnt but in a positive manner.

I was also a victim of sabotage and I can still remember how you guys came on line to comfort me and also the well-wishers about the 'nail-swallowing' incident... and all the small little favours that each of us do for one another with no strings attached...

How people looked after my tank for 1.5 months without any grouses, grievances nor bitterness...How some would sms me to say they going lfsing and asking me to join them when they realised I dun know how to drive...

Indeed I have met many kind souls in this forum and I have grown to appreciate them and wishing the best of everything for them.

Those good old days...where are you?

[ReDDeviLs]

i remember once AT told me its very difficult to handle a SRC.

now i understand..

AT has done a wonderful job by providing a SRC for people like us to make our reefing life more simple.. i made friends thru here too..

but instead of thanking him, we contribute more workload to him which is damn unfair..

he spend his time,his $ to start.. spend precious time to get sponsors to SRC to benenfit us..

i believe there wil be times he sounds alittle harsh in replies or comments.. but no one is perfect..

if asking everyone to thank him for the wonderful job is asking for too much, i think we just stop giving him problem and he will be more than happy..

we shld try to control our behavior before the SRC goes right down under.

if u think that i am a nobody to voice out or join this speech or im a new reefer without successful tank... than im willing to take back my words and keep quiet

[Terryz_]

I might not have been in SRC for a long time... But I see that SRC have changes a lot... And i really mean a lot... Last time, it was like a very warm and relaxing place to come too... No quarreling and what so ever... Now it is not the same anymore...

We really should thanks AT for having this forum, forking out money for it and maintaining it with the helps of the MODs... But instead we have created more trouble for them to handle...

Really wish that we could go back to the good old days...

Also realised a lot of "old" reefer like disappeared in thin air... Could it be because of this change they stop coming to SRC...

Dun wish to comment too much... Wait say wrong things...

[sailfin]

When we make mistakes, which we all do from time to time,

it's encouraging to know that we still have a choice to put things right. Fortunately, when we ADMIT what we have done,

The next step is to put things right, and

to make sure we deal with the root cause of our mistakes

(and get into a recovery program if necessary) so we don't

keep repeating the same mistakes and making bad choices....make a start and admit your mistakes because thats the first step. Theres alot of pride (save face in this forum) and the bravest ones have already apologise for their wrong doings if any.

RAV-65.....Toatally agree with you on this section....

* I believe he had earlier make some comments about another chiller being sold and very soon, he was being pounced upon by some prominent reefers here... And when i say some prominent reefers, it was about 4-5 of them!! I did a count of these 4-5 people and their total posts exceed some 16,000 posts.*

Looks like the same situation is cropping up all the time and prominent throughout this forum.

[reeflobang]

Used to log on more often but enthusiasm died down when I started to see so much in-fighthing going on. Am also seeing more curt replies from reefters these days as well.

I used to do post more on special offers or things I saw on the net (reefLOBANG) but slowed down considerably as I would get replies like - "its already in SRC for a long time liao or something like this".... Quite sian to see such replies. But yet I do get PMs from people asking for more info or help for those posts as well.

Rumours - its exists everywhere. How to stop this?

Rule No 1 - if you chance upon something/event that you are unable to verify its accuracy, don't forward it!

Rule No 2 - if someone tells you something juicy but he/she cannot verify its accuracy, don't forward it!

[AlfaRomeo]

IMHO, one of the key problem is our singaporean society on the whole. We have been trained to think like we do. Must die-die save face, must compete in everything we do and no prizes for 2nd place. MUST be 1st or you are nuthing... Kiasu,kiasee

Motto of most Singaporeans 'Me, Myself and I' so there is very little that we can do here since the values are deeply embedded in most of us.

We as a society have a lot to learn from others.

For example, i enjoy working with my european/american counterparts more than my HK counterparts generally. y? politics/backstabbing/bickering etc etc etc which is prevalent in their culture. The sad thing is that we are heading down that very same path.

Can we stop it? dunt think so.

[flubberina13]

IMHO, one of the key problem is our singaporean society on the whole. We have been trained to think like we do. Must die-die save face, must compete in everything we do and no prizes for 2nd place. MUST be 1st or you are nuthing... Kiasu,kiasee

Motto of most Singaporeans 'Me, Myself and I' so there is very little that we can do here since the values are deeply embedded in most of us.

We as a society have a lot to learn from others.

For example, i enjoy working with my european/american counterparts more than my HK counterparts generally. y? politics/backstabbing/bickering etc etc etc which is prevalent in their culture. The sad thing is that we are heading down that very same path.

Can we stop it? dunt think so.

We can if we wan to... there's always a choice. Just that some of us can't see it when we got embedded in the issues.

Is it the society making the people?

I choose to differ...afterall it is people who make up a society. We just need to make the right choices.

Is there a Gandhi out there? Mother Teresa?

[Achilles Tang]

Read through some of the above... so the feelings that SRC has changed alot are more widespread that I thought. If the senior members were to speak up, I am sure we'll get an even ruder slap.

When I said to take a long hard look at ourselves, it mean to reflect on our ownselves first before looking at others (for the one who asked what this means).

Comments were made that I have 'lost' control of SRC throughout time but my defensive reply was... "How could I control what makes up the character of a person? How can I control his motives, mood and objectives everytime he/she posts a comment? How do I say that post made is out to invoke a negative response and delete it immediately? (unless it was obvious?).

Friends who see the crap I went through in all the politics & revengeful activities of certain individuals in the industry and those in SRC who are helping them against me have time and time again told me to detach my feelings of hurt and not to react by posting in SRC.... I tried very hard not to but I did on several occasions to mainly warn them that I was aware of their actions. For that, these friends have my eternal thanks. But more often than not, people fail to realize that I am human also, hence my occasional outbursts.

For those who think that I'm trying to get sympathy here, I'm not. I have already been hardened so much that my heart is stone cold. Would you guys believe me if I tell you that there are people out there who wants SRC closed down because I/We are a threat to them? And these are not people outside SRC but people who are in SRC, who are part of this community, who have benefitted before from SRC.

SRC for the record, will forever be here and will not be easy to bring down because IT SERVES THE PEOPLE and IT IS MADE UP OF THE PEOPLE... not just me. Like I said since the day I started this club... I merely turned the ignition key but you guys are the ENGINES!!!

But seriously, how do I control how people talk? Don't forget SRC has grown from a handfull of people to now about 3000 registered members... and believe me when i say that there are a LOT more people who don't/have not register yet for some reasons!

SRC had strict rules since the beginning so much so that people complained that it was stifling. I implemented the Warning System of yellow-carding someone first. This system hopefully would remind users that they were to conduct themselves well in this community.

SO has the control system failed? Can it be improved? Do we need more STRICT Mods who are no-nonsense people watchers? Are the mods expected to be even less human?

I think the answer can be found when individually, we all make THE EFFORT individually.

So ask ourselves these:

Must we change for the better.... YES!

Can we change? YES!!!

Can we be nicer and better people? YES!!!

Can we all INDIVIDUALLY play a part to make this place a little better?? YES!!!!!

Can we all contribute more as INDIVIDUALS to help our fellow men? YES!!

A little harder now:

Can we all learn to be a little less selfish, revengeful, jealous towards our fellow men??

Can we learn not to be so suspicious of one another?

Can we all learn to be more forgiving?

Can we all learn not to be so proud and superior?

Can we all learn not to be part of the problem and be part of the solution???

[flubberina13]

I guess each of us need to take time out for some personal reflections.

Sorry about the outburst just now in another thread. You hardly see me ventilating but I guess it was the last straw that breaks the camel back...Apologies...

[Terryz_]

I agree with Flubby Sis... We really need some time out to do some self reflection...

We need to reflect on our attitude and our actions in SRC... Be more open-minded and dun take everything to heart... We also need to think twice, thrice before we type anything that might annoy or irritate other reefers...

[pospeh]

I too agree that the atmosphere here have changed. More hostility in general. This is probably due to the increased membership.

Ultimately, I dont think having this discussion will change anything, but I suppose it gives people a chance to air out their feelings.

[auberon]

AT, I agree with your comments above. There is only so much that you or the other mods can do. Like anything else about life in Singapore, if you put too much restrictions people will complain you are too authoritarian. If you ease off to much, things can go out of control as can be seen in some of the threads. Self control should be the way to go. Unfortunately the world is not a perfect place...

On another point, I know a few people who would want the SRC to close. I know a few people who own LFS who have negative remakrs about the SRC and some of the comments made in the threads. They quite pissed and they do discuss about it when they meet.

I have not mentioned about my regular foray into the SRC to them much as they all ways give me a funny look. But I still find it a good place to pick up a few useful hints here and there. And it is always feels good if I can pass on some help to a fellow newbie.

[acroporidae]

1) first and formost,

as a new member, i try to make frens. but i noticed that there aren't many who want to extend their frenship.

2) everyone seems to be in some biz of some sort here THAT INCLUDES U. which means there is always a vested interest here.

3) not everyone is gentleman in their dealings and most just wants to prove they are more superioir/ with greater understanding. and U ARE LIKE THAT too. just incase u don't know

4) of course there are alot of sensitive ppl around but sometimes there is favoritism practised here.

5) there is no freedom of posts here. pics get removed and a tick tock was carried out as and when u like it. seriously u shud consider yourself lucky when ppl surf your webpage. most ppl dun like that kind of treatment.

if u say posts are not specific, thenu shud chk out on all the others.

6) unlike the others who address u as BOSS. i dun. becos if u want to be BOSS, behave like a BOSS. since when did u take care of the others except for your frens and customers only.

7) basically, it starts with the HEAD. if the HEAD is like that, he will attract the same towards him. Birds of a feather flock together.

Anyway, i know u will erase my thread.. so others dun read rite???

but if u are man to reflect yor actions and brave enuff to admit it, i will bring

[acroporidae]

cont'd

will bring the rest of the prodigals to attn. hopefully they will come back

IMO, u have not won the hearts of men.

a true leader is not by appointment only. jus becos u are the moderator, does not give u the right to rule the reefers here.

wakey wakey

[Achilles Tang]

Hi Mr Acroporidae

Welcome to SRC and thank you for your positive feedback on how to improve myself. Certainly, someone who has been using SRC for mostly sales purposes will be in certain position to give good personal feedback. I believe you must know me very well as a friend or do most of your feedback come from people you hang around with who knows me very well?

Anyway, I have never said I was perfect and have never said I am placed on Planet Earth to please 100% of everyone 100% of the time. Placing myself on the frontline and in the spotlight, I know that I will get criticism of every word I speak and activity I engage in. I am prepared to deal with it and I am prepared to take every word of yours to improve myself.

If there is something you wish to highlight about my failings, please PM me and I will see if there is truth to what you are transmitting and if need be to change myself for the betterment of myself and not just to please other people.

No government on Planet Earth is perfect and will come under fire from both the left wing and the right wing for whatever policies they implement. Certainly how I run SRC will never please everyone. BUT it is also unfair & immature to blame me & SRC for how certain people behave themselves outside.

I brought this topic up for us to take at hard look at ourselves (and that includes me of course) and see how ugly we can become as human beings.

This topic is for us to evaluate ourselves on how we interact with one another in this small community and whether we are part of the problem or the solution.

Since I am part of the Administration of my own forum, I decide how I run the place (and that includes if I do commercial activities here if it helps to bring food home to my table and help run this club) and if people are unhappy, they can vote with their feet by leaving and never coming back, anyway, the club is free for all to come and leave. Some have made full use of the forum and left. Some have stayed and contributed and will still continue to contribute. Some use the forum for their own selfish purposes like just to sell off things but have never gave anything back but ask for more in return.

A general question one can ask thyself is: Why are you here and what's your motive?

[Achilles Tang]

Anyway, since you have taken the trouble to point out several things about myself, I will answer you in brief.

Any further need to expound, we shall do it in PM so as not to dilute the topic.

1) first and formost,

as a new member, i try to make frens. but i noticed that there aren't many who want to extend their frenship.

Well, making friends is very much up to your EQ. Some people readily make friends and some can't.

2) everyone seems to be in some biz of some sort here THAT INCLUDES U. which means there is always a vested interest here.

Yeah... I am in the marine biz for quite some time now so its natural that I utilize this forum to do sales as do most of the advertisers here. It's probably a testament to the effectiveness of this media since every person who comes here is a potential customer. Is there an unspoken or written rule that I cannot have commercial interests or be in the marine hobby trade if I am running a local reef club? Do I have to run this board purely out of my pocket & kick out my advertisers?

As for other people who does seem to want to be engaged in some sort of enterprise, yes, it does seem to be a problem when it brings out the ugly side of people when they form alliances, or have supporters who sometimes try to bring down a competiting product or support their friends'. And some people who try to fleece others and some who profiteer. What do you propose we do about this problem?

3) not everyone is gentleman in their dealings and most just wants to prove they are more superioir/ with greater understanding. and U ARE LIKE THAT too. just incase u don't know

I think actions speaks louder than words and I almost certainly try to prove with evidence what I claim to know. Anyway, I believe in sharing and teaching but not forcing people to accept my words as gospel truth. If I have done so and you are offended, I apologize.

4) of course there are alot of sensitive ppl around but sometimes there is favoritism practised here.

Every Human interaction guarantees that there will be some favoured more than others, be it in your own family, workplace, place of worship, at the LFS, at the coffee store etc etc. Its up to the individual to deal with it, and there are bigger issues around the world like racism that are more difficult to deal with.

5) there is no freedom of posts here. pics get removed and a tick tock was carried out as and when u like it. seriously u shud consider yourself lucky when ppl surf your webpage. most ppl dun like that kind of treatment.

if u say posts are not specific, thenu shud chk out on all the others.

As this is the first time I am hearing that I am lucky that people are still surfing SRC in spite of my rules & regulations, then I must count myself as the luckiest man on earth because the number of people joining SRC is still increasing rapidly.

The way I do things here, you can call that 'Administrative Perogative' or Owner's Rights... the rules are meant to keep things in order... if not SRC will have anarchy and be an extremely messy place. If you like freedom of posts without any guidelines or restrictions, I can refer you to some boards which are less governed with inhibitive rules like SRC.

I thought the complaint would have been that I am slacking in my job recently! And yes, if there are posts that may be errant, please highlight it to me or the Mods who will rectify. Please understand that there are hundreds if not thousands of thread replies to monitor and there's only 3 of us... who are not present 24/7.

6) unlike the others who address u as BOSS. i dun. becos if u want to be BOSS, behave like a BOSS. since when did u take care of the others except for your frens and customers only.

"Boss" is a nickname given to me by a few people who can say it in jest or in sarcasm (i never know)... of which I am quite uncomfortable with and have told a few people to quit calling me that. I know BOSSES are hated at times... even I can't recall that I love every boss of mine in my past careers. If you have felt that you need to call me boss for whatever reason, please don't. I'm glad you don't.

As for taking care of others, please define 'others' and 'taking care of others'. If you mean everyone else here in SRC (except friends and customers), then do you mean that all the time I have taken to run this place, put up with threats and complaints, the vulgar emails, the tips, advice and information that I have helped others with all this past years have been a waste of time and totally unhelpful? WOW! I'm must be the most sadistic person on this earth to do this to myself!!!

7) basically, it starts with the HEAD. if the HEAD is like that, he will attract the same towards him. Birds of a feather flock together.

Are you just like me, talk like me and dress like me? I feel like Slim Shady. Never mind. You are saying everyone active here in SRC is just like me. Or am I just like you because logic dictates that you here in SRC. It's either an insult or a compliment. I am confused.

Anyway, i know u will erase my thread.. so others dun read rite???

Nope. As evidenced by me keeping this thread by you and replying. But can i suggest that you talk to me on PM or call me on the phone on any further replies?

Thank you very much for sharing that I am part of the problem and awaiting your suggestions on how I can be part of the solution (via PM of course).

Yours sincerely,

AT

[nicholasloh]

note to mr acroporidae, u are new and definitely do not understand the situation well. thats becos u dun noe AT.

seriuosly, i hated him SO MUCH in the past when i was new, becos i get flamed and topics deleted for lack of clarity. but haf u tot of putting urself in other's shoes? do u know how much time it take for us to browse thru things that are so vague i haf no shit idea wad u're toking abt?

plz grow up, and learn from mistakes. no ones gonna scream at u if u learn. and u better darn well learn now, cos everyone alreadi knows the rules.

and plz dun judge when u barely know them, mr 2 mth old guy.

excuse my rudeness for i'm juz 13

[Siput]

Some of the posts are really getting heated!

This is a club where members gather to share info, ideas, etc. As in any club or society there must be certain rules, as AT mentioned above, in order to maintain harmony and foster a community of sharing. So vulgarism, quarreling, rumour spreading, personal attacks, etc should be curtailed as much as possible.

A good example would be that I suspect I will not see some of the people here accuse their friends or even acquaintances in public or even in private face-to-face, as this would be aginst the "norms of society", and that person will feel uncomfortable. And yet in cyberspace, we see a lot of this "deviant" behaviour occuring in this same group of people. Having been "attacked" myself before (not in this forum, though), all I can conclude is that such people are typically (dare I use the word) cowards who use harsh words under a cloak of anonymity to mask their own shortcomings/insecurities. There is always a way of putting ideas across gently/sensibly, but this is not the road most travelled when it comes to the net.

AT, I know u believe in freedom of posts/criticism, but there has to be a line drwan somewhere when people get openly abusive. Unfortunately u & the mods are the ones that have to make the judgement call, and are as a result the ones with the cross to bear.

Anyway, great forum and really nice people (those that I have met, at least ), and I hope the club is here to stay!

[danano]

1) first and formost,

as a new member, i try to make frens. but i noticed that there aren't many who want to extend their frenship.

2) everyone seems to be in some biz of some sort here THAT INCLUDES U. which means there is always a vested interest here.

3) not everyone is gentleman in their dealings and most just wants to prove they are more superioir/ with greater understanding. and U ARE LIKE THAT too. just incase u don't know

4) of course there are alot of sensitive ppl around but sometimes there is favoritism practised here.

5) there is no freedom of posts here. pics get removed and a tick tock was carried out as and when u like it. seriously u shud consider yourself lucky when ppl surf your webpage. most ppl dun like that kind of treatment.

if u say posts are not specific, thenu shud chk out on all the others.

6) unlike the others who address u as BOSS. i dun. becos if u want to be BOSS, behave like a BOSS. since when did u take care of the others except for your frens and customers only.

7) basically, it starts with the HEAD. if the HEAD is like that, he will attract the same towards him. Birds of a feather flock together.

Anyway, i know u will erase my thread.. so others dun read rite???

but if u are man to reflect yor actions and brave enuff to admit it, i will bring

Hmmm... this would be a precise example of the type of language and animosity that is not conducive for a fun and enjoyable online reefing community and experience.

Besides, basic online etiquette dictates that letters in caps equates to "shouting".

Let there be peace...

[Terryz_]

1) first and formost,

as a new member, i try to make frens. but i noticed that there aren't many who want to extend their frenship.

2) everyone seems to be in some biz of some sort here THAT INCLUDES U. which means there is always a vested interest here.

3) not everyone is gentleman in their dealings and most just wants to prove they are more superioir/ with greater understanding. and U ARE LIKE THAT too. just incase u don't know

4) of course there are alot of sensitive ppl around but sometimes there is favoritism practised here.

5) there is no freedom of posts here. pics get removed and a tick tock was carried out as and when u like it. seriously u shud consider yourself lucky when ppl surf your webpage. most ppl dun like that kind of treatment.

if u say posts are not specific, thenu shud chk out on all the others.

6) unlike the others who address u as BOSS. i dun. becos if u want to be BOSS, behave like a BOSS. since when did u take care of the others except for your frens and customers only.

7) basically, it starts with the HEAD. if the HEAD is like that, he will attract the same towards him. Birds of a feather flock together.

Anyway, i know u will erase my thread.. so others dun read rite???

but if u are man to reflect yor actions and brave enuff to admit it, i will bring

acroporidae, pls reflect on your own actions before asking others to reflect on theirs... You are always welcomed to leave SRC anytime... Nobody is not letting you leave SRC... I also have noticed that you post mostly in the Pasar Malam selling your things... Not much post in other forums and you claim you are trying to make friend...

Sorry if i sound rude....

[Achilles Tang]

Alright everybody, please lay off Acroporidae. He seems to have some personal issues with me that I feel will distract from the subject matter and we should settle this via PM.