A LONG HARD LOOK AT OURSELVES

[Achilles Tang]

It is with great disappointment that I have to write this out from my heart.

It is NOT addressed to those who have been in SRC for too short a time to be tainted by cliques, ego problems, commercial intent, rivalry, jealousy, money-making intent or simply personal competition.

It is addressed to those who have succumbed to negative behavior namely the spread of vicious rumours, malicious gossip, negative propaganda on fellow SRC members, their activities, their business etc, based on the need to one-up the victim(s) for personal gain, commercial rivalry, ego, showmanship and other agendas known to themselves.

WHY IS THIS HAPPENING???

This is after having talks with a lot of 'old birds' who have disappeared from the scene, namely after being disgusted by the rising number of 'intermediate' reefers who have risen up and either diluted or spoilt the atmosphere in SRC by their negative behaviour.

What happened to the Good Ol' Days when we were all friends in serious discussion about reefkeeping? When intellectual debates kept the discussions lively and a joy? When people shared information freely and without prejudice? When we enjoyed each others company to the extent that we had house visits and outside activities together?

Here's what's happening today IMO:

We see people COMPETING to fight over livestock purchases....

We see strong words being hurled at each other over a difference in opinions...

We see people who form factions to attack individuals or other cliques who have made them unhappy with certain comments made or actions committed.

We see people who will not hesitate to slime or attack businesses and use every opportunity to bring up negative experiences to highlight to the community.

We see people who because of money issues related to business rivalry or competition, spread negative comments, false rumours etc to bring them down.

We see people blatantly hijacking sales of SRC advertiser's products with their own copied products and affecting their business.

We see people who propagate mistruths for whatever reason and helping to spread it on to affect the other party.

Why are we such an ugly bunch of people? Why are we such vicious gossip-mongers? Why are we so shallow? Why do people feel the need to engage in such needless politics, loose talk and hostile activities??!

Why have so many friends fallen out with each other because of differences in opinon or their business differences?

Isn't this about a very simple thing??? It's JUST A HOBBY!!!!!! CHILL!!!!!

Throw in your two cents worth... and bare your soul.

Maybe I have grown cynical and I can't see the silver lining anymore... please tell me that I am wrong... and I am pigeonholing a few rotten apples...

AT

[ryz]

*gulp*

I feel that SRC is being "dominated" by a few reefers who are active members and can afford or are willing to spend huge amounts of money on this hobby. These reefers have the best equipments and can afford to cehong and get the best livestocks... People respect them and envy them because of their nice tanks, which is "bought". This made their ego swell to gargantuan proportions.

Many presume that just because a particular reefer has a nice tank, he has to be one of the most knowledgeable with best husbandry skills etc. But it is merely because they are willing to spend loads of money on their tank. As many are presumptious of these reefers' knowledge and abilities, these reefers' ego swell more...

When there is a clash of ideas between these reefers and others or amongst this group of reefers, both parties are usually very insistent on their idealogies and are unwilling to back down. This is largely because of pride... They are too arrogant to be proved wrong.

Pride has gotten the best of many of us.. SRC is all about exchanging experiences and knowledge. There is no dishonour in being misinformed and proved wrong. Isn't that what we're here for in the first place? To share knowledge and correct misinformation?

This is just my honest opinion.. No harm intended. Do not wish to be flamed for this... peace

oh, and if you're wondering why I'm awake at this hour... haha, I'm studying for my exams... not sleeping otherwise I won't be able to wake later lol.

[optimus prime]

this remind me of a young boy or chap who got super equipment -sponsored by the father(for sure).

MAIN PROBLEMS in any forums that lead to these:

1) people gets more educated.thus will blast any old/conventional methods.never they realise 'old birds' been reefing when they take PSLE

2) read too much from different books/websites etc... just like my workplace, different scientist got diff opinion.thus creates many followers thus creates rivalry

in opinion.

3) money talks.many many money=nice tank=many brothers around.not neccesary the fella knowledgable.

4) tooooo much small groups/gangs.if you notice certain threads get 'thousands' of replies, others a few.so not much intergrity as a sgreefclub.you only reply to those you know or you like..many even carry balls of certain people.

5) some @#%^^*& who just dont want to listen to advise.dont know if they arrogant or got money. one good example is t@#$%$#%^&*.

i may be laser mouthed but i speak the truth.up to you to accept.

[DeepBlue]

Glad this is highlighted...

I was just actually mentioning about this a few days ago.

You and some senior reefers have always seen some of the reefers, like me, visiting a lot of LFS in the past to shop for stuffs.

We used to enjoy going LFS and meeting up reefers...it was always a pleasant scene in SRC. Seldom see any unpleasant things happening besides the episode with that kid ....

But sadly to say...I do find SRC becoming a lesser and lesser appealing place to visit recently as there are a lot of ....(we know what)

reasons:

1) Buying stuffs can be seen as hogging (seriously...are reefers doing that?) Now, there are so many more LFS than a couple of years ago. There are so much more quality stocks coming in.... and we have more angry reefers? We used to be so proud when and discuss about nice gems we found ....now, we get sarcastic remarks, we get people being angry they didnt get the same quality stuffs (when they missed the chance??)

Was trying to stay out of the whole thing ....but some reefers just has the knack of irritating and offending everyone....geez.....

2) Chatting. I agree..one way or another ...A LOT OF reefers here are guilty of this. Yup, we used to feel so bad of going off topic and will quickly come back to the main topic last time. Got to refrain. No matter what...with lesser mods activity to allow greater freedom...it will happen. Maybe the admin team might want to look at this again...

3) lastly ... no matter what happens....all the LFS banning, flaming issues may need to be addressed soon. Its unhealthy and we simply cannot try to stop a issue, an incident, without looking at the whole SRC again.

BOSS...site belong to you....your call. Personally... I hope we can work the whole thing out....

worst come to worst....version 2 or 3 lor.....SRC reloaded

[Alentino]

I realise that there is an increasing number of narrow minded people who treat this forum as a place of passing judgements on others, instead of just learning and getting info here about reefing. whatever were they thinking?

[flubberina13]

1) Many a times, fellow reefers tried to cool some off and to intervene

btw 'squabbles' and were flamed indirectly. It doesn't pay to be kind

anymore?

2) Some came in with different agendas. Some created gangs and together came

in full swarm to try to pull another reefer down because of one's own hidden

agenda. Most of the time, pride is at work and the utmost desire to drive in the

last word so as to feel 'one-up' against the other party.

And I also echo the same sentiments as optimus prime and DeepBlue.

Nowadays, humble pies are not longer in production...

[weileong]

Since this has been bought up let me share my views.

This is my personal opinion and I hope I don't get flamed for posting the following:

1. Buying LS has become a crime. You get negative comments from others after buying some fish and coral. Some other reefers can even accused you of working in red light districts after you bought a particular fish that was wanted so badly as attempts to make reservation was rejected by the particular LFS as they do not accept LS reservations.

2. Accusing other reefers of hogging the tub/display tank at the LFS. This is not true at all since no one ever complains about it. I believe our boss AT does cheong SPS shipment too and I am sure we all agree that hogging of tub just doesn't happen. It just depends on how the other person view it. Unfortunately this point was bought up and used to shoot other reefers.

If you don't agree with my points we can discuss it openly

[alanseah]

Well I must state that this very comments I'm making is just my point of view and if anyone gatta offended by my very word, let me say sorry to you first.

1. From my understanding this is not a commerical forum, so why should they be any banning of site or LFS due to whatever reason. Issit free speach allow worldwide. I do find abit trouble to highlight to other where to purchase stuff and cant even say their shop name.

2. If there is a need to have "banned" LFS maybe can setup a thread for a list of LFS who is blacklisted due to whatever reason. But what right do you have? This forum is not the Minisity of reef or whatever. It just a hobby forum so alot of things that is carry out here, noone has any right to do much. If over do it might face the chance of gatta warming and may face closing down of this forum.

3. Like all say there seem to be a small cluster of group in SRC and ppls are only activite to their own group of ppls. Which I think this is not going to do any good to alot, in term of knowledge sharing.

4. I think the main issue of those quarrel and fighting or what so ever, mostly is due to the culture of S'porean r. As you can see not only this kind of behaviour in here but every where in SG, in the train, at Mac where ppls queue up for kitty can also fight. S'porean need to be more mature and less narrow minded.

5. I find this forum is abit too enclose as only mostly S'porean reefing r active here and we really lack the knowledge and technology in S'pore. Reefer like german and state have so much advance knowloedge in reefing. Therefore we must try to be open and do what the other country reefer is doing share your knowledge and if your system work share it out and explain how come it work and let other try it and let them choose which one they should go for.

Take for e.g. There is this thread call nature reefing and this guy from oversea is using Mud and without skimmer. On the very first few thread everyone in SG is not showing any interest and thinking this guy must be lousy or know nothing. But when he post his pic of his tank and how many fish in it. Straight away everyone start to get interested. This what I mean by "narrow minded"

6. Lastly if you are facing problem or quarrel with any LFS or Sponsors or Tank maker or whatever, pls bring this issue to the Mod and ask them for help (Worst come to worst just go look for CASE and ask them to help u solve it) and not posting in the forum and let everyone step in without knowing the full story and make matter worst. Everyone need to do business by doing this even if the LFS or Sponsors or Tank Maker is not wrong in this issue, business for him after the incident will suffer no matter what.

Lastly this is a free forum we can't expect too much but hoping everyone here is to help and share knowledge and maybe make friends here.

[Melvyn Tan]

Bravo ! i see many have taken an interest in preserving the true intent

of a hobbyist website - information and knowledge sharing ! just some

weeks ago after some kind of incident in SRC, i took a closer look at

other websites of the same nature and decided to conclude that SRC

is quite degenerated as what some real expert reefers had told me

personally previously.

Lets hope things will change - no more Singaporean attitude and let us

make this hobby an even more enjoyable one.

PS : You don't have to be rich to be clever !

[Zero Oxygen]

IMO

I believe when marine first started out, people have taken it as a PURE HOBBY. Everyone will try to learn from each other as much as they can. To maintain a healthy tank, healthy specimen, less money spent on unnessacary stuff etc.

But now adays many people start to jump into the marine train. Not because they like marine. I find that it is mainly because of Finding Nemo. People start to realise the EXISTENCE of marine aquarium. And people start to setup NEMO tank because they are beautiful, buy fishes and anemone without knowing what is it all about. Die liao nevermind, replace lor.

This is the kind of feeling i always have when i go to LFS. I see so many "ah beng/ah lian" around buying and buying without knowing what they are holding. These batch belongs to the "UNEDUCATED", as they dont even know the existence of SRC, reefcentral. Some dont even know they can find info on the net.

Their only source of information is from the stall holder.... everyone know how unreliable some of the people are.

You can hear/see alot of such people when u visit places like Rianbow, etc.

But at the other hand, everyone here belong to the "EDUCATED". We know how to source for information, know what are the basic knowledge we need to acquire before buying or setting up etc. But at the same time, being "EDUCATED" doesnt mean there are no "BENGSTER" around.

Everyone cant deny that, some people here are cocky,ignorant or oblivious. These "BENGSTER" will form gang etc. Shooting at people they dont like without reflecting upon themselve first. Some are just being oblivious of their comments being sarcastic. Some are just plain rich and free, can chiong down everytime and everywhere and be the first to grab and BOAST about it. Some are just plain sour cause they are not as rich or free as the others.

Everyone at sometime will be the above mentioned. Pride, oblivious, ignorant, jealousy are part of the driving force. But u also cant deny these people at the same time are humble and helpful person.

Think the next time we should reflect first before engaging into tongue war, boasting around, commenting without going through our thick skull. Be very OPEN to new ideas and criticism.

Me when i am writing the above, i am thinking if i am being to direct or hash. Am i being too sterotype and categorise everyone as being bad. but who can deny they are always good too.

Most importantly, forum is for sharing our knowledge. To help and to learn.

You deny people of these, the forum will shrink. In the end you are denying yourself the same benefits.

Cocky+Ignorant+Oblivious against Cocky+Ignorant+Oblivious = Tongue War

Cocky+Ignorant+Oblivious against Ignorant+Oblivious = Tug of War

Cocky+Ignorant+Oblivious against Humble+Oblivious = Others Chiup into the War.

Cocky+Ignorant+Oblivious against Humble = Don even know they are in a war

[reeflax]

Ahhhh..... I see a similar pattern happening here that has struck a planted forum in Singaore two years ago. How sad....

Very soon, you will see at most 20 post a day and sharing of knowledge will be a thing of the past.

Prior to the popularity of the hobby, hobbist are more receptive to ideas and suggestion because they want to learn new ways or methods of improving.

Now, everyone has their own way and the ONLY way towards reefing. If you are not in the same 'league' as me, u are either a newbie or your system are sub-standard, thus we have nothing to talk about.

Groups start to form, friendship established and everyone started calling each other 'BROTHER' . But how well do u people know each other other than you are in the same hobby????

Then idea starts to differ and 'BANG!!!' The rest is history.

Once a group has been formed and true friendship found, sharing of knowledge is through private meeting and not on the net anymore. Very soon lobang of shipment will only be given to a selected few.

This is reality!!!!! Sad but True.

[Rocks]

After reading AT’s view on the trend of behavior in SRC lately, I share the same sentiment, being a young SRC member myself (2 months only), I find this forum to be useful especially for newbie like myself to learn and search for reefing information.

I do pick up lots of useful techniques, methods of reefing from the more experience reefers here but lately I noticed that there isn’t a lots of serious discussion about reefkeeping, now a days, most thread are dominated by “small talk” be it jokes, or other unrelated comments, etc. (I think most, if not all of us including myself, are guilty) and these make the thread (replies) to be ridiculously long which makes it very hard to find quality information discussed in the thread without having to follow through the hundreds of replies.. (Keyword search isn’t really helpful sometimes).

Maybe some kind of control can be imposed..

(Its just my opinion, hope nobody get offended).

[planetg]

let's face it and i'm guilty as well of being a Singaporean (only from a certain point of view. for your info, i still sing mari kita when watching NDP!!!

nothing wrong being a Singaporean. we want the best, will queue for the best and will fight for the best.

comparing now and then is a like comparing educaton when i was in primary school and kids now in primary.

how to compare?

we used to catch grasshoppers, have fun, buy 10cents ice cream, dirty our schools from muddy fields, buy tikum. there wasn't any montesorri, kumon or what have u?

yes we have rich friends or shd i say kids who are well-off. they carry new bags, wear new football shoes. yes we are jealous but we play soccer, we have fun and treat all equally.

do we really get mad abt u being rich, have more ice cream sticks or rubber? even at that time, spending money on rubber or ice-cream is still ok right?

now what have the kids? mobile phones, game boys, pokemon, etc... they become more competitive. spend so much time on violin, drama, ballet, piano, tuition.

what happens?

people set up drama schools, DIY tuition, teach violin and piano to make money right? does it sound familiar? can u afford to change mobile phones all the time like we do with rubber?

we're driven by market conditions. if u are a parent and found a tuition school cheaper with same results, why not switch your loyalty? gone were the days when we stick to our 'family' tuition teacher!!!

i wonder if readers can relate to this change in environment or are the kids in here too young. don't get me wrong? no offence to kids or younger reefers. i envy u for having such a competitive environment to live in. u waste no time, fight for the best and be the best.

if you think i'm bullshitting, switch off and chill! else reflect.

give reefers who can spend a break,

give reefers who are willing to be ugly a break

give LFS who are bringing in quality stuff respect

give LFS who are giving u good service respect

you choose your life! juz like i choose to be disappointed with several reefers and LFS and i still habour hope that i'll change my opinion soon.

sorry for being cynical

[surfedelic]

We need the pillars - the seniors' involvements

[Acanthurus pyroferus]

*gulp*

I feel that SRC is being "dominated" by a few reefers who are active members and can afford or are willing to spend huge amounts of money on this hobby. These reefers have the best equipments and can afford to cehong and get the best livestocks... People respect them and envy them because of their nice tanks, which is "bought". This made their ego swell to gargantuan proportions.

Many presume that just because a particular reefer has a nice tank, he has to be one of the most knowledgeable with best husbandry skills etc. But it is merely because they are willing to spend loads of money on their tank. As many are presumptious of these reefers' knowledge and abilities, these reefers' ego swell more...

When there is a clash of ideas between these reefers and others or amongst this group of reefers, both parties are usually very insistent on their idealogies and are unwilling to back down. This is largely because of pride... They are too arrogant to be proved wrong.

Pride has gotten the best of many of us.. SRC is all about exchanging experiences and knowledge. There is no dishonour in being misinformed and proved wrong. Isn't that what we're here for in the first place? To share knowledge and correct misinformation?

This is just my honest opinion.. No harm intended. Do not wish to be flamed for this... peace

oh, and if you're wondering why I'm awake at this hour... haha, I'm studying for my exams... not sleeping otherwise I won't be able to wake later lol.

what RYZ says is true to the brightest light that can be shown true some of the topics discussed and explained in some of the threads. First of all this forum has come to be about showing off the most expensive kind of equipment and gadjets that are out of reach for some fellow reefers. Is this a place to woe....big time reefers or does it cater for all walks of hobbyist? If you have a low grade skimmer everyone will convince you have the pits and worse of all pm's will travel warning other reefers not to get that particular brand? Is that how we work behind our threads?

Second thing is where shipment is concerned , everyone wants to be there even before a shipment arrives which is by all means fair and square since they have the time and right contacts to have access to the right "cherry pickings" as one calls it but behaviour wise is incredible when it comes to good stuff. If there are so many LFS around why isn't there less crowds at any one given time when a shipment arrives? Why?....because we are typical Singaporeans aren't we? Get the best regardless of consequences.Regardless of fellow reefers , regardless of damaging the live stock and regardless of even ones own dignity.

Boss , you know and you've been around....what I agree with Alan is the freedom of speech thing which is limited where some LFS are concerned is unmentioneable due to some unforseen circumstances but to us buying reefers we don't want to get caught up in that and not be afraid to say any LFS name provided it's in good favour and taste. Flaming a certain LFS should also be banned and kept to ourselves. It is disgusting to say "I had a so and so experience in this place and the owner was like so and so.....simple just don't go there again!

And last thing is about constructive criticism in any fellow reefers thread and the grouping of so called "gangs" that has recently cropped up. If a conversation is between 2 reefers .... it should stay between 2 reefers unless a moderator steps in or you yourself boss. This has now come to a division of groups which makes it even more uncomfortable even going to the LFS. Every thread should be respected and discussion should be maintained and strictly adhered to and not degrading criticsm which will offend newbies and senior reefers alike.

[Achilles Tang]

Wow! Amazing response! Let's hear it from the old-timers.... I am sure they have a lot more to say.

[neokn]

IMHO

1. As alanseah, have mentioned on the first sentence. This ISN'T a commercial forum, it's just a HOBBYIST forum for exchange of ideas and experience (May it be good or bad). By having so call "BANNED" name LFS and etc... SRC have make itself "COMMERCIAL". I just hope that it doesn't turn out like HWZ forum, after some big time importer and distributor deceided to "sponsor" there are some many damn rules that most of the senior forum members just feel disgusted and left the forum permanently.

2. There is absolutely no way for moderator or whoever to stop the forming of "gangs" and "sub-club" whichin a free forum. I guess the best way would be to educated them (forumer) to stop the flaming and start the reefing. If this wouldn't do, stop the thread by all means. (Don't wait until it was 13 pages long)

3. I join this forumer because I saw thread that are being answer and reply. I needed this as I am new to marine. Thus, I really hope that fellow SRCers can reframe for giving "jump into conlusion" or "assume"(As this make an "###### out of U and ME") answer.

[flubberina13]

2. There is absolutely no way for moderator or whoever to stop the forming of "gangs" and "sub-club" whichin a free forum. I guess the best way would be to educated them (forumer) to stop the flaming and start the reefing. If this wouldn't do, stop the thread by all means. (Don't wait until it was 13 pages long)

good one...neokn...especially the 'ASSUME'...

From the thread starter, that it has over-run its course...

And I do agree about the 'gangs' thing...afterall, when we get to know each other better...naturally friendship will form.

[kschew1498]

Well said......

I am guilty to some of this as well.....

Honestly, myself (and a couple of reefers) were kind of finding this forum a bit "Sian" (boring).

Nowadays, I only screen through some of the "educative thread", reefing problems that I associate myself with, and the members' tanks forum. And honestly, when I see a couple of thread by a couple of reefers, I tell myself to just flip through to see some pics. they posted....because most of it are "Bo Liao" (Boring) conversational.

I think that I am also wrong on my part. I could have also share a bit of my experience to the newbies even though I have only 10 months of reefing experience.

In fact, I was very very sad to hear this from a very senior reefer when I was at Benz house (during the take over of his tanks).......he said that SRC is damp boring with all stupid question and that he felt sick of repeating himself to these question! .....I was so sad because I was a newbie at that time!!! I sure wish that some of these “Old Bird” can log in occasionally to share their vast knowledge of reefing.

The other thing I notice is that.......some reefers here seem like they are competing with each other on their stuffs....be it equipments or LS......my opinion, this hobby isnt about spending money.

A reefer (a good friend whom I know from SRC) ever call me that this LFS that LFS have this and that and that this reefer have already got this......I told him off without any ill meaning...."These reefers are merely completing with each other". I really regret what I said and I dont know if I have offend this good friend of mine (a reefer as well). I believe he is merely trying to tell me that there are some nice LS coming in. Sigh! I guess I am just to straight about what I said.....or was I jealous about them?

But then again, you learn from this people as well......they got money to experiment with different ways and means to perfect their reef tank.

Anyway, lets keep our ego! Ego can be blind oneself and can be very deafening and it can be very destructive however we should have our pride in what ever we do as well…..but don’t let it carry you away too much. By the way....let be forgiving as well.....

[Acanthurus pyroferus]

IMHO

1. As alanseah, have mentioned on the first sentence. This ISN'T a commercial forum, it's just a HOBBYIST forum for exchange of ideas and experience (May it be good or bad). By having so call "BANNED" name LFS and etc... SRC have make itself "COMMERCIAL". I just hope that it doesn't turn out like HWZ forum, after some big time importer and distributor deceided to "sponsor" there are some many damn rules that most of the senior forum members just feel disgusted and left the forum permanently.

2. There is absolutely no way for moderator or whoever to stop the forming of "gangs" and "sub-club" whichin a free forum. I guess the best way would be to educated them (forumer) to stop the flaming and start the reefing. If this wouldn't do, stop the thread by all means. (Don't wait until it was 13 pages long)

3. I join this forumer because I saw thread that are being answer and reply. I needed this as I am new to marine. Thus, I really hope that fellow SRCers can reframe for giving "jump into conlusion" or "assume"(As this make an "###### out of U and ME") answer.

*2. There is absolutely no way for moderator or whoever to stop the forming of "gangs" *

it's about intervening during a discussion gone wrong or escalating into a heated argument..... not prevention of "gangs" or "sub-club" thats out of their hands.

[neokn]

Just to address some comment by fellow SRCers. *PEACE*

[alanseah]

well as for this gang thing I have no against on it... we all know some how deal to those "chemical" thing we are closer to some and not other (not because they r bad or what)

But do bear in mind this is a public forum for exchange of knowledge in reef and not gang gather forum and only talk in your gang thread only while others out of your gang asking for help u only tease them or laugh at them or whatever

[weileong]

*PEACE* means no personal insults or attack or wanting to have the last words so that the person can feel that he had something over the other party. This can easily be achieve by some self-control and not getting too emotional.

The MODS cannot be sitting in front of the PC the whole day, they don't earn a living by surfing/looking after SRC. At the end of the day it is still up to the reefers in SRC to exercise some self-control.

[Acanthurus pyroferus]

well as for this gang thing I have no against on it... we all know some how deal to those "chemical" thing we are closer to some and not other (not because they r bad or what)

But do bear in mind this is a public forum for exchange of knowledge in reef and not gang gather forum and only talk in your gang thread only while others out of your gang asking for help u only tease them or laugh at them or whatever

agree...absolutely

I think we had better shape-up to not make any more unpleasantness but instead thrive to get a better forum going.....to those I have offended in anyway........

A BIG PEACE and APOLOGY.....

[Dispar_Anthias]

IMO... there are really no such gang forming up........ hope you guys knows the defination of a gang and a group of close frens

Actually this forum is starting to become a sinagpore wet market, ppl use it to sell their stuff, browse to see whats for sale rather than using it as a educational place to have a head start for their tank

Hmm small boi with super equipment.... whose tat???