** IMPORTANT : PLS READ!!! **

[BarraCudaTM]

each and everybody must be responsible for their own words

There is simply no reason for moderating negative comments if its true and not baseless

I would be willing to confront the LFS face to face if the LFS didnt agree with my comments.

[KingFish]

I'm a simple man, and hence my simple words:

FREEDOM OF SPEECH

DUTY OF CARE

DUE DILIGENCE

GENTLEMANLY CONDUCT

Go figure ...

[lonteoh]

I feel that the LFS should be more open about comments. When we complement some LFS, their business will definitely imporove as they find more reefer visiting their shop.

If some comments are negative, they should look back on themselves and find out why their customers are commenting them this way and try to change.

By calling the moderator and asking him to control the forum members really looks bad on the LFS.

[TTBoy]

Lets get all members and picket in front of lousy LFS.

[lonteoh]

Lets get all members and picket in front of lousy LFS.

i Second that

[BarraCudaTM]

Or we can post it out right which LFS we are not supposed to post negative comments in. Serve 2 purposes <_

[Achilles Tang]

Lets get all members and picket in front of lousy LFS.

Cool thing to do in other countries but in SG, you need to apply a license for it... lol!

[dodo]

each and everybody must be responsible for their own words

There is simply no reason for moderating negative comments if its true and not baseless

I would be willing to confront the LFS face to face if the LFS didnt agree with my comments.

YEAH!!!!!

[dodo]

Seems like a few LFS are quite unhappy abt the sharing that has been going on here... ie. bad experiences like being overcharged, sold defective or inadequate stuff, given bad advice, being treated rudely etc.

ask them to be in our position...should we be jumping wif joyafter we found out we are overcharged? or ask them if their child is being taught in school 1+1=11...r they going to accept it?

So feedback is a double-edged sword - the shops can choose to improve themselves after listening to feedback here or they can choose to be upset and make things difficult for everyone here.

obviously they choose the latter option

In the meantime, perhaps it would be prudent not to name names... use code or 'vague descriptions' if you must give negative feedback on LFS experiences.

i thk we shall practice tat in the future

Why is this LFS so scare of us making comments on him. He should be PROUD of his own actions.

What you do is what you get. Treat customer well and you will also be well.

[bawater]

If they had a hand in the sponsorship of SRC- maybe!

but just sitting back & saying GOOD comments are welcome but bad comments are unacceptable is utter...........communism. On my planet it is anyway.

So it is ok to say- purple nudis eat algae, dun worry if die- next week got new stock coming.

Ocellaris clowns are percula clowns. Only shop owner can tell the diff, but can't describe to me how?. I'm wrong, should keep quiet & just buy.Yeh! kiss my ........

Selling of sick fishes is acceptable.

Selling of half dead/ RTN corals is perfectly fine & acceptable.

Almost all fishes are reef safe- except triggers.

Bad comments arise from the service or quality of the LFS - if everything is well why should there be anything bad? of course there will be certain situations that arise- but if u follow SRC, if the LFS is good overall it will be protected by statements of fellow members.

If we stuck to many of the LFS advise & stock only with no sharing or comments, half of the ppl will still be keeping FO with undergravel filters ! if it worked in the 70's why not now?

We can't just comment about one & not the other when they all sell the same stuff?- again on my planet that's unfair,maybe unless the name of the shop is at the top.

So why do i only see a shop that does not even sell marine livestock but only equipment? i do respect that & i do buy from them.

sorry dino, i dun get the legal issues!

but i got one>

No shop names are mentioned in my personal view. yet!

All in Good Faith

Reef On

[spade]

3 cheers for bawater!

[UFO]

I always believed there's freedom of speech in Singapore......obviously not so

The legal issue too chim for me. But that shldn't discourage us to share & tell the truth, there are still many newbies (including me) out there that are not aware of these LFS.

AT, like u said we shld use code or something to ID those LFS. Wud appreciate if u cud create a list & PM everyone. For those good LFS, i'm sure they dun mind us mentioning their names.

THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE

[dodo]

AT,

Perhaps, you should ask them to join Defish/Clubfish in registering in TalkingCock.com.

And ask them to grow up as well

[Achilles Tang]

In the phone conversation, I was asked to put myself into their shoes!

I mean... if we chat in the Straits Times Forum... do you see SPH being called up and told to edit/delete those negative threads? I am sure there are much much more people reading those forums (hee hee... including ISD).

This is a hobby site for hobbyists. If we have an actual clubhouse, and we have a notice board where people can give their feedback etc.... it's the same thing!

The argument was "its the internet - the WHOLE world can see the negative comments." Yeah but... if you get GOOD comments - the WHOLE world can see it too!

Besides, we only have a few visitors from USA, Indonesia and Malaysia and New Zealand... they won't even know these LFS! It's just Singaporeans who know! And this is such a small country... are they gonna prevent us from physically meeting and calling each other up as we have been doing all along?

I understand that your comments made are affecting their ricebowl but that should highlight the ROOT of the PROBLEM. The LFS should solve THAT and IMPROVE their shop's reputation and they'll be praised till thy kingdom come!

The government has been trying to improve the service quality of retail outlets and service outlets in SG for a long time... courtesy campaign... haha... remember the lion? Courtesy and etiquette should be from within. Rudeness and charging $1800 for a sump (example) will only beget negative feedback!

What say you?

[divinesloth]

Hi, why don't we do reports like this:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 07 Mar 03

Time: 15:30

Loaction: Bukit Cina

Shop: Don't Complaint Me Marine Fish Trading

On the day, time and location stated above, the boss of the LFS told me that adding urine into your marine tank will enhance your Luo Han's color....yada yada yada.... and charged me $50 for a packet of the boss's pee. The usual price of a bag of pee elsewhere is $10.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Noticed that I did not post anything bad about the shop, the event was stated objectively and up to the reader to judge. A reader's reply would probably be:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Divinesloth

I think you are overcharged for that packet of pee...why don't you buy mine for $5. I drink orange juice everyday thus its vitamin C enriched.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Sloth

I agree....that shop overcharged you.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Will I still get sued? I hope not ;p

Cheers

[Achilles Tang]

Divinesloth....

Luohans are not kept in marine tanks... but we get the idea.

[NormanH]

AT,

Should invite him to personally post a thread here to tell us off.

[divinesloth]

Divinesloth....

Luohans are not kept in marine tanks... but we get the idea.

What! Luo Hans are not kept in marine tank??? No wonder my mum's LH is not moving in my marine tank....tot it was sleeping

[Sharky]

Hmm…I noticed that a recent threat concerning a particular LFS has been removed from the forum. And I believe too that the owner’s name can scarcely be found in this forum at the time of this posting.........

[Achilles Tang]

? I dun remember deleting any such post. Pls PM me to refresh my memory. Thanks!

[dodo]

Hmm…I noticed that a recent threat concerning a particular LFS has been removed from the forum. And I believe too that the owner’s name can scarcely be found in this forum at the time of this posting.........

hmmmm....tis gives me some indication...r u the owner mentioned in the thread?

[Sharky]

Dodo...Ahahahaha...welcome to my shop...buy one get 10 free....nope....I'm just the owner of two humble marine tanks.

[dodo]

glad to hear tat...butta i still got suspicion..................

ok...better dun say(nothing concerning u, sharky )

[pospeh]

I am a lawyer (though not qualified under Singapore), and speaking from general knowledge

FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE POSTER

Truth is an absolute defense 99% of the time. The major exception being when you disclose personal facts that intrude upon a persons privacy. i.e., saying that a person has VD publicly.

The good faith protection is not a good defense. This basically means that you are wrong on the facts but you acted in good faith. For one thing, the matter discussed has to be one of general public interest (i.e, government affairs). I doubt discussions about a LFS comes to that level.

So its best to keep your postings to FACTS only.

FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF THE BOARD OWNER

Board operators can be liable for defamatory statements posted on their boards. This is especially true if a notice has been made that defamatory have been made on the board.

So once you are on notice that (maybe) defamatory statements are being published, and you dont take reasonable acts to deal with it, you could be abetting the defamation.

What is reasonable action to deal with the complaint is very subjective, though.

To be safe though, owners just commonly delete threads dealing with the subject being complained about.

Conclusion: The likelihood of being involved in a lawsuit is probably very low, but nobody wants to take the chance to being sued, so they comply with the demand/complaints.

[Achilles Tang]

I understand that defamatory comments can be proven if the TRUTH wasn't told and CAN be determined.

But if posters speak the FACTS as they have experienced it themselves. How does the plaintiff decide whether it's defamatory or not?

Yes, as a board owner, if someone makes an outright defamatory remark: eg. Phewbacca is a hairy slimeball because he cheats people by claiming to be a real wookie... and I KNOW for a FACT that that is so untrue... coz he's a NOT real wookie and can be proven with DNA tests... and I allow the posting to continue, I understand that I may be abetting the accuser's statement if I choose to ignore a legal notice from the Wookie's lawyers who CAN prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Phewbacca is a bonafide wookie.

Ok ok... to make it simpler... I walk into a shop and bought a book... I was told by the sales person that this book is so rare and good that he charges $100 for it. I bought it because I was convinced. I walk into the next bookstore and I see the same book at only $20! I went back and confronted the owner and he was extremely rude to me... told me to fly kite.

I got so mad, I went back to my Book Club and told everyone of my bad experience. The $100 bookstore owner is furious I did it... what are his legal rights and what can he do??

As a board owner, does this mean that everytime I received a legal notice, means that I am obligated to take action to appease the offended party/lawyers? Do board owners get arm-twisted so easily just to avoid the hassle?

I don't mind the inconvenience of going to court to support the poster (if what he says is the truth).

The easy way out for me to avoid hassles, of course, is to simply amend all the names mentioned to obscure code or vague descriptions.

But I forsee that this will cause even worse damage to the LFS reputation as people will still KNOW who that is... people are not stupid.