Expert help needed on DSB...

[RAV-65]

Hi all,

Currently planning my new tank and would like to ask a few questions... taking into consideration that I intend to stock the tank pretty heavily with fishes and have intention to keep LPS/SPS :

1> Would it be better for DSB to be deployed in the main tank or the sump? Why?

2> Wat sized sand would be the best for DSB? #0 or #1? Have read around SRC dat #0 would be better, but it seems that in RC, they recommend #1 (sugar-sized sand)

3> If the DSB is deployed in the sump, would it be ineffective if the water flows over the top of the DSB very quickly?

4> how much diff is there when I use a 6" DSB and a 8" DSB?

5> I got very low nitrates (2.5ppm) in my 3 feet tank currently when the DSB in my main tank is not even 6 months old, am I just lucky? or has the DSB helped? Understand dat the DSB takes 6 months to mature.

6> I'm planning to have a 4-5 feet sump, is having about 1.5-2 feet length of DSB too short? Plan to have a 6 feet tank.

Any advise/tricks/tips in keeping a DSB would be greatly appreciated too!

Vincent Ho

[RAV-65]

Somebody!!! Help!!!

Vincent Ho

[ReDDeviLs]

im not an expert surely,but i henry told me that a mixture of grade 0 and 1 is the best as that is what it is in the sea.. that was when i ask him about dsb when upgrading to my present tank.

[typrobin]

i remember someone said that if the DBS is not a wide as the main tank it won't be efficient enuf....u might wanna have it in your main tank as well as in sump....

as for your low nitrate now, it might be due to your H&S....basically the equation works this way,

dissolved organic compound > ammonia > nitrite > nitrate

so if DOC is low, theorethically, nitrate will be low too....so i suggest u might wanna invest in a SUPER HUGE DUAL BECKETT to skim out watever DOC that is present in your tank....

although H&S is a powerful skimmer, wat i heard is that it has low turnover rate, therefore there might be a danger in tank crash....the skimmer is not able to cope with the high die-offs....

remember to use netting to seperate the bottom 3-4inches of your DSB from the top layer so that there wont' be any disturbance....

[RAV-65]

Would the netting greally help? Read abt it, but was told it's not true... Anyone can confirm?

Vincent Ho

[typrobin]

Would the netting greally help? Read abt it, but was told it's not true... Anyone can confirm?

Vincent Ho

hehehe....actually that was wat i heard....no real evidence.....

monkey see monkey do loh....

[RAV-65]

Currently, in my 3 feet tank, I'm using about a DSB in the maintank, the #0 is at the bottom, with #1 sand on top.... but it seems dat only the part the #1 sand is got bubbles ( supposed to be nitrogen gas ), the lower part of the sandbed do not have bubbles... dat's why I'm curious to know...

[ben]

netting wont help as fishes will bite them off after time passes. Worse u will see pieces of net floating around catching things u dont want it to see it done. If u want dsb, it will help but not necessary help. nobody can tell u which is better as only bacterias can tell u that. We are not up that level yet.

bubbles does not means nitrogen. it can means oxygen/carbon dioxide from microalgae. Why dont u take that sample and do some lab test. Then we will know whats that, hehe. No need for guessing game.

1) It depend whether u want dsb or not. Its just another source of home for bacteria. The thicker it is the happier the bacteria is. But it will be very dirty and cause other problems after certain time. So sand sifting creatures come in but they do create another shit too. They will dirty again the sand and kill some of the hard growing bacteria.

Best to have the sand in the sump but it depends too as thats another big cost and troublesome when u trying to feed your corals in the main display tank.

I have seen some setup have no sumps and no dsb but yet their systems are very very stable.

2) this is src so u will hear grade 0. Why? This is a disease.

Nobody can tell which grade except bacteria

3) It all depends on the flow rate and only bacteria knows.

Flowing over it still will do something.

4) Nobody can tell u how thick whether 6" or 8". U can place 12" if u are kiasu. The thicker the better as its a source of home to bacteria.

5) DSB never matures 6 mths nor anything else. Your system on bacteria matures depends on the whole setup, they depends on LR, sump, dsb, water flow rate, food for bacteria, .......

If u start stocking up the tank every 2 week for 1 fish up to 100 fishes, your system wont be mature at all even 5 yrs. Nitrate is taken away by bacteria. If too less bacteria, how to process of these nitrates. Bacterias grows depends on quantity of home and food. Home means LR, sump, dsb, .... I have seen ppl dont have some of these things and still have good system. Ad there is one guy who has only LR!

6) Pls refer to all above. I dont talk to bacteria so I wont know. I think there is nobody can talk to them yet until today, hehe. Joking.

Nobody can really tell u th advise on keeping/tricks/tips on dsb. If he say can, perhaps he is god or he is a giant bacteria

U can check out on websites for better details. Before my setup for 5 feet, I have surveyed the whole website for 3 mths!!! everyday for 6 hrs on weekdays and weekends for 10 hrs!!! But to tell u the truth, nobody can tell u the best methods. Too many types of arguments. Too many mr. alex the experts. But after checking so many hundreds of sites, a conclusion, u will roughly know whats going on and what you yourself want.

Hopes this helps and u will appreciate it as I have wrote this too long. Next time u must remember to sell online must sell cheaper to me, LOL. Joking.

[RAV-65]

netting wont help as fishes will bite them off after time passes. Worse u will see pieces of net floating around catching things u dont want it to see it done. If u want dsb, it will help but not necessary help. nobody can tell u which is better as only bacterias can tell u that. We are not up that level yet.

bubbles does not means nitrogen. it can means oxygen/carbon dioxide from microalgae. Why dont u take that sample and do some lab test. Then we will know whats that, hehe. No need for guessing game.

1) It depend whether u want dsb or not. Its just another source of home for bacteria. The thicker it is the happier the bacteria is. But it will be very dirty and cause other problems after certain time. So sand sifting creatures come in but they do create another shit too. They will dirty again the sand and kill some of the hard growing bacteria.

Best to have the sand in the sump but it depends too as thats another big cost and troublesome when u trying to feed your corals in the main display tank.

I have seen some setup have no sumps and no dsb but yet their systems are very very stable.

2) this is src so u will hear grade 0. Why? This is a disease.

Nobody can tell which grade except bacteria

3) It all depends on the flow rate and only bacteria knows.

Flowing over it still will do something.

4) Nobody can tell u how thick whether 6" or 8". U can place 12" if u are kiasu. The thicker the better as its a source of home to bacteria.

5) DSB never matures 6 mths nor anything else. Your system on bacteria matures depends on the whole setup, they depends on LR, sump, dsb, water flow rate, food for bacteria, .......

If u start stocking up the tank every 2 week for 1 fish up to 100 fishes, your system wont be mature at all even 5 yrs. Nitrate is taken away by bacteria. If too less bacteria, how to process of these nitrates. Bacterias grows depends on quantity of home and food. Home means LR, sump, dsb, .... I have seen ppl dont have some of these things and still have good system. Ad there is one guy who has only LR!

6) Pls refer to all above. I dont talk to bacteria so I wont know. I think there is nobody can talk to them yet until today, hehe. Joking.

Nobody can really tell u th advise on keeping/tricks/tips on dsb. If he say can, perhaps he is god or he is a giant bacteria

U can check out on websites for better details. Before my setup for 5 feet, I have surveyed the whole website for 3 mths!!! everyday for 6 hrs on weekdays and weekends for 10 hrs!!! But to tell u the truth, nobody can tell u the best methods. Too many types of arguments. Too many mr. alex the experts. But after checking so many hundreds of sites, a conclusion, u will roughly know whats going on and what you yourself want.

Hopes this helps and u will appreciate it as I have wrote this too long. Next time u must remember to sell online must sell cheaper to me, LOL. Joking.

Thanxs for the lengthy answer bro!!

Anyone got other experiences to share?

Vincent Ho

[minsmarine]

Gee, your 3' tank is same age as mime and you are upgrading again. What kind of neighbor friend I though I should be first to know. Ha Ha best wish for your new project.

My NO3 is almost 0 after my DSB reached to 9" at the back and 6" in front. Kindda dirty but so far very stable

Just installed 3' sump and looking great.

Follow Ben, I surf the net for DSB, Sump and external filters from night till morning every day, so far no conclution. All are just their experiences. It's because there are too many parameters to consider. LS, LR, DSB, Filter, Size, Light.

Wonder if there will be someone have enough cash to test the systems which are just slightly different on those parameters and post the result. May be AT fit for the job

[terryansimon]

I use Grade #0 for my DSB and it probably is a mistake as I've read that many people locally use a mixture of Grade #1 and #0. if I can remember correctly, it has something to do with the compacting of sand.

the net method is okay to a certain extent as it does prevent sand sifting fishes like gobies going too deep into the anaerobic area of the sand bed. I think AT uses that method if I'm not wrong. or was it bwilly. you may want to check with them.

a DSB isn't really necessary *I feel* people have used the Berlin method *no sand bed, just live rocks and a kick-###### skimmer* and they have negligible nitrate amounts. other people like me combine it with a nutrient export system to maximise the use of natural processes to remove NO3s. and so far, I've been having 5ppm NO3 in my tank *do remember my tank is a heavily stocked tank, with 5 Bartlett anthias. the amount of feeding required is perversed...up to six times a day* and my tank is less than 6 months old only. frequent water changes also help in that amount I suppose....

DSBs need to have the same suface area of the tank to be highly effective. but DSB of any size is better than no DSB if you ask me. (= then again, the purist will argue that with the small footprint allocated for the small DSB, can be used as a water reservoir or something along those lines. they can argue until the cows come home, but the views will always be different from each other. (=

and fast water flowing over the top of the DSB shouldn't be too much of a problem. you should be more worried if water flows THROUGH the DSB rather than OVER the DSB. if water flows THROUGH the DSB, you defeat the purpose of creating an anaerobic environment for the nitrate reducing bacteria. (=

my two cents.

[minsmarine]

I used #3 20Kg and #0 40Kg for main tank and #1 7Kg for sump. Since I add on 10kg more afew week back, my external filter need to work very very hard. You could hear noise from upstair

Well, I am bit of kiasu,

I have External Filter UGF, DSB and 2' Sump. Cause I'd overstocked LS

[Domino]

Hi!

I'm currently putting the pieces together for my small sump and I refered mainly to this site:

http://www.reef-eden.com/DSBs.htm

This Guy has got an interesting concept of controled flow rate for the DSB compartment. He argues (and it sounds logical) that the DSB comparment should not cope with the total flowrate of the sump. you can fin many ways of isolating the DSB so that you can determine how much flowrate you wnat to get through the compartment. the slower the flow the more time for osmosis to take place efficeinetly. his DIY project:

http://www.reef-eden.com/diy_4.htm

Personally I find the under pass in that design a bit complicated to make and clean eventualy. you can also make a side water passage... no need to have it running under. I plan using an overhead siphon to level the first and last compartment... I'll start a thread on the subject soon.

[blueheaven]

1) It depend whether u want dsb or not. Its just another source of home for bacteria. The thicker it is the happier the bacteria is. But it will be very dirty and cause other problems after certain time. So sand sifting creatures come in but they do create another shit too. They will dirty again the sand and kill some of the hard growing bacteria.

Best to have the sand in the sump but it depends too as thats another big cost and troublesome when u trying to feed your corals in the main display tank.

2) this is src so u will hear grade 0. Why? This is a disease.

Nobody can tell which grade except bacteria

3) It all depends on the flow rate and only bacteria knows.

Flowing over it still will do something.

4) Nobody can tell u how thick whether 6" or 8". U can place 12" if u are kiasu. The thicker the better as its a source of home to bacteria.

6) Pls refer to all above. I dont talk to bacteria so I wont know. I think there is nobody can talk to them yet until today, hehe. Joking.

Nobody can really tell u th advise on keeping/tricks/tips on dsb. If he say can, perhaps he is god or he is a giant bacteria

WRONG!!!!!

1)Not the Thicker the happier the bacteria is. You have to understand that as you go deeper into the sandbed, different levels of oxygen is present and different types of bacteria exists. At the top, there are aerobic bacteria and these convert nitrites to nitrates. The middle portion will contain anaerobic bacteria and these convert the nitrates to nitrogen gas and is released as gas bubbles. But at a level where oxygen is the least or not present at all, there will be anoxic bacteria with will convert the substances to ammonium which is a fuel for algae. This layer is usually seen as black as there will be a build up of hydrogen sulfate which is toxic (stinks too!). Yes, more sand = more space for bacteria but there must be a limit too. And NEVER put a sand shifter into the sand bed as this will cause pandemonium int the sump. Actually, a mature DSB not only contains bacteria but an array of interesting creatures like pods, worms, flatworms etc. If you mange to keep a good and functioning sandbed, the pods can even be food for corals and fishes too!

2)I strongly recommend using Grade 0 sand as it contains the largest surface area you can provide. A person called Leng Sy founded the way of using mud in the fuge and you know that the grain size of mud is way small. So if you cannot make a decision, just use Grade 0 and Grade 1 (like me). Basically, grade 0 grows more bacteria and grade 1 grows more pods

3)The flowrate actually constitutes to how much oxygen is diffused into the sandbed itself as the higher the flowrate, the amount of oxygen diffusion is lesser. The bacteria do not care what flowrate you give it, but only on how much oxygen it has.

4)I am an assistant in a Life Sciences Research Lab and i deal with bacteria all the time and i can proudly say that humans have already understood bacteria and even has the ability to control them. Just to let you know!

[terryansimon]

good answer. (=

[Reefaholic]

Well,

I am a big fan of Antony Calfo. I remember from his book, he did mentioned on certain grade of sand are meant for certain bacteria.

The following types of substrates used are have the following purposes.

1. Coarse substrate (grade 3 to 5) (encouraging amphipods and larger plankton)

2. Medium/fine substrate (grade 1 to 3) (encouring smaller live plankton species such as copepods.

3. Deepsugar fine substrate (grade 0 to 1) (enhance denitification)

4. Living sponges (filter feeder extravaganza) Suitable for refugium.

To his personal experience, fine sand is best kept at the main display tank and coarse sand for refugium. Mixing is not recommended as it distracts planktons in the compromised layers.

Just some extracts from his books.

[blueheaven]

In my sump, i actually split it into 2 parts and the sand are separated my a glass partition 4" high. So the sand does not have any physical mixing :lol:

Yes, I will love to setup a cryptic refugium where all the sponges, tunicates and filter feeders thrive!!!

IMO smaller grain sizes are more suitable to be placed in the sump as:

1) There is more surface area for a DSB

2) It will not be visually appleasing for a display tank

3) Sandstorms are more serious

[tineng]

i have a small tank without DSB, as it looks very odd on a tank that is only 1 feet high....don't have much rocks and uses a primz skimmer and a canister filter....however, after 4 months i was able to keep Nitrate level to undectable....IMHO, i think reduce feeding would go a long way in keeping nitrate level very low....i have only 3 fishes and feed 1 cube of brine shrimp over a 3 day period (little bit twice a day), the food never stay in the water more then 5 second....the fishes does not show signs of distress....in fact they grew fatter and fatter....

[blueheaven]

yah but this does not apply to those having big tanks with lots of fishes.

IMO there is no such thing about bioload but more of space and territories

[RAV-65]

Yeah, I do agree that there are different schools of thought and from some of the posts I read, some of the ideas, concepts and experiences shared are real good....

Thanxs bros!!!

Vincent Ho

[ben]

WRONG!!!!!

1)Not the Thicker the happier the bacteria is. You have to understand that as you go deeper into the sandbed, different levels of oxygen is present and different types of bacteria exists. At the top, there are aerobic bacteria and these convert nitrites to nitrates. The middle portion will contain anaerobic bacteria and these convert the nitrates to nitrogen gas and is released as gas bubbles. But at a level where oxygen is the least or not present at all, there will be anoxic bacteria with will convert the substances to ammonium which is a fuel for algae. This layer is usually seen as black as there will be a build up of hydrogen sulfate which is toxic (stinks too!). Yes, more sand = more space for bacteria but there must be a limit too. And NEVER put a sand shifter into the sand bed as this will cause pandemonium int the sump. Actually, a mature DSB not only contains bacteria but an array of interesting creatures like pods, worms, flatworms etc. If you mange to keep a good and functioning sandbed, the pods can even be food for corals and fishes too!

2)I strongly recommend using Grade 0 sand as it contains the largest surface area you can provide. A person called Leng Sy founded the way of using mud in the fuge and you know that the grain size of mud is way small. So if you cannot make a decision, just use Grade 0 and Grade 1 (like me). Basically, grade 0 grows more bacteria and grade 1 grows more pods

3)The flowrate actually constitutes to how much oxygen is diffused into the sandbed itself as the higher the flowrate, the amount of oxygen diffusion is lesser. The bacteria do not care what flowrate you give it, but only on how much oxygen it has.

4)I am an assistant in a Life Sciences Research Lab and i deal with bacteria all the time and i can proudly say that humans have already understood bacteria and even has the ability to control them. Just to let you know!

I wonders why people still got no cure and died. LOL. The doctor killed them? Or the bio-chemist poisoned their patients?

[terryansimon]

because you already said it yourself. got no cure, therefore die lah. simple equation of life.

[blueheaven]

Ok this is for ben....

Those that infect organisms are viruses and not bacteria so do not get mixed up.

Anyway, regarding DSB, all i can say is that it is not as simple as it seems.

There are many types of setups, plenums and all but the final design and method of use is all up to you to decide. That's why I got up with the idea of doing a fuge with different grain sizes to optimize the usage.

In a DSB, there are many factors to consider and not just dumping sand in and expect it to run smoothly. From what I know, a DSB if properly maintained, is a key to success in a confined reef.

[Achilles Tang]

I would like to remind those who are not 100% sure / without data or comprehensive feedback from other hobbyists to refrain from giving out advice to other newbies.

We are supposed to teach and give sound advice based on logic, facts & good reasoning... not give dubious illogical answers.