How to Test a Skimmer

[tineng]

Hi Tineng,

Analysis of DOC is a bit expensive as it has to be sent to a proper laboratory so a cheaper way is to do a last man standing contest as it will show how effective the skimmer is in squeezing out the last drop of DOC.

Dun think the last skimmer standing idea would be fair, because tank condition is different the the skimmer that is still skimmer at the end of the day might won because there are simply too high a level of DOC in the tank...

Measurement of some DOC values will likely be more accurate....but unless someone has access to the neccessary lab equipment, I guess it cannot be done....

[AlfaRomeo]

tineng, it will not be an issue if all the skimmer is skimming the same body of water at the same time. The last skimmer that is still pulling out junk would be the clear indication that its more sensitive and pulling out more junk than the rest... thus the best skimmer?

[Maxima]

ianj:

i get your point also..

that's why we must be careful not to intentionally weaken the beckett capabilities by using a small size pump...

eg...if use a 50W pump to drive a beckett and 50W pump to drive a needlewheel, i think the beckett is at a disadvantage and this is something we should avoid..

we should let beckett have the best conditions for operation..

if you use a very good pressure rated pump to drive a beckett to let it work at near potential, then get use a needlewheel skimmer of a few pumps to match the wattage...

each working at their potential levels...we dun intentionally cripple one to aid the other...

but robe's perspective is also very correct, the last man standing is also a good method...

i just thought of including this wattage test since there will be a congregation of skimmers to play with 

I'm not too sure if I carry my points across with my message. I actually felt that how on earth can a single beckett of different reaction chamber using different pumps create different skimming capacity.

I believe Beckett is a great product, but I do feel if you run a very detail R&D test, it will zoom down to a specific dimension which a single beckett is most efficiency.

Take a look below of the sizing

___________________________________________

Aerofoamer 624 8"X8"X24" 50-250 Gal 900 gph

Aerofoamer 630 8"X8"X30" 100-500 Gal 1000 gph

Aerofoamer 820 10"X10"X20" 50-275 Gal 1000 gph

Aerofoamer 824 10"X10"X24" 50-500 Gal 1000 gph

Aerofoamer 830 10"X10"X30" 100-1000 Gal 1100 gph

Aerofoamer 848 10"X10"X48" 200-2000 Gal 1500 gph

________________________________________________

I'll take on a 848 single beckett rated for 1500G any day. As for a 824 or 820 I'll think it's fair fight.

Base on my Auotmotive R&D background and I believe some of the reefers are fans of tubo charge cars as well.

So a fuel injector inject fuel and is controllable base on pressure. The pressure is controled by the ECU-(stands for Enginee Control Unit) with a correct mix of AIR thru a normal air intake, supercharged(Mercedes) or Turbo Air intake. The ECU will be link by sensor that alternate the Air(oxygen) and fuel injection thru a preset Ratio. For example the ratio for economy, high throttle and full Turbo throttle. Needless to say the Rato of Air to fuel is different for different mode. For expensive cars, you have choice to choose your driving style and the ECU responses.

For people who do modification to their car, like using a Fuel line booster(increased pressure) to add more fuel. You get better power, but lots of back soot....as the air mix with fuel is not optimum. So the power increase is infact a louder enginee noise but minimum increase in efficiency.

SO back to the main topic. If you alternate different pumps, like MD40 for this Beckett and MD100RLT for another single Beckett. It only meant that the amount of water flushing thru the Beckett using the MD is for example(rough numbers) 2100L water & 700L Air/hr. As for the Larger single Beckett using a single Beckett will be 4500L water and 1000L Air/hr.

My point here is that both Beckett will perform differently, since the Water to Air mixture ratio is so different. So how can someone stated a larger Beckett perform better? Isn't there a optimum Air to Water rayio for skimming or is it a hit or miss?

I think there is a lot of arguement, on how much air and water ratio, but don;t you all both end up to the point that there's definitely a ratio that's optimum?

A Beckett is a Mechancial device, so is External Pump. So how can they varies the Air to water mix ratio correct, base on different sizing. A well design needle wheel will always have a mechanical design that is fix to create a right optimum water & air ratio. The size of chamber, needle wheel size and rpm. This can be measure with a Air suction meter. And this should be equal throughout all series of different sizes.

As I stated Beckett is great, but the stated capacity is to save consumer the wattage shock. I felt that if you want bigger capacity, it is not the pump nor the reaction chamber, but go for a dual or triple Beckett make more sense or differences in performance. But reefer want power savings$$$. who can effort a triple Beckett? A reminder that Beckett cannot open up ot close small like the modern Fuel injection and air suction of turbo to have the right air/water mixture. If someone can design a Electronic Controller to control a variable RPM pressure pump to run a beckett and have sensors fit into the chamber, there's no way a Beckett can be use for any chamber size and capacity.

I think we are being objective here and If any one have any insight that beside Deltec tested and ensure the water & air mixture is consistent, what other brand names did that? Just treat me as stupid, maybe every brands did this test? If they do................then how can they rate the Beckett the way they do without hiding something about efficiency?

Anyone can throw in some TECHNICAL inputs? As I might be wrong, but I only believe in a product that has sound tehcnical design, not just piecing this and that together.

Max

[roidan]

Take a look below of the sizing

___________________________________________

Aerofoamer 624  8"X8"X24" 50-250 Gal     900 gph      

Aerofoamer 630  8"X8"X30" 100-500 Gal     1000 gph  

Aerofoamer 820  10"X10"X20" 50-275 Gal    1000 gph        

Aerofoamer 824  10"X10"X24" 50-500 Gal    1000 gph 

Aerofoamer 830  10"X10"X30" 100-1000 Gal    1100 gph  

Aerofoamer 848  10"X10"X48" 200-2000 Gal    1500 gph                      

________________________________________________

I'll take on a 848 single beckett rated for 1500G any day. As for a 824 or 820 I'll think it's  fair fight.

bro, if i do not read wrongly, i think the 848 is rated for tanks from 200 to 2000 gallons... the 1500gph is the pump required for use with 848..

take 820 and 824, both use 1000gph pumps..

but because 820 chamber is 20inches high and 824 is 24inches high,

this additional socalled 4inches is the difference between 820 and 824

the 820 tank rating of 50-275gallons and the 824 tank rating of 50-500gallons

with the same pump required, the height difference of 4 inches resulted in max tank rating increase from 275gallons to 500 gallons...wow...wat a difference...

well, to me...all these are just candy numbers...

[Maxima]

bro, if i do not read wrongly, i think the 848 is rated for tanks from 200 to 2000 gallons... the 1500gph is the pump required for use with 848..

take 820 and 824, both use 1000gph pumps..

but because 820 chamber is 20inches high and 824 is 24inches high,

this additional socalled 4inches is the difference between 820 and 824

the 820 tank rating of 50-275gallons and the 824 tank rating of 50-500gallons

with the same pump required, the height difference of 4 inches resulted in max tank rating increase from 275gallons to 500 gallons...wow...wat a difference...

well, to me...all these are just candy numbers...

You are right rating is second last and pressure pump size is last.

Thanks for the reminder,

Max

[roidan]

hehe...no problem

but seriously i have great doubts with the manufacturer's numbers that with the same pump required, the height difference of 4 inches can result in max tank rating increase from 275gallons to 500 gallons

and like i have said earlier...so much for max tank ratings of 275 gallons or 500 gallons...

wat kinda 500 gallons are they talking about? a 500gallon tank of nice sps and some fishes or a 500 gallon tank of adult size angels and tangs?

ratings, are useful as a guideline, but they dun really seem to matter alot to me now...

i will buy a skimmer to the maximum that i am willing to pay and to the maximum dimensions that i am able to place in the sump or beside the tank.

[Achilles Tang]

Max, hope you don't mind my queries as I am not a technical guru or even expert by any definition of the word coz I don't have a Mechanical/Electrical/R&D background but I try to learn from others who know more.

Max, do you have the lab test reports on this or is it super secret again?

I know skimmers all need to suck in air to produce foam... and I believe that needlewheels, venturis and beckett nozzles alike need a certain amount of air to be fed at an optimum level or the skimmer will not produce fine bubbles that influence skimmate quality. Hence the need for tuning. Correct me if I am wrong.

Is your statement insinuating that Deltecs are a lot better than the rest coz there is a LOT more air going in and THAT is matched by a LOT of water going in compared to the rest?

Your stated Deltec's 300% vs 20% for H&S, Schuran, Euroreefs, Aquamedics & other brands out there is impressive but air suction/water flow ratio is not the measure of how good a skimmer performs coz the amount of air and water going into a Beckett may mean its way 'better' than a Deltec coz the amount of water and air fed via a beckett into the skimmer is tremendous!

Curious to know the figures for Becketts or is it secret? Can you share?

Hope you can clarify your statement in detail.

Yeah, its common fact that height and size of reaction chamber is important for ALL skimmers. Even Deltecs... no one matches 20 needlewheel pumps into a 4 inch diameter chamber that is 20cm height.

Yeah... similarly, you don't put a 500l/h powerhead attached to a Deltec but use the appropriate pump right?

Yeah... similarly, you don't put a 5000l/h pump on a 5 metre tall skimmer body right?

Err... customization means models that come in different sizes to fit under stands or be free-standing and can be run by different-rated pumps to produce different foam quality? What's so bullshit (it seems to be your favourite word recently) about this?

Did you run this Lab test, or did someone run it already? Which lab? Can you produce the datasheet here? It's frustrating to hear of your lab test results but never get to see them. SHARE with us, man!

What in the world is a GFN XXL single Beckett skimmer? And yes, most of us know that if we want a bigger skimmer we need to go for more becketts and properly rated pumps!

What are you talking about?? rated for the tank? I'm lost here.

Yeah, this a is well known fact amongst the educated beckett users. But its good to point that out to newbies! Thanks!

Ah... you're contradicting yourself here man.... skimmers are rated by not just one part but by the sum of all its parts eg. diameter, height, pump, air intake, foam-making device technology.

Skimmers are recommended to be matched by the tank water volume which at the end of the day... is also a bit of a guesstimation coz every tank's bioload/water quality needs are different.

You can't pigeonhole a beckett skimmer by just the beckett part itself in terms of ratings coz can you say that a needlewheel can produce the same foam as a beckett nozzle? It's an unfair match because EVERYONE knows that beckett skimmers are energy inefficient but they sure can foam like no other foammaking device... and have a higher turnover of water than most other skimmers.

So if you can bring in a Deltec 6000L rated skimmer and we beckett users can make a 4-beckett skimmer (rated by you as 6000l efficiency) and we will test which skimmer outperforms the other! DEAL?

*shudder*, I am such a idiot.

Max,

One thing at a time... any clarifications to my questions on your statements?

I am sure many manufacturers and hobbyists alike want to know why Deltec skimmers are the best and the rest are bullshit.

I have been thinking about the proposed skimmer comparison tests and we should come up with suggested guidelines & set parameters for this controlled experiment. Once we all agree to the conditions and testing framework... let the Battle of the Skimmers begin! "Who wants to be the Deltec-Killer?" or "Who wants to beat the Beckett?" lol!

There are a few skimmers that have already been volunteered for this experiment... if there are no contenders... will it be just the Deltec vs Beckett?

[typrobin]

how bout

WHO WANTS TO BE A SKIMMALAIRE?

ARE U SKIMMED?

[Achilles Tang]

Robe,   great suggestion!

I take that challenge..................I'm infact interest to use my AP1000X against the double Beckett at Iwarna.( A Aerofoamer 872 series, rated upto 5000G or 20K Litres)-> setup by AT

I'll have to use 2 units of AP1006 rated for 8000L so = to 2x8000L = 16K Litres

This is going to be interesting.

Max

The beckett skimmers at Iwarna are 746 and not 872. Next time I'll bring a measuring tape to doublecheck how much they have grown!

And it has never run on dual becketts but just a single beckett each and both sharing just one Iwaki MX-70 (although there's the option to run dual each). Each is producing good enough foam even with a rubberband and a pc of plastic strip stuck in the nozzle. Was there this evening to take a look and discovered it. It may have been there for weeks already but wasn't removed! And the air intake wasn't even properly opened I heard! When it was opened... the skimmate was thick and yummy!

I believe Joe_P's beckett skimmers should not be pegged to Reef Concepts rating as the sizes are totally different.

A Reef Concepts 872 stands at 6ft tall and Joe_P's Reef Maniac 746 stands at less than 4ft.

You want to throw TWO Deltec AP1006 (the 2nd LARGEST commercial unit with SIX needlewheel pumps + 1 feed pump, costing S$9,008.39 EACH???) against one 746 beckett worth many times cheaper?

tell me you aren't serious!!

Pump power to pump power (wattage) consumption

Errr.... okie, if I guess correctly.. your AP1006 pumps should be using Eheim 1060? Each consume 50w x 6 = 300w.

Hmm...wait... the latest Iwaki MX-70 pump consumes only 150w (as pointed out by Robe) so are you allowing us to use TWO Iwaki MX-70s? It's going to explode.. so we have to build a skimmer body that can cope with that much foam... maybe we really should run 4 beckett nozzles (as you suggested in page 1) !

It's interesting to run 4 beckett nozzles vs 6 needlewheel pumps, both skimmers consuming 300w each... wait...forgot about your feedpump! Recommended 3500 Ltr./ h right? Using 1060 at 50w again? So its going to be 300w + 50w = 350w! Or to be fair, you have to remove one of the needlewheels.... to bring it down to 300w?

Skimmer sizing match - Beckett to use Reef Concept Sizing Match

Why do you insist on Reef Concepts? Because they are the Aerofoamer brand? There are many Commercial DIY beckett skimmer makers out there...

Anyway... I think it is going to be very vague competing based on manufacturers ratings... how do they judge the filtration/bioload of every tank? It's all guesstimation. I think all skimmers should just say: "Recommended for... blah blah tanks with blah blah blah livestocks, ###### feedings ###### a day, ###### water change a week...." Too many variables!

-questions on how to measure?

Use DI water + add nitrate solution of 200mg + 10 cubes of micron size food

Skimmers perfromance within 48 hrs or 24 hrs

As Robe says... no need to measure water quality... just go by visual assessment... the skimmer that stops producing skimmate first is the one that loses... or we can see the quality/quantity of the skimmate! Or because you slam visual assessments and insist only on laboratory spectrometer analysis of the water to judge?

(That would mean that the skimmers cannot have an even playing ground because you have to have seperate water containers for each!)

And why 24 to 48 hours? Just have a large toyogo tub of not so dirty seawater.... the good skimmers should produce foam in 15 mins... and skim clean the tub within an hour I guess....

As proposed by Maxima...

The

Pump Power to Pump Power (wattage) consumption skimmer Test

4 beckett nozzles (powered by 2 x 150w Iwaki MX-70 pumps: total 300w) vs 5 needlewheel + 1 feed pump (powered by Eheim 1060 50w pumps: total 300w)..... on behalf of all beckett skimmer users.... I accept the challenge!!!

This IS going to be interesting!

[moron_clown]

can i go watch?n bring my gf along too??den i can give her some ###### mud packs..

[Hon]

AT,

The newer iwaki MX-70 might not be drawing 150watt for operation. The 150watt might be indicating the Motor Output wattage. I have looks thru' the pdf file, its seem nothin has change since the 1st time I look at it in yr 2003. The spec of the pump remain the same.

Attach below is a snap of the iwaki Output wattage for reference.

[Hon]

Whereas the MD series pdf, they did indicate the Motor output and input wattage.

Attached pic for MD series.

[weisoon]

Can use my ATK pumps or not

Only 75W only leh for 6000l/hr or if not use the 10000l/hr at 140W

[shieldk]

Seems like all of you are not really concern about the cost versus performance.

The "value for money" factor is not being discussed at all .

I don't think I would like to pay 50% more for a so-call best performer which performs only 5% better than others.

There isn't a best skimmer that is best for each reefer, just like there is no best car, no best beer, no best medicine, no best "everything that you can imagine", otherwise it will be a monopolised situation.

Getting the right thing at the right time, right place and in the right hands will serve it's needs , that's where experience counts. You think a beginner with all the so call best equipment can "reef" better than AT or any other experienced reefer?

Now SRC is getting more interesting

[weisoon]

Getting the right thing at the right time, right place and in the right hands will serve it's needs , that's where experience counts. You think a beginner with all the so call best equipment can "reef" better than AT or any other experienced reefer?

So what's your view the other way round?

A best reefer with the most 'lousy' equipment. do you think he can achieve what he wanted? The world is bigger than you thought, bro.

[AlfaRomeo]

My opinion is that a beginner with the best equipment he can afford has a much higher chance of succeeding than a beginner with 'lousy' equipment.

'Best' equipment will give him a bigger buffer to make mistakes with...

[BarraCudaTM]

AT,

The newer iwaki MX-70 might not be drawing 150watt for operation. The 150watt might be indicating the Motor Output wattage. I have looks thru' the pdf file, its seem nothin has change since the 1st time I look at it in yr 2003. The spec of the pump remain the same.

Attach below is a snap of the iwaki Output wattage for reference.

its stated there.. 250watts for 50Hz AC

[shieldk]

So what's your view the other way round?

A best reefer with the most 'lousy' equipment. do you think he can achieve what he wanted? The world is bigger than you thought, bro.

Maybe you didn't read my post clearly, ie. paying a premium for a "so-call" best equipment that does not give you the premium performance, the technology has evolve to a stage where the performance gap is very close, in the context of protein skimming. The key here is "value for money"

So can you tell me which reefer has all the best equipment? So what equipment do you have? Even the experts in the industry have different thought and methodology. Do you think you're as good as them?

The world is not as big as you've imagine brother, if you've seen bigger things

[Maxima]

Whereas the MD series pdf, they did indicate the Motor output and input wattage.

Attached pic for MD series.

As usual our friend trying to pull a fast one.

150W MD70 -Man I want to buy one lah.................

Max

[roidan]

any pressure rated pumps that use less electricity than iwaki?

[Maxima]

Seems like all of you are not really concern about the cost versus performance.

The "value for money" factor is not being discussed at all .

I don't think I would like to pay 50% more for a so-call best performer which performs only 5% better than others.

There isn't a best skimmer that is best for each reefer, just like there is no best car, no best beer, no best medicine, no best "everything that you can imagine", otherwise it will be a monopolised situation.

Getting the right thing at the right time, right place and in the right hands will serve it's needs , that's where experience counts. You think a beginner with all the so call best equipment can "reef" better than AT or any other experienced reefer?

Now SRC is getting more interesting

Have you add in the price for 4 Iwaki MD70?

Should come closed to $2400++ just for the 2004 4 Iwaki MD70 alone.

You can get it cheaper at NO-Warranty water goods from Hng-Kong, -> actually thru China Agent.

Max

[Maxima]

Maybe you didn't read my post clearly, ie. paying a premium for a "so-call" best equipment that does not give you the premium performance, the technology has evolve to a stage where the performance gap is very close, in the context of protein skimming. The key here is "value for money"

So can you tell me which reefer has all the best equipment? So what equipment do you have? Even the experts in the industry have different thought and methodology. Do you think you're as good as them?

The world is not as big as you've imagine brother, if you've seen bigger things

Cool it man............. All S'pore reefers and brothers in this hobby.

AT is trying to claim to be the King who know everything, why you guys go argue over it.

Max

[bwilly]

u all argue like no man's land..

for ppl in accounting line, cost efficiency weigh against performance..

that's why I am still driving me old car depreciating at $3K++..

U'll not going to get the board to approve something that going

to give u minimum tangible benefits.. going to get grill n grill..

[robe]

I think AT made an honest mistake when he rated the MX 70 as 150w. Try to look at the pdf at this link and see the motor rating they wrote for the MX70.

http://www.iwakipumps.jp/products_e/pdf/a_pdf/mx_a2003.pdf

I was even elated at first that they have somehow managed to designed the MX70 to be the same as an MD55. As far as I know the MX70 when it was released almost 2 years ago was a 270 watter. I though that they have refined the model to be more efficient based on the latest data sheet they posted in their website.

If I who is very familiar with Iwaki pumps can be fooled and in fact I was the one who pointed it out to AT and I was so happy that I was planning to get the latest variant of the MX70................. oh well no choice I still have to pay SP more money...

[Maxima]

I think AT made an honest mistake when he rated the MX 70 as 150w. Try to look at the pdf at this link and see the motor rating they wrote for the MX70.

http://www.iwakipumps.jp/products_e/pdf/a_pdf/mx_a2003.pdf

I was even elated at first that they have somehow managed to designed the MX70 to be the same as an MD55. As far as I know the MX70 when it was released almost 2 years ago was a 270 watter. I though that they have refined the model to be more efficient based on the latest data sheet they posted in their website.

If I who is very familiar with Iwaki pumps can be fooled and in fact I was the one who pointed it out to AT and I was so happy that I was planning to get the latest variant of the MX70................. oh well no choice I still have to pay SP more money...

Hi Robe,

everyone make mistake. I make lot's of mistake as well.............................

I still cannot understand why our friend get so upset with products review comments???

So next time we should not comment about anything except good things.......................like the class 95FM advert: ONLY THE GOOD STUFFs Amybe AT should add that statement into the product review guidlines.

Max