How to Test a Skimmer

[Maxima]

If I may.....

a series of questions to think about...............

Between two skimmers with the same reaction chamber size and foam tube:

What do you get if you have a skimmer of lets say 10 litre reactor chamber and have an air water mixture of 50/50 as compared to a skimmer with a 30/70 air to water mixture? Will you get better skimming with the 50/50 or 30/70 ratio?

If you have a 50/50 mixture in your reactor chamber do you think you have a high throughput on your skimmer? waht is the volume of water going through your skimmer..

On the otherhand if you have a 30/70 mixture you have more throughput through the skimmer. based on the amount of water passing through the chamber.

Now which do you think is more efficient?

The only thing that i can conclude is that pumping more air into the skimmer does not address how good a skimmer will be. It proves nothing! So what if a skimmer can draw more air into the reaction chamber, it still does not mean that it is better than the skimmer that draws lesser air. It may be the other way around.....

The only thing it addressed is throughput.

Robe you are right with your thoughts, but I should say every Brand has their design make different.

BTW, who make a skimmer and measure the water to air ratio?

Deltec did that and esure water & air mix ratio is consistent throughout their line of skimmers.

Robe raise a good point in the chamber size of the skimmer. Can any Beckett skimmer brand ensure and test that their single Beckett in 8" chamber and 30" height has the same water & air mixture with another of their model in 6" chamber & 26" height?

Questions here is nobody does that.

Here we are trying to be objective. I'm stating design base on theory.

As for AT: I understand where you coming from and I do not need to answer you. You win in everything lah Only what you stated are true Why spend so much time replying if you think I'm telling bullshit. Reefers can judge for themselves

Max

[robe]

This may be the best time to put all questions to rest why don't LFS promoting or selling their line of skimmers conduct the test that I suggested the rest being all equal it will really be an eye opener to everybody here in SRC or even the world on how the various skimmers compare in performance. This would put Singapore in the roadmap as it seems we have the best of all products in the world like a meeting point halfway around the globe!

I call out on all the LFS selling their range of skimmers to answer the challenge! Show us how good your skimmers are!? We'll some may lose market share but hey it is good for the hobbyist out there as well as for the manufacturers to maybe improve their product to match the competition!

[roidan]

can also put in a wattage challenge section...

means using skimmers of same wattage consumption to see,

watt for watt, which skimmer is better

eg..single beckett using an iwaki pump vs needlewheel skimmer using a few needlewheel pumps

get the wattage of the iwaki pump = total wattage combined of the few needlewheel pumps...

see which one is better

[Joe_P]

can also put in a wattage challenge section...

means using skimmers of same wattage consumption to see,

watt for watt, which skimmer is better

eg..single beckett using an iwaki pump vs needlewheel skimmer using a few needlewheel pumps

get the wattage of the iwaki pump = total wattage combined of the few needlewheel pumps...

see which one is better

That would definitely be interesting...

I'm pretty keen as to how the performance of skimmers that employ multiple needlewheel pumps compared to becketts esp when they are the equivalent in terms of wattage....

[roidan]

my general take is that...

while becketts have a high thoroughput, they are less thorough in cleaning the water at each pass....whereas the needlewheels have a lower thoroughput in comparison but are more thorough in their processing at each pass...

meaning...lets say 10units of water flow thru the beckett skimmer, the same 10 units flow out very quickly with 8 units of water still dirty and 2 units cleaned..and the next batch of 10units drawn into the skimmer will arrive quickly to be cleaned again

the needlwheel skimmer has 10 units of water flow thru, has 5 units of water cleaned and 5 units of water dirty leaving the skimmer... but the next batch of 10 units of water will arrive slower than the beckett

all the numbers are just arbitary...just to help some to visualise better...

hehe..

oh..i am farting again

[Eric]

This may be the best time to put all questions to rest why don't LFS promoting or selling their line of skimmers conduct the test that I suggested the rest being all equal it will really be an eye opener to everybody here in SRC or even the world on how the various skimmers compare in performance. This would put Singapore in the roadmap as it seems we have the best of all products in the world like a meeting point halfway around the globe!

I call out on all the LFS selling their range of skimmers to answer the challenge! Show us how good your skimmers are!? We'll some may lose market share but hey it is good for the hobbyist out there as well as for the manufacturers to maybe improve their product to match the competition!

Hehe, this is interesting........can I compete with my DIY skimmer?

Eric

[Maxima]

This may be the best time to put all questions to rest why don't LFS promoting or selling their line of skimmers conduct the test that I suggested the rest being all equal it will really be an eye opener to everybody here in SRC or even the world on how the various skimmers compare in performance. This would put Singapore in the roadmap as it seems we have the best of all products in the world like a meeting point halfway around the globe!

I call out on all the LFS selling their range of skimmers to answer the challenge! Show us how good your skimmers are!? We'll some may lose market share but hey it is good for the hobbyist out there as well as for the manufacturers to maybe improve their product to match the competition!

Robe, great suggestion!

I take that challenge..................I'm infact interest to use my AP1000X against the double Beckett at Iwarna.( A Aerofoamer 872 series, rated upto 5000G or 20K Litres)-> setup by AT

I'll have to use 2 units of AP1006 rated for 8000L so = to 2x8000L = 16K Litres

Pump power to pump power (wattage) consumption

Skimmer sizing match - Beckett to use Reef Concept Sizing Match

-questions on how to measure?

Use DI water + add nitrate solution of 200mg + 10 cubes of micron size food

Skimmers perfromance within 48 hrs or 24 hrs

This is going to be interesting.

Max

[tineng]

Sorry if i raise a stupid question, I'm still quite new to this hobby...But is there a way to measure dissolve organics in seawater?

If there is, wouldn't measuring the level of dissolve organics in the tank before and after the skimmer runs for sometime be a more interesting measurement then just numeric calculation of air suction????

[chanbi]

while becketts have a high thoroughput, they are less thorough in cleaning the water at each pass....whereas the needlewheels have a lower thoroughput in comparison but are more thorough in their processing at each pass...

Roidan, if u are farting, then me too.. Actually that is exactly what i thought is happening. It just that i thought overall it will be beckett performancing ahead of the needlewheel if power consumption is never a concern.

[IanJ]

Interesting stuff.

Dont think you can really test on a power consumption basis, but only on a equal rating basis as suggested by the manufacturers.

Would be interesting to see aquamedic 5000 twin(long reaction chamber) vs short and wide Deltec(2 pumps) vs equal rating beckett.

Of course you can always use the most popular skimmer - Weipro- as a control

[robe]

Hi Tineng,

Analysis of DOC is a bit expensive as it has to be sent to a proper laboratory so a cheaper way is to do a last man standing contest as it will show how effective the skimmer is in squeezing out the last drop of DOC.

Hi Max,

I suggest that the skimmers should be run until only one is left skimming that way the most effective skimmer will standout.

Robe

[AlfaRomeo]

Very good idea for the skimmer contest. After this experiment, reefers here and globally will have a very good idea on what kinda skimmer is the best , what is hype and what actually works...

Why dunt we test this out on a more smaller scale (in terms of L of water), it would be more relevent for the vast majority of reefers. Maybe test the skimmers rated for about 1500L of water since that will be the max volume for 99.9% of tanks?

And just in time for my skimmer upgrade..

[roidan]

but then using tank ratings is not very good also (in my opinion, totally not scientific at all), even if we compare 2 skimmers that are supposedly rated for the same capacity tank, it can turn out that the manufacturers themselve do not rate the skimmers correctly...

and this is something we cannot blame the manufacturers...

when a skimmer is said to be rated for 1000L, 1000L of wat condition? 1000L under a lightly loaded reef? or 1000L under heavily loaded reef?

as such, it is just a arbitary number that the manufacturers throw at us to help us choose a skimmer....

at least deltecs take it one further step by saying...this skimmer model..

... rated for heavy stocking up to 1000L

yet the same skimmer rated for normal stocking is up to 2000L..

(numbers are not correct...u can check the deltec website)

even so, how heavy is heavy stocking? how normal is normal stocking?

thus, personally i feel that watt for watt comparison of different technologies can present another, if not more useful comparison of skimmers...

no ambiguity of tank rating levels...just simple wattage consumption

otherwise, tomorrow i come out with roidan rocket skimmers...

12 ft high chamber, 3 ft diameter chamber, running with a few 1000W pumps...yet i advertise as ..rated for 1000L tank...

get the picture?

[AlfaRomeo]

I see your point Roidan, good point indeed.

Lets see if the relevant ppl hawking various skimmers would be agreeable to this test.

this is going to be the best skimmer showdown ever.. practical and no mumbo-jumbo talk.. finally...

[roidan]

so when manufacturers rate their skimmers,

it's already hard for them to know under what loading conditions customers will use the skimmers, add the likely unfortunate factor that they may over-rate rather than under-rate their skimmers to convince us that their TEENY WEENY skimmers can do more than they actually can...

so u end up with skimmer usage ratings that can go grossly out of whack...

but wattage consumption is something they cannot mask...

wat pumps is used, wat wattage is consumed. as simple as that

[robe]

H Roidan,

That's why a last man standing skimmer contest would even out any claims to what size of tank it is for. The only thing that would make it win is squeezing that last drop of DOC out of the tank!

Robe

[roidan]

i also agree and get what you mean bro robe...

your side of the test will determine which skimmer is better for their socalled advertised equivalent rating levels...

we will be able to find out from your test, which skimmer is indeed better and which skimmer is grossly over-rated by the manufacturers at equivalent tank rating levels

but for my preference of wattage comparison testing,

even their socalled called rating levels is a factor that has been eliminated from the experiment automatically...

just which technology works best at the same watts, watever non-scientific marketing numbers of tank rating levels get thrown out..

[Eric]

H Roidan,

That's why a last man standing skimmer contest would even out any claims to what size of tank it is for. The only thing that would make it win is squeezing that last drop of DOC out of the tank!

Robe

I believe if you set the skimmer to run wet, it should skim more DOC than dry.

Odds for the skimmer:-

Deltec vs Beckett - 2.0 v 1.8

Deltec vs Aquamedic - 1.6 v 2.4

Deltec vs Aqua C - 1.4 v 2.6

Deltec vs H&S - 1.8 v 2.1

Deltec vs Weipro - 1.1 v 3.2

Eric

[IanJ]

Its the responsibility of the manufacturer to correctly rate their products. We buy skimmers on that basis.

Many factors effect how good a skimmer works, size of reaction chamber, flow, salinity, collection cup length, temp, etc etc, the power consumption is not a factor since it is a constant for each design.

Becketts use more powerful pumps, so what, its the above combination that you should think about, dont get hung up on power consumption.

[roidan]

ianj:

i get your point also..

that's why we must be careful not to intentionally weaken the beckett capabilities by using a small size pump...

eg...if use a 50W pump to drive a beckett and 50W pump to drive a needlewheel, i think the beckett is at a disadvantage and this is something we should avoid..

we should let beckett have the best conditions for operation..

if you use a very good pressure rated pump to drive a beckett to let it work at near potential, then get use a needlewheel skimmer of a few pumps to match the wattage...

each working at their potential levels...we dun intentionally cripple one to aid the other...

but robe's perspective is also very correct, the last man standing is also a good method...

i just thought of including this wattage test since there will be a congregation of skimmers to play with

[roidan]

Its the responsibility of the manufacturer to correctly rate their products. We buy skimmers on that basis.

bro ianj, no offense ,

but then i think you will be placing too much faith on the manufacturer...

eg. it is known that the prowess of japanese cars tend to be overrated in comparison to their european counterparts...

very rough example..a honda supercar is rated up to 400km/hr vs a mecedes mclaren supercar that is rated up to 400km/hr as well...

but u dunno under what testing conditions both cars achieved their ratings of 400km/hr....maybe honda supercar can only reach that rating with wind blowing behind the car whereas the mclaren can reach that rating no matter wat conditions? as such....ratings from individual manufacturers are to be taken as guideline but not rule

but both cars did manage to reach 400km/hr and both are not wrong in their ratings

each manufacturer will rate their cars/skimmers in different conditions, in their own labs..and it's the different conditions that will affect the manufacturer's ratings in comparison to another

rough example, skimmer A uses a reef tank 1000L to rate and it did skim very well under various testings and they label their skimmer as rated up to 1000L

skimmer B uses another reef tank 1000L to rate and it also did skim very well under various testings and they label their skimmer as rated up to 1000L.

but question is...are the both 1000L tanks totally identical? that's why u cannot sue skimmer A or B if they fail to skim well in your 1000L tank....because they also have proof that their skimmers have indeed skimmed very very well in their 1000L tank

if, all manufacturers send their products to a central standards board for testing, then all ambiguity about ratings will be elminated, using the same 1000L tank conditions.

but reality is that this is seldom or cannot be done, and thus, the manufacturers rating is a guideline, but not a rule

no matter how reputable a car manufacturer or skimmer manufactuer is, it would be blind faith if we trust their ratings to a tee

[IanJ]

Roidan

It would make sense to use the manufacturers recommended pump for any Beckett skimmer in the test, the same would also go for the feed pumps for others. Such a test is then simply evaluating how each skimmer performs under the same test conditions.

Eack skimmer type should be the optimum recommended size for the volume under test.

From the test results the consumer can make a decision. The total purchase costs and running cost can the be considered in conjunction with the test results and individuals can choose which one meets their expectations, in terms of result, price, running cost and sometimes of more importance, where and how such a skimmer can fit into the system.

[roidan]

Roidan

It would make sense to use the manufacturers recommended pump for any Beckett skimmer in the test, the same would also go for the feed pumps for others. Such a test is then simply evaluating how each skimmer performs under the same test conditions.

Eack skimmer type should be the optimum recommended size for the volume under test.

From the test results the consumer can make a decision. The total purchase costs and running cost can the be considered in conjunction with the test results and individuals can choose which one meets their expectations, in terms of result, price, running cost and sometimes of more importance, where and how such a skimmer can fit into the system.

ok..noted

[roidan]

anyway,

i am someone who uses both methodologies of skimming in my system.

my aquaC of high thoroughput and my H&S of low thoroughput

thus, i dun really tend to lean on any side of the methods, coz both work well for me, and i respect both schools of methods

[Achilles Tang]

As for AT: I understand where you coming from and I do not need to answer you. You win in everything lah Only what you stated are true Why spend so much time replying if you think I'm telling bullshit. Reefers can judge for themselves

Max

Maxima,

After all that strong statements and facts stated to put every product down except yours down, you won't even backup what you wrote??

I'm very disappointed as I have always looked up to you as the man with all the answers to everything but just not willing to share.

Can I throw back the same statement you made back to you? Eg. You win in everything lah Only what you stated are true Why spend so much time telling bullshit if you can't back it up. Reefers can judge for themselves

Hope you won't just walk away but indulge us in learning more from you.

AT