How to Test a Skimmer

[Maxima]

If you look at the overall performance of a lot different brand name skimmer, we tend to use the eyes

So what's the factual truth?

It's the Air & Water mixture. A good skimmer will be Air Suction Power with Water Ratio. If anyone wanted to test any skimmer, use a Air Suction Meter & Water Flow Meter. Deltec end up 300% to 20% against all Venturi and Needle Wheel major Brand name out there. An example will be the Deltec hang_on type skimmers vs brand name of RXX SXX of similar capacity.

RXX SXX brand produce 30L Air vs Deltec 312L ofthe same skimmer size

The only equipment that can match Deltec is the Beckett. But wait..............there's a catch.

U wil notice that Beckett Skimmer tend to size not base on number of Beckett, but height & size of reactio chamber. So is this tested?

So what do I mean?

Any Beckett skimmer of same physical size with different pump will perform with different result.

Any Any Beckett skimmer running the same pump with different physical size will perform with different result.

If you go to any Beckett Skimmer website, you will realised that a single Beckett can be make into different size reaction chamber & cylinder. This is bullshit. Believe me, if you run a Lab test, you will realised Beckett work best under a specific physical. SO if you are looking at a bigger beckett, go for a dual or triple beckett. Don't ever buy a GFN XXL single Beckett, you will/are infact losing alot of efficiency. A 3000L rate single beckett wil not perform any better than 2 single beckett rated for 1000L, infact the single beckett will perform worse off

And if you use Beckett, do not save on pumps - it's the key

So if you compare a 6000L rated skimmers, plse compare to 4 Beckett. hint- 1500L per beckett. So the power effiiency of 4 beckett, run by 4 MD55

So if any so call Guru or Ma_Chee_Ku tell you he's an expert and base on what he see , the skimmer is good Think about it.

Max

[IanJ]

Hi Max

An early start to a subject which will bring lots of opinions.

So here's mine.

Deltec are great skimmers, they are the skimmer of choice in the UK, its just that they do not out perform the Aquamedic's. Take the AP850 vs the 5000baby, not much to choose between them, some people claim that the 5000baby has a optimum bubble size leading to better skimming, who really knows?

Same goes between the AP600 and Multi 1000.

Ive seen a few becketts and they do seem to pump in a lot of air, the question is, is the extreme turbulence really the way to attract all proteins to the surface of the bubble?

Ian

[Maxima]

Hi Max

An early start to a subject which will bring lots of opinions.

So here's mine.

Deltec are great skimmers, they are the skimmer of choice in the UK, its just that they do not out perform the Aquamedic's. Take the AP850 vs the 5000baby, not much to choose between them, some people claim that the 5000baby has a optimum bubble size leading to better skimming, who really knows?

Same goes between the AP600 and Multi 1000.

Ive seen a few becketts and they do seem to pump in a lot of air, the question is, is the extreme turbulence really the way to attract all proteins to the surface of the bubble?

Ian

The test result

Deltec AP850 vs AB 5000 baby

Deltec AP850 has as much as 50% more air suction in the reaction chamber anytime. This is also true that AP850 has finer bubbles as well.

BTW, test result shows Ab is not even in the same league as Deltec. The only brand that come close with 20% of Deltec is H&S external units, cope with right feed pump.

Plse note these are Lab test, not base on personal opinion or our eyes looking at beloved skimmer . Btw, unless you think air is not needed to skim effectively, than the arguement will be different. There's alot of data that is not Marine base out there, from water recycling plant on the imprtance of Air Suction on Skimmming. You need to take a read.

Max

[RockyBoy]

312L of air in Deltec? That's awfully lot of air to squeeze into the skimmer at a given time.....

[IanJ]

Max

True, i have no figures or measurements and my purchase was on a visual basis only. However i did see them running side by side in a UK shop on the same system and listened to the (non biased, from people i trust) experience of the shop.

There was not so much visual difference, the Aquamedic reaction chamber is bigger.

The Aquamedic 5000baby produced a drier foam and was more hands off in operation as far as i heard from other users.

50% more air, Hmmmm

There are many Deltec vs Aquamedic arguments in the UK, at the end of the day, some people swear that one is better than the other, others can not see any differences in results.

Just thought prices of both Deltec and Aquamedic were rather high here in Singapore which has limited the appeal

[Maxima]

Max

True, i have no figures or measurements and my purchase was on a visual basis only. However i did see them running side by side in a UK shop on the same system and listened to the (non biased, from people i trust) experience of the shop.

There was not so much visual difference, the Aquamedic reaction chamber is bigger.

The Aquamedic 5000baby produced a drier foam and was more hands off in operation as far as i heard from other users.

50% more air, Hmmmm

There are many Deltec vs Aquamedic arguments in the UK, at the end of the day, some people swear that one is better than the other, others can not see any differences in results.

Just thought prices of both Deltec and Aquamedic were rather high here in Singapore which has limited the appeal

Hi Ian,

I agree with you. The tuning protion is also important. Jus like Formula 1 the Ferrari is quoted as having the better engine, but they don't win in every race? I think it is upto the user............I'm learning as well..........a lot of information is out of this world when I get communication with the expert who do teh design & testing..............more than preception I think.

My roots in R&D, the basis in every product will should be relative sound in theory, design and physical lab test. Actual result will varies depending on a lot of variables. But a lot of products out there is not Lab test before release - cost is a fact running these tests.

BTW, my aunt drives a BMW 540 and she stated it's fast, but the fact here is she never accelerated in full thottle, race nor drive above 110km. Is this a joke I think if you good in tuning your equipment, that's is the best performance equipment under your hand

How's your Bryosis problem? Has Rowaphos worked as per your old thread...............

Maybe we can talk offline .............PMs

Max

[ervine]

Interesting but what's the definition of this air suction power thing how is it measured and why is it in %....

[robe]

Hi Max,

Since you put it so succinctly how Delteq outperforms the rest of the skimmers in the market why not conduct a real test based on actual performance.

On behalf of the Beckett skimmers fans in Singapore and all the needle wheel skimmers fans, there should be a challenge between skimmers see who can outlast the rest....

here's how it could be done.....

1. Find equivalent rated skimmers (tank volume) from each type or brand (Beckett single injector, direct injector type (AquaC Ev240) , Deltec (needle wheel), H&S (needle wheel) -

The logistics

"Max would be able to provide both the AquaC and Deltec, for the beckett skimmers (need some volunteer -hmmm Danano you have not used your new skimmer yet right?) For other branded needle wheel ( Any H&S or Euroreef owners who is willing to volunteer their skimmer for the test?)"

2. Install the skimmers and configure it to skim from the same tank and at the same time

3. Load the tank onetime with whatever bioload

4. Start skimming - (note all skimmer collection cups should be washed with dishwashing liquid and rinse very well to remove any residue of organic material layer on its surface)

5. Run continuously 24 x 7 (skimmer cup will be emptied and cleaned by rinsing of water only at the same time, meaning they will be shutoff the same time, cleaned and restarted)

The Winning Skimmer!!!

How the skimmers will be judge:

1. The skimmers will be judge on the basis of how much skimmate they can produce over the test period - thick dark liquid and sludge

2. The best skimmers will be the one that is still skimming after the others have stopped skimming - (this means the skimmer can still suck out those waste even though the others cannot)

3. Best throughput - the skimmer that can process the largest water volume per unit of time

So Max care to conduct the trial on behalf of the Sgreefclub and prove what you have implied ?

Volunteers! Please help by lending your skimmers for this trial!

Hep Hep Hurray!!!!!

[robe]

I forgot something..... for Beckett skimmers the biggest pump to be used is an Iwaki MD55

[Achilles Tang]

If you look at the overall performance of a lot different brand name skimmer, we tend to use the eyes   So what's the factual truth?

It's the Air & Water mixture.

...

So if any so call Guru or Ma_Chee_Ku tell you he's an expert and base on what he  see , the skimmer is good   Think about it.

Max

Wow! Max, you have outdone yourself this time!

Strong words should be backed with 'liao'.... I agree that this challenge must take place... for hobbyists not only in Singapore but WORLDWIDE!!! For the advancement of the hobby!!

Robe, that is the best statement I have ever read from you in a very long time!! You are the best Ma_Chee_Ku (whatever that means! ) around... you made me laugh so hard I almost split my sides!

If my beckett skimmer is crap, I'll upgrade my skimmer to a Deltec but I'm just afraid my wife will divorce me because of the cost! She may even make me eat my beckett skimmate

Max, if I don't use my eyes to see the skimmate a skimmer produces, what senses should I use? My nose... it stinks to high heaven... taste... NNoooooooOOOOooooo!!!! Touch? Yucky... like sh*t.

I have never been this excited about equipment before in a long long time!!

Deltec vs the REST OF THE WORLD Challenge!!

Robe has thrown the gauntlet and I'm willing to volunteer my beckett skimmer for the test!!!

[roidan]

aiyo....

like world war ah..

Americans (becketts) vs Germans (needlewheels)

let me offer my humble american pie.....mudpie (aquaC)

[roidan]

but i also have german skimmate (H&S)

how? i am sitting on the fence between the 2 giant powers ....seeing ballistic missles shooting above me......ahhhhhh

*run away to hide*

[ervine]

Skimmer Wars - Episode One: The Phantom Skimmate

[ah^siao]

so is the challenge taking place? who's sponsering the skimmers??? really interested to know the results?

[Achilles Tang]

Max, hope you don't mind my queries as I am not a technical guru or even expert by any definition of the word coz I don't have a Mechanical/Electrical/R&D background but I try to learn from others who know more.

It's the Air & Water mixture. A good skimmer will be Air Suction Power with Water Ratio. If anyone wanted to test any skimmer, use a Air Suction Meter & Water Flow Meter. Deltec end up 300% to 20% against all Venturi and Needle Wheel major Brand name out there. An example will be the Deltec hang_on type skimmers vs brand name of RXX SXX of similar capacity.

RXX SXX brand produce 30L Air vs Deltec 312L ofthe same skimmer size

The only equipment that can match Deltec is the Beckett. But wait..............there's a catch.

Max, do you have the lab test reports on this or is it super secret again?

I know skimmers all need to suck in air to produce foam... and I believe that needlewheels, venturis and beckett nozzles alike need a certain amount of air to be fed at an optimum level or the skimmer will not produce fine bubbles that influence skimmate quality. Hence the need for tuning. Correct me if I am wrong.

Is your statement insinuating that Deltecs are a lot better than the rest coz there is a LOT more air going in and THAT is matched by a LOT of water going in compared to the rest?

Your stated Deltec's 300% vs 20% for H&S, Schuran, Euroreefs, Aquamedics & other brands out there is impressive but air suction/water flow ratio is not the measure of how good a skimmer performs coz the amount of air and water going into a Beckett may mean its way 'better' than a Deltec coz the amount of water and air fed via a beckett into the skimmer is tremendous!

Curious to know the figures for Becketts or is it secret? Can you share?

Hope you can clarify your statement in detail.

U wil notice that Beckett Skimmer tend to size not base on number of Beckett, but height & size of reactio chamber. So is this tested?

So what do I mean?

Yeah, its common fact that height and size of reaction chamber is important for ALL skimmers. Even Deltecs... no one matches 20 needlewheel pumps into a 4 inch diameter chamber that is 20cm height.

Any Beckett skimmer of same physical size with different pump will perform with different result.

Yeah... similarly, you don't put a 500l/h powerhead attached to a Deltec but use the appropriate pump right?

Any Any Beckett skimmer running the same pump with different  physical size will perform with different result.

Yeah... similarly, you don't put a 5000l/h pump on a 5 metre tall skimmer body right?

If you go to any Beckett Skimmer website, you will realised that a single Beckett can be make into different size reaction chamber & cylinder. This is bullshit.

Err... customization means models that come in different sizes to fit under stands or be free-standing and can be run by different-rated pumps to produce different foam quality? What's so bullshit (it seems to be your favourite word recently) about this?

Believe me, if you run a Lab test, you will realised Beckett work best under a specific physical.

Did you run this Lab test, or did someone run it already? Which lab? Can you produce the datasheet here? It's frustrating to hear of your lab test results but never get to see them. SHARE with us, man!

SO if you are looking at a bigger beckett, go for a dual or triple beckett. Don't ever buy a GFN XXL single Beckett, you will/are infact  losing alot of efficiency.

What in the world is a GFN XXL single Beckett skimmer? And yes, most of us know that if we want a bigger skimmer we need to go for more becketts and properly rated pumps!

A 3000L rate single beckett wil not perform any better than 2 single beckett rated for 1000L, infact the single beckett will perform worse off

What are you talking about?? rated for the tank? I'm lost here.

And if you use Beckett, do not save on pumps - it's the key

Yeah, this a is well known fact amongst the educated beckett users. But its good to point that out to newbies! Thanks!

So if you compare a 6000L rated skimmers, plse compare to 4 Beckett. hint- 1500L per beckett. So the power effiiency of 4 beckett, run by 4 MD55

Ah... you're contradicting yourself here man.... skimmers are rated by not just one part but by the sum of all its parts eg. diameter, height, pump, air intake, foam-making device technology.

Skimmers are recommended to be matched by the tank water volume which at the end of the day... is also a bit of a guesstimation coz every tank's bioload/water quality needs are different.

You can't pigeonhole a beckett skimmer by just the beckett part itself in terms of ratings coz can you say that a needlewheel can produce the same foam as a beckett nozzle? It's an unfair match because EVERYONE knows that beckett skimmers are energy inefficient but they sure can foam like no other foammaking device... and have a higher turnover of water than most other skimmers.

So if you can bring in a Deltec 6000L rated skimmer and we beckett users can make a 4-beckett skimmer (rated by you as 6000l efficiency) and we will test which skimmer outperforms the other! DEAL?

So if any so call Guru or Ma_Chee_Ku tell you he's an expert and base on what he  see , the skimmer is good   Think about it.

Max

*shudder*, I am such a idiot.

[robe]

If I may.....

a series of questions to think about...............

Between two skimmers with the same reaction chamber size and foam tube:

What do you get if you have a skimmer of lets say 10 litre reactor chamber and have an air water mixture of 50/50 as compared to a skimmer with a 30/70 air to water mixture? Will you get better skimming with the 50/50 or 30/70 ratio?

If you have a 50/50 mixture in your reactor chamber do you think you have a high throughput on your skimmer? waht is the volume of water going through your skimmer..

On the otherhand if you have a 30/70 mixture you have more throughput through the skimmer. based on the amount of water passing through the chamber.

Now which do you think is more efficient?

The only thing that i can conclude is that pumping more air into the skimmer does not address how good a skimmer will be. It proves nothing! So what if a skimmer can draw more air into the reaction chamber, it still does not mean that it is better than the skimmer that draws lesser air. It may be the other way around.....

The only thing it addressed is throughput.

[Achilles Tang]

I love intellectual debates... gets what little brain cells of mine going...

Let's keep it intellectual ok?

[ervine]

If I may.....

a series of questions to think about...............

Between two skimmers with the same reaction chamber size and foam tube:

What do you get if you have a skimmer of lets say 10 litre reactor chamber and have an air water mixture of 50/50 as compared to a skimmer with a 30/70 air to water mixture? Will you get better skimming with the 50/50 or 30/70 ratio?

If you have a 50/50 mixture in your reactor chamber do you think you have a high throughput on your skimmer? waht is the volume of water going through your skimmer..

On the otherhand if you have a 30/70 mixture you have more throughput through the skimmer. based on the amount of water passing through the chamber.

Now which do you think is more efficient?

The only thing that i can conclude is that pumping more air into the skimmer does not address how good a skimmer will be. It proves nothing! So what if a skimmer can draw more air into the reaction chamber, it still does not mean that it is better than the skimmer that draws lesser air. It may be the other way around.....

The only thing it addressed is throughput.

Sounds like a mathematical riddle to me!!

[roidan]

i feel that air flow and water flowrates of skimmers can definitely be determined with good flow meters in a lab...

but like robe says, does the absolute amount means everything?

when a skimmer pulls the most water and air, does it automatically becomes the best skimmer?

these are quantifiable properties....how about the qualitative properties?

properties that cannot be represented in numbers easily?

how well the mixing occurs....i dun think we cannot put a number to it easily...

i am sure alot of reefers here have come across this equation in a website...

is this equation useful?

[roidan]

for the above equation

[robe]

Hi Erv,

That was a test of logic....or was it? It's probably my work I'm still at the office working.... I need to get my mind off work for a little while......

[robe]

Yikesss!!! Roidan you'll kill us with mental overload from that equation ..

[roidan]

haha..oooops...

i dun really understand the whole equation. just post to help further confuse a confusing topic

[Achilles Tang]

It's so simple:

=

The only variable is the SIZE OF MY WALLET vs ENERGY EFFICIENCY vs SPACE FOR THE SKIMMER in my decision to choose the right mechanism for me to produce the above equation in the quickest possible time!

BTW, I suck at Maths! So I can only rely on visual observation.

[roidan]

haha..good one boss