Disciplining Kids?

[onghm]

Yang (3) Bu (2) Jiao (4), Fu (4) Zhi (1) Guo (4)

Jiao (4) Bu (4) Yan (2), Shi (1) Zhi (1) Duo (4)

The three character classic above already mention that teacher has to be strict.

And parents have to work with and support the teacher.

So I support proper punishment in school.

Caning etc..

But not tight slap to the face or butt stroke to the head lah

[bwilly]

spanking on the buttocks for the guy n on the hands for gal are oki..

but in my time, it used to be a honor to be spanked..

n u can start segment the school compound n collecting money from the junior kids..

[riot]

See all the SRC teachers go on warpath

But really, disciplining must go along with retainng the kids respect. You can whack the joker, but make sure the fella leaves without any image of a lynch mob.

The kids are different today becoz the world is different today. The education system is changing- rote learning will fail you, applying skills & knowledge from inter-disciplinary fields are encouraged. No wonder the kids question - they have been trained too!

Sometimes I feel it is a good thing- I want feedback from the ground on how I can make my teaching better, how I can work to make lessons more exciting. However, lines must be drawn when they go into personal attacks. I think the best option is to really treat them like an adult- I explain the rationale, and lay out expectations. You flunk out, you know the consequences. Take it like a man.

my 2cents

[DeepBlue]

haha...

make sure the fella leaves without any image of a lynch mob.

referring to bwilly??

Actually what concerns me is the perceptions of pupils now. With the RI camera case, now the female student who made the report....the pupils might feel that they have the power to bring a teacher, or even a Principal down.

Some may have the misconception or distorted idea to seek for ways to do that just to show how 'powerful' they are...

This is quite sad, eventually, teachers and principals may choose not to be zealous in their jobs anymore...

why bother to discipline the child when they will get into trouble with the parents....let the parents handle them....afterall...they dun live with these kids and they dun see them the whole day....

Is this the kind of education our parents are pushing the Singapore education towards...???

[bwilly]

I think the best option is to really treat them like an adult- I explain the rationale, and lay out expectations. You flunk out, you know the consequences. Take it like a man.

my 2cents

its not like from the old school of thoughts any more..

they dun talk abt honor n brotherhood no more.

u can never easily get stuffs into their brains.. if there is any.

[bwilly]

haha...

referring to bwilly??

Actually what concerns me is the perceptions of pupils now. With the RI camera case, now the female student who made the report....the pupils might feel that they have the power to bring a teacher, or even a Principal down.

Some may have the misconception or distorted idea to seek for ways to do that just to show how 'powerful' they are...

This is quite sad, eventually, teachers and principals may choose not to be zealous in their jobs anymore...

why bother to discipline the child when they will get into trouble with the parents....let the parents handle them....afterall...they dun live with these kids and they dun see them the whole day....

Is this the kind of education our parents are pushing the Singapore education towards...???

an eye for an eye..

its not easy to handle problem kids, esp gals..

to win, must concentrate on their leader..

the leader will put the others in check...

remind me of good old days.. when the oldies were round up once..

the whole school was so quiet for weeks.. (no fight, dispute..)

just weeks.. after that back to businesses.. haha..!

get the more problem kid, suspended or kick out of school..

that's the only way, I believe for serious case. unless the kid

got some feeling of remorse.

[riot]

Actually what concerns me is the perceptions of pupils now. With the RI camera case, now the female student who made the report....the pupils might feel that they have the power to bring a teacher, or even a Principal down.

Some may have the misconception or distorted idea to seek for ways to do that just to show how 'powerful' they are...

Its sad but thats how life is. The whole social perception of teachers has changed. In the past, teachers were respected and thought of as highly educated- a profession. Now with massive social and economic development, regular adults/ parents have far greater earning ability and are perceived as more dynamic in the private sector. They feel that teachers are basically losers who cant get jobs elsewhere, ultra conservative CIVIL SERVANTS. I think this rubs off on the kids, and hence the sense of superiority and power. I have had kids that say why respect a teacher- he cant even afford a car! My dad drives a lexus. He is an "entrepreneur", while teachers are just mindless slave dogs.

But serously, since we are in this debate, we really cant just talk about disciplining the kids as the end itself. The whole idea is how to circumvent the problem and get a 99.99% compiancy rate. I think Finland has set a great example, with excellent environment and great respect for teachers. But you see, it works for them coz they have gotten totally around the learn by drilling/ exams system. The teachers are given free play to think over how they teach, what they want to teach. This instils a sense of pride and ownership, and more creative lessons. There will be no kid who will cause problems if he ENJOYS the lesson, and looks forward to classes. The thing now is that the system is so structured, time so short, teachers go in wham bam give you info you go digest. Gee- if I am a kid, I will think that I can do a better job! Lok from the point of the child (not saying that they are angels, mind you but you get a harassed fella rushing to class, notes spilling from the file, scribbling madly on the white board while droning on to complete the syllabus, to prepare for the exams that happens twice a month. Ironically, in the attempt to push the next generation to greater productivity & success, we have killed ourselves in the process. The tighter the squeeze, the greater difficulties we face teaching the next generation.

I would love to better myself to teach the kids more stuff, but heck where got time?

[bum]

riot,

the bottom line is: ACADEMICS.

everyone seems to think that the ultimate goal in school

is to score As.

personally i feel that there is so much the education system as well

as teachers in general can offer, but there is simply too much

focus on tests and results.

NAPFA, TAF, NATONAL AVERAGE, CLUSTER RANKING,

SCHOOLS RANKING, etc etc.

seems it always comes back to the same.

[Chris]

Riot,

The ministry is closely studying the Finnish and Swedish systems. We have moved a little closer to their system with reduced content, CIP, PW etc. It is the parents' mentality that is hindering this move. Parents in the scandinavian countries take their role in education very seriously. Besides work, they are also very involved in helping the school run programmes and even in disciplining the students. The parents, school and ministry work from the same premise.

This is why such thing (Parents sueing School) will not happen as both have the same responsibility.

The system is in place but are our parents ready to take part.

It's like teaching our children. Father and mother must be consistent. If not, one who always be slammed as the 'baddie'.

[Zero Oxygen]

I going to send them to martial art school either in japan or china and let them learn the discipline of living together with others and the strict discipline of working out and earning their needs from there.

Never believe in army in singapore. Only make a person discipline in a 'ham chee' manner......... you all so know......

sigh

[nutx]

This inicident only REFLECT how brain-less and NO-direction our educational system is heading....

blindly follow some foreign system, without examine into context.

The principal could have just chosen the easy way out, report the girl to police, for underage smoking, then see how the parent react again!

21 offences record and still going strong, yet this time round she 'win' big time.....would be interesting to check her background.

I really dunno how principals and teachers are going to continue with the education.

[Chris]

Dear nutx,

Education is not about winning or supressing the defiants witha smart system. Of course we can get the authority to come in. Teaching can just deliver content and ignore behaviour. The easy way out is there but always not the best option.

If teacher were to take such stand, teaching and learning becomes meaningless as the heart is devoid from it.

All teachers want to help pupils to change for the better. All teachers want to think they can do it. No teacher wants to give up on any pupil.

Getting the girl out of the schools or the system is not a win-win result. If that happens, we are just passing the problem from the school to the home or police, that's all.

[flubberina13]

Someone BIG somewhere THERE should have a change in his thinking and to encourage a paradigm shift from academics to holistic...

Been to schools in other countries, notably the ones in rural States, Australia and South Africa. Boy...the children do enjoy their lessons and take ownership of their learning... They had even shared about what they learn in school spontaneously without any prompting...

Can't people see that education is first intrinsic instead of 'showy stances'?

It all boils down to the paper chase and the society...but on the other hand, it is the people who make up this society rather than the society makes us...HUMAN CAPITAL is what our small but beloved country have opportunities to excel in but alas...to each his own...to each his mantle...sigh...

How many out there can challenge the norm and yet willing to face the consequences?

Take it in a business-like approach, it is about taking calculated risks then to just throw in all the eggs into one basket....can someone do this? Would anyone do this? Will anyone do it?

[flubberina13]

Taking an authoriative approach outwins the authoritarian style...most teachers know it and are willing to practise it but really...can parents allow us to do it, respecting and knowing that we mean well for their children, that's why we bother to care and get involved?

[riot]

The ministry is closely studying the Finnish and Swedish systems. We have moved a little closer to their system with reduced content, CIP, PW etc. It is the parents' mentality that is hindering this move. Parents in the scandinavian countries take their role in education very seriously. Besides work, they are also very involved in helping the school run programmes and even in disciplining the students. The parents, school and ministry work from the same premise.

This is why such thing (Parents sueing School) will not happen as both have the same responsibility.

Heh heh sad to burst your bubble Chris but i have never seen any reduced content in the education system

I tell my kids you can make it in Singapore, you can make it anywhere. The education squeeze is amazing- hours are longer, more remedials, more notes, more exams. Its tough- I really sympathise with the kids.

I think with the new Ag Min, there is a fresh breeze going around- SATs got scrapped, etc. But at teh ground level, there is just so much focus on ranking (they say thats gonna change with banding... I dont know). that I feel I dont have time to "hang out" with the kids, get to know what drives them, harnessing that dynamite power into something useful. They are really a lost generation- too much money, heck of a lot of worries, and no one to guide them. Adulthood before they are ready.

But yeah, I agree that parents gotta get into the picture- hence the whole school/ compass approach. But how to do it , without draining out th teacher and taking time from busy worker/ parents? Hey, I am just a drone, I'll leave that thinking to the dudes in the superscale....

[nutx]

But at teh ground level, there is just so much focus on ranking (they say thats gonna change with banding... I dont know).

sign....I think this is going to made it worst, it's like

band 1 = Class 1

band 2 = Class 2

band 3 = Class 3...etc...

Last time, the position ranking altho it is bad, people can't really group them into different class..with the banding, the class status will comeout.

[Chris]

There is a concerted effort to move the way. The new ranking will ease competition. Can't tell much about the new ranking yet but as far as I know, schools will be banded according to many aspects and not just results. It will not be like the way nutx says. Anyway, don't we know that RI is better than XYZ school, with or without the ranking?

the focus is slowing shifting towards holistic education. Remember that education is a slow process. Give it another 50 years

[nutx]

There is a concerted effort to move the way. The new ranking will ease competition. Can't tell much about the new ranking yet but as far as I know, schools will be banded according to many aspects and not just results. It will not be like the way nutx says. Anyway, don't we know that RI is better than XYZ school, with or without the ranking?

the focus is slowing shifting towards holistic education. Remember that education is a slow process. Give it another 50 years

not trying to argue on my speculation....

yes, many aspects will be included in the banding, but band 1 is still be superior than band 2, right?

In the past, when only SAP school student take CL1, and there are also gifted programme. But everything just goes as per normal and there are no such 'ranking' issue.

But when it turn into a nationwide system of EM1, EM2, and EM3, in the primary school, all sort of classification came out.

all this changes really dunno is for the good of the student or for the school.

[Chris]

As the society develops, ranking/classification is inevitable. People are more knowledgeable and has the know how to know more. Not to forget, they have ability to choose (even globally) trying to remian status quo will result in losing our top people to others, and losing competitive edge.

Ranking and banding (the system) is not bad. It is a natural progression of growth. It is our perception that has put it into bad light. Why do we always think EM3 is worse off than EM1? Why can't we see EM1 as a course preparing certain type of future workers and EM3 grooming another type? Why can't we think of Band 1 schools as grooming doctors and lawyers and respect Band 3 schools as much for grooming technicians and skilled workers? Both will serve the society as importantly. In Germany, the society put great effort in developing technical stream students. They are also respected for taking up jobs that are critical to the society, as much as they respect professional. There is no stigma in being a Technical student there.

I still believe we have a good system. Now is the time we admit our mindset needs to catch up.

[nutx]

I still believe we have a good system. Now is the time we admit our mindset needs to catch up.

but our system change as the minister change.

[Chris]

True

Change is the only constant in this world

C'est La vie

[riot]

I still believe we have a good system. Now is the time we admit our mindset needs to catch up.

Yeah, agree with you there. The Singapore system isnt too bad- hell you will find our talent exported everywhere. Its a brand name- a product of the Singapore system gotta be hardworking, dilligent, willing to burn his weekends, careful and meticulous, and best of all, obedient (no stirkes:heh: ) . A model A worker

But seriously, will any parent accept that his/ her child is destinied to be a technician?

[flubberina13]

Wow!!! How this thread has evolved?

Anyway, it's great to see you guys concerned over the system. But what we do here is just 'coffee-shop' talk unless someone somewhere knows and feels that we do put in some consideration worhy to be taken note of in this thread...

And guys...let's continue to have an intellectual discussion and ensure that it is devoid of any grudges against whatever anybody said to anybody here...

Love ya...

[Chris]

I agree that this is a great discussion, and on something as close to our heart as reefing.

To change the mindset of a million parents, it has to start with one. The best parent ot start with would be ourselves. I dread to see parents sending their kids to K*m** where they are drilled in Maths, science, Eng at the age of two. What more, these parents become so obsessed with their kid's ability that they go on TV and show-off. Like 3 years old can know how many words, do multiplication. This is ignorance. What is the opportunity cost for the kid who can show off at 3 years old? He loses fun, play. At 7, when everybody in his P1 class starts learning the things he already knew so long ago, he either becomes bored with lessons or become a smart alec that others shun, turning him into a social reject.

I've been trying to tell parent....let the kid live a happy time and not make them into tools for you to show off.

All these make me lose faith in parenthood...that's why still hesitant on taking the plunge to be a parent. I'm just afraid I'll not do well.

[flubberina13]

L0VE is what that suffice...I am keen to put mine on the home-schooling network and also to follow me wherever I go...but one must have the discipline to follow through without shortchanging the childhood of one's child...