Vinegar Dosing

[noname777]

38 minutes ago, expat-reefer said:

50ppm NO3 ???
You might want to consider larger/more frequent water changes. In my experience, it’s always better to eliminate unwanted stuff by diluting via water change rather than adding another chemical to your closed system. Just my opinion though.


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That is why I would like to seek Thread starter advise as in how he did it ( From 50ppm -- 5ppm) in about 1 week by using Vinegar dosing.

I have been using the table accordingly but so far no results for me

[samuel88]

Duplicate post.

[samuel88]

50ppm NO3 ???
You might want to consider larger/more frequent water changes. In my experience, it’s always better to eliminate unwanted stuff by diluting via water change rather than adding another chemical to your closed system. Just my opinion though.


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I understand your concern, and I do agree water changes are a good practice, more importantly cause they add trace elements, but I've found in my 5 years of weekly 10-20 percent water changes my nitrates still remain at 50 ppm.

I also acknowledge why you might think adding foreign substances to a tank is not ideal but the science behind vinegar (or other source of carbon) dosing is quite natural.

The addition of vinegar or any source of carbon stimulates the growth of bacteria that eats up phosphates and nitrates, these bacteria are then eaten up by filter feeders or corals OR skimmed out by the protein skimmer.

Our reef tanks do not have enough available carbon sources to spur enough growth of bacteria to take up a substantial amount of nitrates and phosphates, thus the addition of vinegar. Other sources also include biopellets, vodka and sugar, all of which have some drawback which is why I chose vinegar.




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[samuel88]

Hi, I think there are many reasons why results may differ, chief among them might be nutrients in Vs nutrients out, perhaps you might have more sources of nutrients (fish waste and food) than I do?

If it helps, I do use activated carbon which has a lot of surface area for the bacteria that consumes vinegar and I use seachem matrix - which is purported to have vast surface area - as my biofiltration.

Lastly, I also set my protein skimmers to wet skim.

The bacteria also need phosphates to multiply, therefore. If you are running gfo to remove phosphates, that might be a limiting factor as the bacteria need a small amount of phosphates to consume the nitrates.

That is why I would like to seek Thread starter advise as in how he did it ( From 50ppm -- 5ppm) in about 1 week by using Vinegar dosing.
I have been using the table accordingly but so far no results for me

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[samuel88]

Ya I do agree about the part of chasing number, cause it's a guide line and there are many factors affecting the efficacy; available phosphates, protein skimmer, net nutrients available.

Please do read up more about it online and from other forums where many members use it like reefcentral.

For me. Changing water, usually shock my tank as my fish / coral appeared adversely towards it every time i change.
 
I feel the time + salt + water + effort to change water is not worth it. I prefer the dosing / nutrient export / refugium route even thou it cost more money (debatable) but I prefer to enjoy the hobby admiring it rather than being a slave to it every fortnight.
 
But to each its own, of course. Everyone might feel differently on the each approach.
 
I think is not wise to chase number, but to chase for stability instead.
 
 
 

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[noname777]

I used to place GFO but remove them after much reading and so on .

Maybe too much livestock is the issues.

1 x powder blue

9 x black clowns

6 x blue eye anthias 

4 x damsels

6 x green chromis

1 x algae blenny

[SubzeroLT]

6 hours ago, noname777 said:

Thanks Leon...I am using the above guide for current dosing and I am on Wk 3 already....so far nothing has happen yet.

Its due to "no" or "not enough" PO4 as mentioned?

Just measure your PO4 again to be sure.

 

Dosing Vinegar or Vodka or RedSea NoPox works for sure. You should see results within 2 weeks.

- Make sure PO4 is not zero. For example, Redsea NoPox recommends that phosphate absorbing media (eg GFO) be removed temporarily if your PO4 levels are very close to 0 or let's say close to ideal 0.03ppm levels.

- Make sure you have a good skimmer to remove the excess bacteria. That's how the 'nitrate/phosphate export' works where the carbon promotes growth of bacteria. The bacteria "consumes" nitrates & phosphates to form itself.  If your skimmer is not powerful enough or skimming too dry, then the extra bacteria produced remains in the water column. You can try to tune the skimmer to skim 'wetter' like 1/2 - 1 cup a day.

- And if you are confident, just increase the vinegar dose more aggressively.

 

 

And thanks Samuel88 for starting this topic. Good topic for healthy discussion.

[daveyy]

51 minutes ago, samuel88 said:

Ya I do agree about the part of chasing number, cause it's a guide line and there are many factors affecting the efficacy; available phosphates, protein skimmer, net nutrients available.

Please do read up more about it online and from other forums where many members use it like reefcentral.

 

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What do you suggest me to read?

[JMW]

Different strokes for differents folks, that’s the beauty of reefing. There’s no one proven method that shall work for every single system because each system is different.

at the end of the day, it’s all about export, which can be achieved by a multitude of ways 

[Komerider]

That is why I would like to seek Thread starter advise as in how he did it ( From 50ppm -- 5ppm) in about 1 week by using Vinegar dosing.
I have been using the table accordingly but so far no results for me

45 ppm in 7 days. Or about -7 ppm a day. If his tank load adds +3 ppm a day and his method drops 10ppm a day he gets this result. If your tank loads 13ppm a day and u follow his method and quantity and drop 10ppm a day ur net net still goes up. Aka `it doesn't work`. Get it. It's not just the method all of which revolves around adding different sources of carbon to grow bacteria to export the bad stuff. It's also about the intensity of the method, as every tank generates bioloads at different speeds.

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[Komerider]

I have a thread which states bio pellets as initially working but later not. The reason is simply because my bio load has increased but my bio pellet bacteria `farm size` hasn't.

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[noname777]

1 hour ago, Komerider said:

45 ppm in 7 days. Or about -7 ppm a day. If his tank load adds +3 ppm a day and his method drops 10ppm a day he gets this result. If your tank loads 13ppm a day and u follow his method and quantity and drop 10ppm a day ur net net still goes up. Aka `it doesn't work`. Get it. It's not just the method all of which revolves around adding different sources of carbon to grow bacteria to export the bad stuff. It's also about the intensity of the method, as every tank generates bioloads at different speeds.

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Thanks...will slowly increase intensity 

[noname777]

1 hour ago, Komerider said:

I have a thread which states bio pellets as initially working but later not. The reason is simply because my bio load has increased but my bio pellet bacteria `farm size` hasn't.

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Mind sharing the link?

[samuel88]

What do you suggest me to read?

Hi davry, I've found some useful info in the below links:

https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D1813810&ved=2ahUKEwja05Goie7bAhXbXSsKHZmPArEQFjACegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw24Tk4OqzepjUBUZ0WXmZ1K

https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/116-vinegar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium&ved=2ahUKEwja05Goie7bAhXbXSsKHZmPArEQFjAAegQIABAB&usg=AOvVaw0WbEnz1tjLYiSPVt5H4nkx

Just FYI, I find the dosing table in the latter link to be abit outdated. The first link is about people discussing what their dosing limits were.

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[samuel88]

I used to place GFO but remove them after much reading and so on .
Maybe too much livestock is the issues.
1 x powder blue
9 x black clowns
6 x blue eye anthias 
4 x damsels
6 x green chromis
1 x algae blenny

What's your tank size? Might be a lot or not depending on your tank plus filtration in place.

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[daveyy]

12 minutes ago, samuel88 said:

Hi davry, I've found some useful info in the below links:

https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php%3Ft%3D1813810&ved=2ahUKEwja05Goie7bAhXbXSsKHZmPArEQFjACegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw24Tk4OqzepjUBUZ0WXmZ1K

https://www.google.com.sg/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://reefkeeping.com/joomla/index.php/current-issue/article/116-vinegar-dosing-methodology-for-the-marine-aquarium&ved=2ahUKEwja05Goie7bAhXbXSsKHZmPArEQFjAAegQIABAB&usg=AOvVaw0WbEnz1tjLYiSPVt5H4nkx

Just FYI, I find the dosing table in the latter link to be abit outdated. The first link is about people discussing what their dosing limits were.

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I have read them before actually. (The first few page and the last few) didnt go through too indepth. 

I feel dosing according to the table is slightly safer. Didnt really want to push the limit. Are you dosing vinegar too? Able to share the regime?

[samuel88]

I have read them before actually. (The first few page and the last few) didnt go through too indepth. 
I feel dosing according to the table is slightly safer. Didnt really want to push the limit. Are you dosing vinegar too? Able to share the regime?

Ya I am dosing vinegar as well, for the first week I started with 1 ml for my 20 gallon for the first two days. Then 2ml for the 3 and 4 day, then 4ml for the next 3 days. Now I'm dosing 5 ml a day

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[samuel88]

Ya I am dosing vinegar as well, for the first week I started with 1 ml for my 20 gallon for the first two days. Then 2ml for the 3 and 4 day, then 4ml for the next 3 days. Now I'm dosing 5 ml a day

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I am planning to ramp up 1 ml a week until I hit 10 ml or start seeing bacterial blooms. The forum I think they mentioned they start having adverse effects until .5 ml per gallon which would translate to 10ml for my 20 gallon.

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[noname777]

If u get the desire No3...the dosing stops or continue?

[thisissoleceh]

For myself i continue dosing. Nitrates will always build up.


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[sherman]

On 6/22/2018 at 1:59 PM, expat-reefer said:

50ppm NO3 ???
You might want to consider larger/more frequent water changes. In my experience, it’s always better to eliminate unwanted stuff by diluting via water change rather than adding another chemical to your closed system. Just my opinion though.


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On 6/22/2018 at 2:09 PM, expat-reefer said:

Water changes also help replenish Ca, Mg and trace elements. This can reduce the amount of dosing required to maintain optimum levels. Marine salt, even the expensive brands, tend to be cheaper than Supplements.


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Water change do dilute your NO3 and replenish your 3 bigs plus all other macro and micro elements but not at value you want.

If you want to remove or adjust NO3 dose the requirement amount of carbon (vinegar)

If your alk is down dose the require amount base on your alk concentration .

Same with calcium, mg, macro and micro element

[samuel88]

I think you could continue dosing, but if you choose to stop you need to monitor if your nitrates go back up.

Could be that the tank just produces too much nitrates and you need a constant source of carbon to keep it at manageable levels.

If u get the desire No3...the dosing stops or continue?

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[sherman]

On 6/25/2018 at 8:34 PM, noname777 said:

If u get the desire No3...the dosing stops or continue?

You half the dose after the desire NO3 reach. And go back to full dose again when NO3 up