How to eliminate algae

[Full Hedge]

I run my filtration system based on promoting heterotrophic bacteria growth to outcompete algae via stoichiometric manipulation of nutrient levels( carbon dosing). Nitrates are 0ppm and phosphates less than 0.03ppm, consistently. However, I do have brown film algae (low biomass (However relative abundance may be important and is an unknown) but positive rate of increase, about 10cm^2 per day) growing on my tank walls that I regularly remove and hair algae (low biomass, 0 or negative rate of change).

The aim is for me is to eliminate algae via competitive exclusion and hence the need to clean my glass.

So I have a few strategies.

Looking at the Lotka-volterra model for interspecific competition, a high rival population will exert greater interspecific competition. If I have a high bacterial population and low algae population the bacteria should be exerting a large effect on the algae population, also considering for the fact that rate of change of algae population is low due to low population and high competition coefficient(since they are competing for the same nutrients that limit growth). However another note is that the bacteria may reach its carrying capacity very fast. If the bacteria biomass does not increase, the nutrient export mechanism halts and algae will uptake the remaining nutrient and grow. I doubt this because I do not notice much bacteria biofilm when i shake the media bag to dislodge the bacteria. Hence, I do not believe the bacteria has reached its carrying capacity. An improvement to the strategy may be to reduce disturbance rate and allow for bacteria biofilm to build up more significantly and only gently shake it. Hence exerting a larger competitive force on the algae population thus keeping their rate of increase lower.

Side note: While rate of change of algae biomass may be 0, it may not dip below 0 if the algae is adept at uptaking nutrients in a low nutrient environment. This is what i suspect. Also need to consider the functional response of the bacteria and algae. If there is a different functional response it will result in a changing competition coefficient according to nutrient level. Hence may end up with the algae thriving at low nutient levels.

Background to that thought: I did a simple experiment with a bacterial additive to investigate whether bacteria can reduce nitrate levels. Consist of 3 set ups and a control (tank saltwater). Set up 1 consist of bacteria and tank saltwater, set up 2 consist of bacteria, saltwater and one carbon pellet, set up 3(high availability of carbon)!consist of bacteria, saltwater and 10 carbon pellets. Set up 1 and control had the same level of nitrates. Set up 2 and 3 showed reduce nitrates. Duration of experiment, 3 days. Many flaws etc but shows that carbon and bacteria reduces nitrates. Effect of carbon alone unknown(should have created a control for that). However the key thing is that while it is a viable export method, Its effectiveness at outcompeting algae is unknown. One must consider the temporal dimension. Algae will thrive if it can uptake the nitrates in 1 day but bacteria takes 3 days. May also render the bacteria export completely useless via competitive exclusion. However, My experience and many others show it to be an effective nutrient export method.

 

Another thought

High nutrient availability reduces diversity of primary producers(plants) and mycorrhizal fungi. Likewise for plankton and algae.
Perhaps, high nutrient availability in the aquarium reduce diversity of primary producers (algae and bacteria)
However considering that most introduction of nutrient (nitrogen and phosphorous) is done by human intervention(feeding) rather than a continuous stream like in the ocean we should also take into account The concept of disturbance.
High disturbance generally reduce the diversity in a community via dispersal/reproductive exclusion. Low disturbance like wise via competitive exclusion. Intermediate exclusion results in the highest level of diversity because it prevents both sort of exclusion.

At low nutrient levels, competitive exclusion with the most efficient uptaker of nutrient. At high nutrient levels it is more complicated, I believe both can coexist in this case.
So considering that I should not disturb the bacterial population.

Another thought is on feeding corals at night. I am a big proponent of feeding corals, to provide them with necessary nutrition and trace elements. Feeding the corals at night with an efficient bacterial export has not resulted in any increase in algae but actually a decrease. I have also been feeding large amounts of food, reef roids, amino acids and red sea reef nutrition part A.

My take is that food is broken down rapidly and ammonia/nitrogenous compounds rapidly converted to nitrates by the chemotrophic(aka nitrifying) bacteria. The heterotrophic bacterial population increases with the uptake of nitrate. However the algae cannot grow at night since light is the limiting factor. Increased bacteria population will exert a larger interspecific competitive force on the algae population.

Sort of like a sucker punch approach.

To end off, Im going to be measuring the algae growth, changing rate of disturbance to the bacteria and amount fed to the corals at night. I have a simple model (improved lotka volterra) for this purpose and hopefully I can improve it with simple observation/data.

Im inclined to believe that reducing frequency of disturbance to bacteria population will help reduce rate of change of algae. Lets see how that goes.

Assumptions and fyi

I run the biopellets in a filter bag in a high flow area, not in a typical reactor. Allows me to control frequency of disturbance. I do not believe it is necessary.

I am assuming that most of the dislodged bacteria from disturbance will be exported via skimming or eaten by predator( filter feeder)

Side note, A population increase leads to Higher competitive force on B. Doesnt explain the mechanism and glosses over many other factors. Also needs to include a time dimension. Studying that. 

[Full Hedge]

I need to add that my perspective might be wrong.
If bacteria growth is the key mechanism what i may need to be looking at is finding the optimal bacterial population size to maximise the growth(export speed). So considering disturbance rate, intraspecific competition and carrying capacity rather than looking at interspecific competition.

A more holistic view should consider both.

Carrying capacity is dynamic especially since I am still adding fish. Intraspecific competition, I am less worried about since it should not change too much when expressed as a product of the population. Or to express it mathematically that way might be the wrong approach. One based of limiting factors may be better.

A side note, I need to develop a method to guage the bacterial population. Standardised or random sampling of substrate(biopellet) under microscope is one but impractical for me. Suggestions?

[Full Hedge]

Ok i figured a way
Assume that the carbon from the biopellet is incorporated into the bacterial biomass.
Then measure the weight of a sample of used biopellet and set a sample average of unused biopellet as a baseline benchmark.

Can verify the method by collecting data and seeing if the assumption is valid.

More importantly is to have a measure of relative change.

Another method is to go the chemical route. Possibly by measuring the amount of nitrogen in a sample of biopellet. Biopellet is hydroxylalkanoate. Doesnt contain nitrogen. Nitrogen can be inferred to be from the bacterial biomass. But interferes with the population and I havent figured how Im going to do that.

[Jidan]

Following this thread. Goodlucks on your research bro

[soggycookies]

Great info here bro, props to what you’re setting out to accomplish. That said, even with optimal parameters algae is definitely gonna grow whenever it wants to. Can’t control nature bro, it goes where it wants to haha

 

 

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[Jeebusai]

Im fighting some brown looking algae for the past 2 weeks. Most likely got it from the rocks in old tank. I have a missing yellow watchman goby. Could have been a cause too? (I really can pinpoint) 

Its driving me nuts! I have been washing the protein skimmer cup and changing the wool daily. Changed the position of the wavemaker, even ordered another one. Bacteria dosing, cleaning the glass. It has improved a bit, but seems like it always come back with a vengence. Any advice bros? Trying not to use chemi clean as my tank is still pretty new.

Thanks!

Forgot to mention. My water parameters are :

Calcium 420

Akalinity 9.2

Magnesium 1280

Nitrates 10<

Ammonia 0

Phosphates 0

Salinity 10.25

PH 8.1-8.25 (should i add some buffers)?

[Schwantz]

What sort of clean up crew do you have? Get some turbo snails. You would need approximately 1 for ever 20 liter of display water.


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[Jeebusai]

Just now, Schwantz said:

What sort of clean up crew do you have? Get some turbo snails. You would need approximately 1 for ever 20 liter of display water.


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Thats quite a lot. Going to get some this weekend! Thanks!

 

[sherman]

Your PO4 reading using what to measure?

Your MG is too low

[Jeebusai]

2 hours ago, sherman said:

Your PO4 reading using what to measure?

Your MG is too low

Salifert 

i added foundation C (can’t remember which alphabet). Let me check again the readings. After the supplement. 

[Jeebusai]

Updates went to ah Beng to buy some snails. Let see if it will help a bit. Off the light for today. 

[Schwantz]

Updates went to ah Beng to buy some snails. Let see if it will help a bit. Off the light for today. 

How many and what type did you get?

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[Jeebusai]

2 minutes ago, Schwantz said:

How many and what type did you get?

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Currently I have a yellow tang and coral beauty that nips the rocks. Cleaner shrimp and one goby that goes around disturbing the sand. 

Bought 3 turbos for algae and 2 for sand bed. Btw thanks for the reminder after changing tank, completely forgot about the clean up crew. If it’s not enough will get some more on Saturday. Don’t dare to bring such a big bag back to office  lol

 

[sherman]

1 hour ago, Jeebusai said:

Salifert 

i added foundation C (can’t remember which alphabet). Let me check again the readings. After the supplement. 

Salifert PO4 reading not accurate.  Try to use Hanna ULR

[Jeebusai]

Just now, sherman said:

Salifert PO4 reading not accurate.  Try to use Hanna ULR

Thanks bro. Let me go and check it out. 

[SubzeroLT]

What's your dosing or feeding regime like?

Usually hair algae & diatoms appear with excessive feeding/supplement dosing + excessive light.

[Jeebusai]

What's your dosing or feeding regime like?
Usually hair algae & diatoms appear with excessive feeding/supplement dosing + excessive light.

I was feeding 2X a day last week. Cos my clown eating all the food. After the diatoms exploded. Reduced to once a day.

Realized there are quite a few dead spots for water flow. Shifted the rocks and wave maker. Ordered another one too. My light settings are pretty low compared to most. Lol

I’m using AI Hydra HD 26 X 2.


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[SubzeroLT]

I used to have serious diatoms. A couple of things that worked for me :

- Reduced feeding or going with pellets instead of frozen food to fishes can help. Reduce feeding to corals. 

- If its diatoms, siphon out instead of blowing it away. Siphoning them out is the best way to 'export' the silicates & associated nutrients. Blowing it away is only a temporary/visual measure but it'll always surely come back

- Reduce or stop dosing trace elements

- Installed a waterfall ATS (worked for me)

- Reduce lights. Perhaps you can share your light settings in your tank thread

- Get big eater invertebrates (eg. Abalone). IMO, snails & sea cucumbers are very slow. Sea hare works but many find they die very fast.

[Jeebusai]

I used to have serious diatoms. A couple of things that worked for me :
- Reduced feeding or going with pellets instead of frozen food to fishes can help. Reduce feeding to corals. 
- If its diatoms, siphon out instead of blowing it away. Siphoning them out is the best way to 'export' the silicates & associated nutrients. Blowing it away is only a temporary/visual measure but it'll always surely come back
- Reduce or stop dosing trace elements
- Installed a waterfall ATS (worked for me)
- Reduce lights. Perhaps you can share your light settings in your tank thread
- Get big eater invertebrates (eg. Abalone). IMO, snails & sea cucumbers are very slow. Sea hare works but many find they die very fast.

Trying to google the ATS. Looks interesting.

I can’t access my AI (can’t create cloud account)

Here’s my settings at peak.

UV 30
Violet 55
Royal 55
Blue 75
Green 5
Deep Red 5
White 30


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[SubzeroLT]

Hope you do get your AI cloud issue resolved. That's one of the fantastic features of the light set. 

An image of your light settings can tell a lot (eg. ramp time, peak timing etc).

From 1st glance, you have a lot of white in proportion to your blues (i.e. can be reduced). That could be one of the sources of your issues.

 

[Jeebusai]

Hope you do get your AI cloud issue resolved. That's one of the fantastic features of the light set. 
An image of your light settings can tell a lot (eg. ramp time, peak timing etc).
From 1st glance, you have a lot of white in proportion to your blues (i.e. can be reduced). That could be one of the sources of your issues.
 

Sorry. Don’t quite understand regarding the proportion of blues vs white. Does white includes UV? What’s the proportion like. More blues or more whites.

Don’t think the cloud issue can be resolved. Bought both lights used and I can’t register my product again. Gave me lots of headache initially just to get it right. Partly due to my Arlo IP cam.


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[SubzeroLT]

There are many ways to set it. Proportion wise, set the whites around 15% (LPS) to 30% (SPS) with respect to your blues (eg. 100%). 

UV contributes to some fluorescent pigments to become more vivid. Mine is around 50% of Blues but don't foresee an issue moving it to equivalent to blue levels slowly over time once the corals are acclimatized. 

 

 

[Jeebusai]

15 minutes ago, SubzeroLT said:

There are many ways to set it. Proportion wise, set the whites around 15% (LPS) to 30% (SPS) with respect to your blues (eg. 100%). 

UV contributes to some fluorescent pigments to become more vivid. Mine is around 50% of Blues but don't foresee an issue moving it to equivalent to blue levels slowly over time once the corals are acclimatized. 

 

 

Thanks bro. Appreciate ur inputs. Learnt a lot from many of the bros here too. I had a very steep learning curve with lots of hiccups. But I will persevere lol

[Jeebusai]

Here’s a screen shot of my light settings and a pic of my skimmer everyday. The wool is just as bad but I can throw that away. The micron bag smells horrible man. Can’t eat after that. 

[Jeebusai]

2 hours ago, SubzeroLT said:

There are many ways to set it. Proportion wise, set the whites around 15% (LPS) to 30% (SPS) with respect to your blues (eg. 100%). 

UV contributes to some fluorescent pigments to become more vivid. Mine is around 50% of Blues but don't foresee an issue moving it to equivalent to blue levels slowly over time once the corals are acclimatized. 

 

 

Trying to adjust now. I presume there’s only one white? Unless UV is considered white? 

Adjusted my lights abit to cater 30% white