Skimmers not required for cycling?

[jason]

so AT, how? CNY is around the corner

[Achilles Tang]

Ah no.. sorry... my tank just went thru a bad patch of cyano and hair algae... waiting for my big new skimmer to come in... before restocking.... kinda empty now.... I won't be having any tank viewing till I have more money to get more livestock.

Keeping my bioload very low right now as my H&S skimmer is too small for my new tank.

[Wei]

Hi AT,

I have seen a no. of skimless tank that is doing very well. So, i think it shouldn't be the skimmer.

could it be you feed too much or add too many stuff within a short period which cause this problem? Does yr tank have any dead spot that accumlate waste?

Wei

[Achilles Tang]

Hi AT,

I have seen a no. of skimless tank that is doing very well. So, i think it shouldn't be the skimmer. 

could it be you feed too much or add too many stuff within a short period which cause this problem? Does yr tank have any dead spot that accumlate waste?

Wei 

It's definitely my PS... if you see the size of my tank and the size of my PS, you'll instantly understand. I thought my H&S could cope, but I was wrong. Besides, my sandbed is not matured yet.

My new 4ft DIY alvy-foamer (haha)... will be perfect for maintaining excellent water quality.

I am a firm believer in feeding heavy (that's what caused the cyano bloom/hair algae bloom)... and skimming heavy.

Many people underfeed their tanks because of water maintenance issues. Did you know you can actually 'starve' a DSB?

And once you move onto SPS corals... you need excellent water conditions which only skimming can bring (or very frequent water changes, very limited livestock etc to reduce phosphate problems).

Even a few well-known skimmerless reefers in RC have given up on going without one because they notice their tanks going downhill over time, once adding a good PS... their tank perks up. Think about it... where does that thick, black smelly gunk in the collection cup comes from? It's in the water!!!

I have reeftecs in my tank... what dead spots?

[Explorer]

Even a few well-known skimmerless reefers in RC have given up on going without one because they notice their tanks going downhill over time, once adding a good PS... their tank perks up. Think about it... where does that thick, black smelly gunk in the collection cup comes from? It's in the water!!!

Agreed on that. Seen some of them run proudly for a while and then.....

[rrrobt]

wei,

you say go without skimmer but y

1 ] you using ocra ?

2 ] you upgrade to remora ?

you should not buy at all.

maybe you are right to say skimmless if only that guy put 3 or 4 small coral and 3 or 4 small fishes and very little feeding in 4 or 5 FT tank. which i think no 1 will do that.

so skimmer is a must.

PHANG ,you got 1 less sps memeber haha

[Wei]

Hi rrrobt,

i am highlighting the pt of not using a skimmer for woonming since he got no budget for a gd one. Advise him to cycle his tank without a skimmer & save up during that few mths.

My discussion with AT is abt how impt a PS play in the role to a successful setup. Since when did i not recommend not to use a PS for anyone system. Its going case by case.

If one is to have heavy feeding & stocking a high bioload, then a powerful skimmer is the way to go.

Why I use an orcra?

Cos 5-6 yrs ago, i know nuts abt reefkeeping. kena cheated to buy an orcra. Well, it only skim light green liquid out. Makes no diff, might as well use a polyfilter. That time, I had 1 Tang, 2 angel, 2 clown, 1 gramma, 1 goby & a hawk. Over 15 pieces of LPS, Softies & 2 frag of SPS in a 2.5 ft. I also adopt heavy feeding due to the no. of fishes I had. Well, I can see my plenum sys got problem coping with it cos of limited surface area. need to scape tank glass every 3-4 days.

Then I decided to order a remora from states. I never regret it. It skim instantly.

"you should not buy at all."

Haha, i have my eyes to see & know what benefits my tank. Besides, its my money I am spending. Thks for yr advise.

Do not under estimate the amount of load a DSB can handle if you give the sandbed a chance to stablise & populate with diverse organism in it. Yr description of 4-5 corals & a few fishes for a 4-5ft tank with DSB filtration is a joke right! It can support at least a dozen fishes & a number of corals(corals produce low bioload) without any problem. That provide you aquascape yr tank in a way that abt 60% of yr sandbed is not covered and u dun dump everything at one go.

Skimmer a must? It depend on many factors on how u keep yr tank. Do not narrow things out too fast, there are many diff sides to evaluate before one can come into a conclusion. especially in this hobby.

Besides, I'm still waiting for my Beckett 630. Going to experiment how overskimming will affect LPS, SPS, Soft corals, bivalve & sponges. of course, the true answer i am after is of course how to have all the above inverts & corals to live happy & grow in my tank with min. problems.

Sps is definately on my must get list. So phang, u are losing any sps reefer. I am just into keeping everything under one tank. Not into just solely sps.

Happy CNY!

Wei handover all yr Ang Bao!

[Phang]

ERrhhhhhhhhh?????

Why are you two dragging me into this????

[rrrobt]

somenewbie think - is not a must have in order to have a successful setup - so they will not use and in the end they are in trouble. maybe should change - is not a must - to something esle.

[ Then I decided to order a remora from states. I never regret it. It skim instantly. ]

upgraded from orca to remora and now upgrading to Beckett 630 and - is not a must -. AT i blur lah newbie lagi blur :eyeblur:

anyway i am glade you [ know what benefits my tank]

just like to know who in this forum is without skimmer ?im not an expert but just a beginner in reef ,on and off ,on and off 10+ year .

after all we are just trying to help newbie

O is good to know woonming is getting her skimmer soon

happy cny wei and all

[Wei]

Hi rrrobt,

i shall hightlight this pt again if u miss it again.

My discussion with AT is abt how impt a PS play in the role to a successful setup. Since when did i not recommend not to use a PS for anyone system. U can stock the tank to the no. of livestocks a dsb can handle without a skimmer. MMud also does not have a skimmer. it uses macro algae. It need skimmer? Yes & no. If u stock too fast before the filtration can stablise, then u need one to correct the mistake one commit previously.

Its going case by case.

haha, i got into trouble? Hair algae? cyano? nope. I add a skimmer so that I can overstock my tank.

upgraded from orca to remora and now upgrading to Beckett 630

Haha, upgrade??? if i got the budget to play ard with, why not. Anyway, its going to use for my next tank. i am collecting equipments so i no need to dump 1 load of $$ at 1 go. This skimmer is too big for my current tank, so might as well experiment with overskimming of tank & know the pros & cons. use a beckett permantly on my 3ft, no no.

anyway i am glade you [ know what benefits my tank]

of course i know wat benefits my tank and I know wat i am doing.

Well, i am stating a general fact. In general, if one is to start his tank properly, can go wif or w/o a PS. The need for a PS in the future depend on how one keep & maintain his tank. Start a tank without a PS is a sure failure? I doubt so. For yr tank? Maybe, maybe not?

For woonming case, as i have stated alot of times, go without one while cycling his tank first since he doesn't have the budget. Unless you are going to sponsor woonming, then he will surely have one up & running soon. Probably AT's H&S he gonna sell at $800. I have also recommend him H&S, schuran, tunze, etc but his budget dun allow.

"after all we are just trying to help newbie"

yup, i enjoy helping woonming. THroughout my discussion with him, i just stating the factors, pros & cons & working within his budget.

If one is to have a $2k budget. tank 0.7k. Lighting 0.3k pumps & PH 0.2-0.4k. accessories like test kit & hydrometer, etc. 0.2k. livestock, LR, sand 0.4K total= ard 1.8k. with just $200, wat do you recommend for a skimmer? get 3 orcra?

Sander? then upgrade again cos he need a better one?

Hope you get my pt this time. Use the facts as ammo to fight for yr pt, not plain accusation.

Happy Chinese New Year to all!

Wei

[Achilles Tang]

Aiyoh..

Rrrobt... I think both of us misunderstood Wei.... he meant to say that a newbie may not need a PS during the cycling period and provided he doesn't stock up while waiting to save up enough to get a good skimmer.

I think the word 'setup' can be highly misunderstood and subjective.

Add the word 'initial' before 'setup' and I think that is what Wei meant!

For a 'permanent' setup.... a skimmer is a MUST, unless one decides to go without one knowing the consequences.

Wei... when you stated 'a successful setup'... you made people think that a 'long term setup' doesn't require a PS.

Now that this explanation is settled... no one should be confused why Wei said one thing and does another thing.

He meant the 'INITIAL CYCLING' only.

Now let's get to topic... is the gathering still on?

[Wei]

Hi AT,

just to summarise my pt & I will rest my case. No pt exchanging diff opinion as it will end up to plain accusation to personal attack which i find it quite childish. lucky i got enough cover to protect me from the shots! hahaha.

1) one can have a setup without any skimmer throughout if,

a)He add things slowly & allow the filtration to stablise

b)Not to overstock his tank beyond wat the DSB can handle.

c)Does not adopt to too heavy feeding usless he had a very gd circulation & all unwanted detrius got washed to the filter floss.

d)add a refugium will be better and plankton can get into the water column as there is no skimmer removing them.(optional)

e)this person must know wat he wants to achieve at the end of the day without using a skimmer. know the pros & cons. know wat he is doing.

Thats how pple learn from experience, not just solely on books.

2) why should get a skimmer.

a)using one means yr tank is more forgiving to some mistakes.

b)when 1 is experiencing cyano or hair algae problem & its taking over their tank, then a skimmer should come in to remedy the problem.

c)one intend to overstock their tank beyond their tank can handle. using a skimmer rated up to 6X or more yr tank turnover rate per hour means overskimming. One will get ultra gd water quality, no plankton in water column, feeding of plankton is useless unless one off the skimmer during. Yr tank will be over dependant on yr skimmer, a breakdown on yr skimmer will mean bloom in excess nutrients in tank as yr filtration in tank does have the power to handle the load. need to constantly check the salnity as skimmer also skim out salt.

d)a newbie is recommended to get a gd skimmer unless one does not have the budget and close guidance will be needed. skimmer can remedy some of the mistake one commit but not fully. one will need to dump in extra cash for chemicals. Worse case, during algae bloom, one still dose lots of calcium. End up excess amount of PO4 bind with calcium to calcium phoshate and form a layer on the surface of rocks. One will still experience occasional cyano & hair algae boom as it draw its nutrients from the layer of calcium phoshate on the rock even with gd water quality.

Conclusion: A gd start will save u tons of money & time. Do you need a skimmer? go through the factors & u will know if u need one.

Wei

[Achilles Tang]

In case some of you are wondering how come this thread started so strangely... it was actually part of another thread that became out of topic... so I moved it out to its own.

[Achilles Tang]

Hi Wei...

So can we take it that you are an advocator of going skimmerless?

You seem to be encouraging newbies to try going skimmerless.

Conclusion: A gd start will save u tons of money & time. Do you need a skimmer? go through the factors & u will know if u need one.

Whatever the case, you shouldn't feel too personal abt exchanging opinions... as long as we dun force our opinions down other people's throats or having baseless accusations. I think Rrrobt was equally confused abt why you seemed to be advocating 'going skimmerless' to a newbie but you are personally upgrading your skimmers. I dun think he meant any offense and there should be none taken.

Perhaps you were trying to teach self-control in reef-keeping?

[hongqixian]

This debate is getting interesting and it is informative but please try to prevent this thread from becoming a flame fest. At this point it seems to be on the brink.

[Achilles Tang]

Nah, dun see that happening here! What flame fest? If you want flame fest, go to Reef Central!

This is SRC! And I won't allow that kind of atmosphere here.

We're friendly folks exchanging different views that's all... I am sure we're not petty people.

[onghm]

This is definitely a very educational discussion about skimming.

Very enlightening as all the contributers got substance man

Hi Wei,

Don't mind I ask a question, by the way, I'm a newbie, so pls pardon my ignorance.

Worse case, during algae bloom, one still dose lots of calcium. End up excess amount of PO4 bind with calcium to calcium phoshate and form a layer on the surface of rocks. One will still experience occasional cyano & hair algae boom as it draw its nutrients from the layer of calcium phoshate on the rock even with gd water quality.

Pls correct my understanding if its wrong.

I thought encouraging coralline algae by maintaining good calcium level would help to outgrow the nuisance algae ?

In your opinion, during algae bloom, what's the right level of calcium to maintain ?

Is 420 ppm too much ?

Thanks in advance,

[Wei]

Hi AT,

So can we take it that you are an advocator of going skimmerless?

You seem to be encouraging newbies to try going skimmerless.

ans: not really, i using a skimmer now also. last time, maybe. Not qualify now. Main pt is just to hightlight the possibility. if one does not have the self control & commit some of the common mistake like stocking too fast, etc, then forget abt going skimless. Even if one use Miracle Mud, no miracle will happen also. I will encourage one to go skimless if u want to take up this challenge. U will learn & gain more experience from it as it is less forgiving.

This is a forum that is very focus on just reefkeeping which i like. End of the day, its the exchanging of info & knowledge that benefit us, not flaming. U pple & even someone new here certainly know some stuff in this hobby that i dun, so by helping each other out, we can refine the technique of reefkeeping and bring it to another level.

Wei

[pospeh]

Onghm,

Its too late thinking about maintaining calcium levels in the middle of an algae bloom.

Also as Wei pointed out, po4 will bind with the free calcium to form calcium phosphate

Coralline cannot grow where there are algae (no matter what the calcium and light levels are), so your first priority is to solve the algae bloom by eliminating the excess PO4 and NO2.

After you have the algae problem solved, maintainng 450 PPM of calcium will promote coralline growth, but they will grow VERY slowly!!

[onghm]

Understood.

Thanks Pospeh

[Wei]

Hi onghm,

wait! JUst got back from my ang bao collection trip!

"I'm a newbie, so pls pardon my ignorance."

Can talk in same level, like chatting? makes me feel abit uneasy. I am a newbie before too.

if you are experiencing cyano or hair algae bloom, that means u have excessive PO4, NO3, etc in yr water column. Coralline is a slow growing algae, therefore u want it to compete with other unwanted algae? Success rate, very very low.

Dosing of kalk will help in reducing cyano bloom cos it take away the "O", reduce NO3! COnfusing? I should have state more clearly.

From the start of a new system, there will confirm be some calcium phosphate covering the rocks and sand. More or less of the layer formed will be determine how one dose their calcium chloride & carbonate. Kalk is a 1 part calcium, 1 part carbonate, so its safe. Uneven dosage on one of the chemical, u will be building a storage of nutrients for the unwanted algae to fall back on. So, if you are experiencing cyano bloom, kalk is the safest way to raise yr calcium & reduce cyano growth.

"Worse case, during algae bloom, one still dose lots of calcium. End up excess amount of PO4 bind with calcium to calcium phoshate and form a layer on the surface of rocks. One will still experience occasional cyano & hair algae boom as it draw its nutrients from the layer of calcium phoshate on the rock even with gd water quality."

therefore, the above pt is only valid to those dosing calcium chloride & carbonate additive. Excess + ion or - ion issit good. Dose cautiously. If one doesn't have the time to mix kalk but no budget to get a ca reactor, there is 2 brand that is easier to use. B-ionic and Grotech. If u add 1ml of CA, u will need to add 1ml of carbonate. Ratio is 1:1. Very straight forward & easy to use. Chances of ionic imbalance is alot lower. not like other brand which some calculation is needed.

Level of CA to maintain is not an issue here, but the ionic imbalance that promote more calcium phosphate to form covering rocks & sand.

Wei

[onghm]

Hi onghm,

wait! JUst got back from my ang bao collection trip!

"I'm a newbie, so pls pardon my ignorance."

Can talk in same level, like chatting? makes me feel abit uneasy. I am a newbie before too.

if you are experiencing cyano or hair algae bloom, that means u have excessive PO4, NO3, etc in yr water column. Coralline is a slow growing algae, therefore u want it to compete with other unwanted algae? Success rate, very very low.

Dosing of kalk will help in reducing cyano bloom cos it take away the "O", reduce NO3! COnfusing? I should have state more clearly.

From the start of a new system, there will confirm be some calcium phosphate covering the rocks and sand. More or less of the layer formed will be determine how one dose their calcium chloride & carbonate. Kalk is a 1 part calcium, 1 part carbonate, so its safe. Uneven dosage on one of the chemical, u will be building a storage of nutrients for the unwanted algae to fall back on. So, if you are experiencing cyano bloom, kalk is the safest way to raise yr calcium & reduce cyano growth.

"Worse case, during algae bloom, one still dose lots of calcium. End up excess amount of PO4 bind with calcium to calcium phoshate and form a layer on the surface of rocks. One will still experience occasional cyano & hair algae boom as it draw its nutrients from the layer of calcium phoshate on the rock even with gd water quality."

therefore, the above pt is only valid to those dosing calcium chloride & carbonate additive. Excess + ion or - ion issit good. Dose cautiously. If one doesn't have the time to mix kalk but no budget to get a ca reactor, there is 2 brand that is easier to use. B-ionic and Grotech. If u add 1ml of CA, u will need to add 1ml of carbonate. Ratio is 1:1. Very straight forward & easy to use. Chances of ionic imbalance is alot lower. not like other brand which some calculation is needed.

Level of CA to maintain is not an issue here, but the ionic imbalance that promote more calcium phosphate to form covering rocks & sand.

Wei

Hi Wei,

Thanks a lot for your very detailed explanation.

Currently, I'm dosing Seachem Reef Complete (calcium) and Seachem Reef Carbonate separately.

Will switch to B-ionic.

Thanks again,

[Achilles Tang]

Onghm,

IMO, dosing kalkwasser in conjuction with a calcium reactor is the best way of introducing balanced levels of calcium in a reef tank.

Kalk also has the added benefit of precipating out phosphate as well as raising alk and ph in a 1:1 proportion. This feature alone will contribute to creating bad conditions for cyano/nuisance algae.

Using B-ionic is good but may be not as cheap to use for the long term as compared to using kalkwasser.

[Achilles Tang]

Hi Wei,

How was ang pow collection? I had to give out almost $400 in cash...

Oh well, back to the debate:

ans: not really, i using a skimmer now also. last time, maybe. Not qualify now. Main pt is just to hightlight the possibility. if one does not have the self control & commit some of the common mistake like stocking too fast, etc, then forget abt going skimless. Even if one use Miracle Mud, no miracle will happen also. I will encourage one to go skimless if u want to take up this challenge. U will learn & gain more experience from it as it is less forgiving.

Ahh... but I think this trend is beginning to lose ground over time as even advanced hobbyists in the US who used to advocated skimmerless tanks are not realising that the long-term condition of their tanks cannot be ensured. They have begun to understand how skimmers are an important component of keeping their water quality at a high level. The Germans never seemed to advocate going skimmerless as much as some radical US hobbyists.... maybe they did in the beginning... but now look at how advanced their skimmers are.

I doubt if a newbie would take up the challenge of going skimmerless, especially for big tanks... for nano tanks.. they have no choice. Frequent water changes has to be part of their maintenance schedule. But then again, I would never encourage newbies to start off with nano tanks. It would be too much work, too much livestock at risk.

This is a forum that is very focus on just reefkeeping which i like. End of the day, its the exchanging of info & knowledge that benefit us, not flaming. U pple & even someone new here certainly know some stuff in this hobby that i dun, so by helping each other out, we can refine the technique of reefkeeping and bring it to another level.

Yup! Agreed! I have learnt so much and I feel that we have to share with our fellow hobbyists so we can bring Singapore's level of marine tank keeping to a high standard.

[Tanzy]

Dosing of kalk will help in reducing cyano bloom cos it take away the "O", reduce NO3! COnfusing? I should have state more clearly.

Please elaborate. I don't understand how adding calcium hydroxide solution will remove oxygen and how it's related to nitrates.

AT,

Adding alk will increase pH over time but not in a 1:1 ratio. Alk is measured in meq/L and pH is a log scale. pH is the measurement for the concentration of hydrogen ion in water. Their relationship is a bit more complicated and can be express as an equation but will not be accurate in the case of saltwater with so many other ions present.