How did my tank Crash?/ despite no No2, Nh3?

[joachimsim]

Hi,

Guys...know gonna get some criticisms frm you abt hurrying a new 3 feet start up that crashed but hear me out.

I recently upgraded from a 2 FT to a 3 Ft tankwith I-box and sump and all.

My 3 ft tank has abt 30 Kg for Grade 0 sand at 1.5 inches high/...perhaps don't qualify for DSB.

I threw in my Threadfin butterfly that was in my 2 Ft for some time..I Complained that it ate my XENA remember.. after 3 days of cycling,,with additions of LR and live sand from my 2 feet.

It lived well past 1 week before I added NEW LS from a farm...Coral Beauty, 2 Percula clowns ( $1 EACH ) They lived well past a few days...after which I included a Weipro 2013 PS...and transferred all my LS from my 2 Feet into the 3FT...rocks in the refugium and my DAmsel and clown included.

However....my fishes started to get sick and died one by one few days ago!!...leaving my old clown fish from 2 ft as only fish survivor...Of course my Corals , Snails and Starfish are still alive..and kicking

Even my tough damsel died!!!

I am quite surprised at the 3/4 Crash...cos I found no surge in NH3 with my Seachem Stick on Nh3 alert, no to very low NO2 with my Aquarium Pharmaceuticals as well as Nutrafin No2 test kits!!

So how did my fishes all die after I feed with brine shrimps etc...?? when water quality is apparently stable from Large volume of water ( 200 ++ Litres ) Seasoned LR from Old tank and some Live sand to seed my new sand bed??? IN addition i have a PS..

Me heart ache now...

Jo

[FuEl]

It's a real easy guess. Some beneficial bacteria might have died off during the transfer. And before the beneficial bacteria could colonise to safe levels, the newly added fish from the farms added to an extra bioload which the bacteria had a tough time handling.

A short spike in ammonia is all you need to have your lifestock dying. Probably when you measured the water parameters the ammonia was taken care of already.

[arcanehacker]

from what I can derive from your explaniation is:

You have not completed the cycle. You added some more fishes. They die one by one coz the cycle IS NOT over yet. During that few days or 1 week, your fishes die because of slight ammonia and nitrite spike. When did you say you tested the water? After the fishes died then you tested? Probably cycle over already.

[nutx]

If you are using NO2 test kit from Aquarium Pharmaceuticals, the reading must be in the 0 zone.

Probably, tho the initial cycling is completed, the new stock that you added in trigger another round of cycling.

However, just to share with you that for my tank, I had problem with fishes in the first 3 months also. Just put 1 fish in and it will die after 1 week. When I have more than 10 corals inside doign very well, as well as clams. Water parameters are stable. (and I was changing 10-20% water every 2-3 weeks)

Then I add in some carbon and after that, I'm quite successful with fish now. Not sure whether is the carbon, or just tank get more stabled.

[Tanggy]

Too much too fast. Conditions keep changing and the stress of moving your fish.

What you should have done is run the tank empty for a couple of days with only sand. Then put all your live rocks in and start the cycle. without fish. How much live rocks do you have??

From a two feet you cant have that much rocks rite. so when you transfer, there some die off. The bacteria population very low. but you noly have one fish so prob it can still cope.

But later you added more rock, which caused a restart of your cycling. And the ls all in such a short time doesnt help.

[Tanggy]

I did my cycling in 5days. I ran the tank empty fir 1 day, then added all my lr from my matured tank. approx 110-120kg. And water from my 3ft. then ran it without fish until i detected a peak in NH3, the NO2 afterwhich both drop to 0 and NO3 wnet up. Did a partial water change and added only 3 fish into over 200gallon of water. left it there for a week and tested water regularly.

Then i added fish 1 or 2 at a time. And suplements with bacteria culture. it is now 1mth old and I have a total of 7 cardinals, 4clowns and 2 moderate size tangs. so ralatively low bios load I think. Stand to be corrected.

So far only one casualty. A true perc which acted funny the first day I put him in (always swim on top and a one corner) and after 2day dissappeared.

PS: the 5 day started when I put in rocks. and on the 4th day, NH3 and NO2 drop to 0

[joachimsim]

To tangy and company, thanks for your experiences.

1)actually to be specific I have abt 40 Kg of Grade 0 Sand in my 3Feet plus a thin layer in my Refugium....

2)I let it run for 3 days before throwing in my Coral Terminator Threadfin butterfly from my 2 feet. I also added some LS from my 2FT and a small bag of Ceramic RIngs.

3) I monitored my water parameters and found no spikes for Nh3 and NO2...even after adding another 5 KG of LR from Pasir Ris farm

4) After 1 week....I did the full transfer of my LRs from my 2 FT ( ABT 8 KG) again I monitored the water parameters but no spikes...Most of the ring I put in my refugium as it can fit there.. I made sure that I did the transfer very quickly without much prolonged exposure to air.

My corals I put on a drip system to accalamatise it better before transferring it to the new tank along with my damsel and Sebae Clown.

5) So the live Stock has not increased...but water volume has!

I think a few days later to a week..I put in my my coral beauty , and 2 clowns...after I fed with brine shrimps..I could see that their condition deteroriated. with spots and white slime...then MATI one by ONE..

now except for my Sebae all the fishes are dead.

TO NUTX : my experience with carbon ( Chemi-PUre ) in my 2 feet was that even after 2 mths..my NO2 levels did not drop despite water changes etc..my damsel and clowns can Tahan but not a Bi-coloured angel ..which died the next day.

Kelstorm's explanation to me was that you should not intro carbon into the tank whilst in cycling stage...cos you did not allow th Nh3 levels to peak and subsequent NO2 hence you get a constant registration of NO2 ...

I think my NO2 levels only dropped till 3 mths later..when I into my Threadfin angel...and it could live very well..

Hence I guess it is true that 3 mths is what most tanks..need to really mature.

I Heard also don;t On the PRotein SKimmers during the CYCLCING period cos the Same abv reasons? Can somebody comment on this?

[strat]

How much of life rocks do you have now?

If best, post your water parameters.

[Tanggy]

So i am confuse. the 30kg rocks is not from your matured tank?? From LFS?? From other reefers??

That must be an increase in NH3 and NO2 for cycling. Even for me all my stuff from matured tank even water, the NH3 will rise and NO2 too. Coz there is bound to be some die offs one.

If your rocks is from LFS or other reefers, cycling will be longer. even if cured, the time taken for transport will cause die offs.

So the main thing is your 30kg of LR in your 3ft. are they cured and do they have enough bact on them to support the whole tank?

Not trying to criticise you. just trying to find the reason. if your stuff not all from matured tanks, 1 week is way too short to cycle. You might not have even peak your NH3 and NO2 yet.

[bawater]

5) So the live Stock has not increased...but water volume has!

ITO NUTX : my experience with carbon ( Chemi-PUre ) in my 2 feet was that even after 2 mths..my NO2 levels did not drop despite water changes etc..my damsel and clowns can Tahan but not a Bi-coloured angel ..which died the next day.

Hence I guess it is true that 3 mths is what most tanks..need to really mature.

I Heard also don;t On the PRotein SKimmers during the CYCLCING period cos the Same abv reasons? Can somebody comment on this?

point 5. Its new water volume - unless you took all 200l from the 2ft.

3 days does not cycle the tank - bacteria need more time to establish themselves.

Thus u needed to treat it as a restart - not transfer from one established tank to another. Meaning cycle the new tank then transfer fish by fish over after a month or so.

You also need to look at the nitrogen cyle carefully

http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/bionitrog.../a/aa073199.htm

http://www.petland.com/gazette/no2_chart.htm

The bacteria on the LR you put in still needs time to acclimatise to the new environment and then establish themselves. There may even be some die off.

Unless u mean bacteria colonize the surface area of the carbon and starts processing nitrites...in that case you use carbon for the wrong purpose by making it work like ceramic rings or bio-balls.

No2 is still toxic, if you still measured it in your previous tank

1) your biological filtration in inadequate (carbon falls under chemical filtration)

2) you are over stocked

3) you have not finished cycling

4) all the above

About the protein skimmer thingy....i don't find a difference, in fact it would be better to run from day one once u add livestock or LR.Even if it doesn't skim anything at least its aerating the water.

remember that when u add fishes...you have to feed them too.

There are so many factors to consider, different environment/parameters leading to stress,stress from toxicity, stress from low oxygen etc etc...all in an un-established filtration not capable of handling the waste from the fishes.

what's done is done - don't dwell too much about it, you still have livestock to look out for in the present.

Now just cycle the tank properly and read more during this period.Ask more questions too.

A picture of the current 3ft situation would help too.

[FuEl]

If you had resisted buying more fish during that period your transfer MIGHT have went well...

[strat]

So i am confuse. the 30kg rocks is not from your matured tank?? From LFS?? From other reefers??

Eh...he only mentioned 30kg of grade 0 sand..never mentioned live rocks

Or did I missed out on that?