Siphon LS

[kais]

Is it advisable to siphon the LS to remove the waste or let nature take its course. Central Reef advised not to disturb the sand bed as the helpful bacteria and worm might be remove, and also recommend a minimum of 6" bed.

Any comments...

[Tanzy]

Siphon as in suck water from below the sand bed? That's definitely a no no because it will cause the anoxic and anaerobic layers in the sand to be lost when oxygenated water moves in. Totally defeats the purpose. A DSB take 1-2 years to fully mature, so stock slowly until then.

[anakjoh]

Wow 1-2 years to mature!

If I set up a refugium next to my tank instead of a sump, say only 6 in wide but as tall as the tank, will the DSB be of any help? I can have DSB up to 6 in x 8 in or more.

I'm trying to avoid doing a sump now but don't mind DIY a refugium behind the tank which is 2 x 1.5 x 1.5.

Please advise.

[kais]

My sand bed in the tank is only 2 inch high and there are fish waste piling at certain area. Should I increase the height of the sand bed to 6 inch, so that the bio-reaction (bacteria & worms) can break down the fish waste fast.

What method does you use in your tank. Thank in advance, Tanzy.

[Tanzy]

Increasing the depth of the sandbed will not increase the speed at which the fish poop gets eaten or removed. The depth is for denitrification.

I think you are talking about cleaning the sand surface of detritus, I suppose it should be OK in your case.

I use the Plenum NNR method, a.k.a. Jaubert or Monaco method.

[lona]

Hi Tanzy,

This may sound like a stupid question, but it's been burning in my mind for awhile now already.

They say it's good to have sand sifting creatures moving the sand around..but won't they sift the bottom layers of sand up and disturb the deeper layers of the DSB?

I'm in the process of setting up my tank, planning an eventual 4" DSB wif #1 coral sand (is that enough? some say it's the minimum..)..

Thanks..

[Tanzy]

As long as the sand sifters aren't too big, it's good. Pods and worms help move water down into the deeper layers and most importantly prevent compaction and clumping. Since they are so small, the amount of water moved is very tiny, so it doesn't really affect the oxygen levels in the deeper layers.

Large sand sifters like gobies that dig deep are not such a good idea. They can cause some serious damage to the oxygen layers. People use a net to partition of the bottom layers.

In my tank, the top 1" of sand is in constant motion due to water currents and the denitrification still works.

[lona]

hmm..ok..how about this idea I've been toying around with..but not too sure if it'll work.

You know those micrwavable transparent 'da bao' food containers? I was thinking of drilling small holes and turning them over to cover up the sand over the entire floor of my tank..but I'm afraid stuff might get trapped in there..algae and stuff. Dunno if you can imagine what I mean..I'd draw u a picture but now in office no scanner..

[yazid]

I think it is better to have the DSB in the refugium/sump than the main tank. That way it will be solely dedicated for the filtration w/o any disturbance. Leftover food will be accumulated in the refugium and food for the inhabitants.

DSB in main tank consume a lot of space and looks ugly when you see green/brown/black stuff on the side of the glass.

[lona]

Agreed, but I dun have much of a choice, or a budget..

I'm only having a DSB and LR and powerhead, nothing else..and fish of course. Not venturing into coral yet..shoestring budget..

[pospeh]

Agreed, but I dun have much of a choice, or a budget..

I'm only having a DSB and LR and powerhead, nothing else..and fish of course. Not venturing into coral yet..shoestring budget..

If you are planning to keep fish only, there is no need for you to use DSB. The main selling point of DSB is its ability to break down nitrates, and in a FO tank, nitrates levels are not a concern.

By the way, how tall is your tank. A six inch DSB sand layer will look butt ugly in a 12-18 inch tall tank, not to mention occupying valuable tank real estate.

[lona]

Hi pospeh,

My tank's abt 18".. ..I hear what you're saying abt a damn ugly tank..that's why I trying to keep the dsb to about 4". Thinking of mixing fine beach sand in with it as well..

But I don't understand why you say a FO tank won't have problems with NO3.. ..as long as something inside the tank is shitting, you will eventually end up with NO3 right?

I'd rather have more filter and denitrifying to fish, as compared to more fish than filter and denitrifying, because if you have more fish (hence more waste) than your system can keep up with you're going to end up with algal problems right?

Please comment?

[NormanH]

Fishes can tolerate higher amount of nirtate in the water as compared to corals. The main goal of a DSB is to acheive undectatable nitrate. If for fish-only, DSB may not be so important.

[pospeh]

Lona,

Norman is right.

Also, in the event you do decide to get DSB, 4" inches is not really optimal, and even with that, you need really fine sand. The objective in DBS is to create a layer of dead water where oxygen does not exist, and obviously, a deeper sand bed will ensure that there is a dead layer.

You cannot use beach sand. Beach sand is silica based, that the silica will leach into the water and create a bad diatom outbreak (brown algae).

Finally, a FO tank is going to produce a lot more waste and deitrius because of the feeding requirements of the fishes. You will need to clean off the deitrus more often. So having a DBS system, in which you should not disturb the sand layer, is not good for cleaning the sand layer.

IMO, sticking with LR is enough.

[lona]

Hi pospeh, norman,

Ok, I got you on the silica issue.

So, scratch the beach sand idea..

On the DSB though, I know that 4" ain't too good.. ..But I read it in a beginner's article, that it's the bare minimum and seems like people are saying that #1 sand is the bare minimum too ley..*sigh*..this is all so confusing.

Oh, and my setup won't be just fish, but I plan some cleanup crew too..like snails (those will clear up detritus right?), maybe a small starfish? Prb no gobies too cos I hear that they dig quite vigourously.

So pospeh, if I'm getting you right, you're saying that LR and a powerhead is enough?

[NormanH]

Lona,

4" is the thickness of the sand u have to lay (6" is better), #1 is the size of the sand.

[pospeh]

Lona,

A 4 inch DSB will work, though obviously not as well. And, yes, you do need at least #1 sand.

You also need a skimmer if you don't have one already.

A 2 foot tank is too small to create an overflow chamber, so I advise you to get (ahem) a canister filter. A powerhead is not enough.

[lona]

Norman> Thanks for the info.. ..but I already knew that..just unsure of my situation now and how to proceed...

Pospeh> Hmm..mine's a 3x1.5x1.5..idea is on a shoestring budget setup a DSB, LR and powerhead system only..no overflow, no sump, no protein skimmer..zip. I put forward this idea on another thread..umm..can't remember which one..I think the topic was 'some basic qns', or the one which ernie started, with his tank prb..got the feeling that the idea is ok...

LR as primary filter, DSB though not ideal, but I plan 2 powerheads for circulation maybe a surface skimmer. My objective is more like a 'proof-of-concept' thing to see if this way will work, (I read about a similar setup on the web that's why I thought maybe can try this first since I'm a beginner)..wanted to start small, later on in life, when I can afford more, and when I get my own place..will get more stuff..hopefully by that time I would have learnt more.

By the way, canister filters? Some say those aren't very good leh..dun really know since never use before lar..but that's what I've read..

[pospeh]

Yes, I suppose you could do with the DSB, LR and powerhead.

When I had my first marine tank 20 years ago, it as only undergravel filter and powerhead, so it will work.

You could always add the skimmer if things go bad.

A canister filter is no good, but I suggested it because it provides circulaton in lieu of a sump.

[lona]

Hi Pospeh,

Wa 20 yrs ago.. ..

but ya..looks like yours is the same path I plan to take..start small small..get some initial hands on experience..(oso because low budget lar)..then later, like you like that lor..

Thanks so much for your input and suggestions, and the thanks goes to everyone who's given me info and input..I tell you..when I first came up with the idea of having a marine tank..everyone around me laugh..say I sure fail one..

That was two weeks ago..I don't hear them laughing so hard now..

[wedgee]

Thanks so much for your input and suggestions, and the thanks goes to everyone who's given me info and input..I tell you..when I first came up with the idea of having a marine tank..everyone around me laugh..say I sure fail one..

That was two weeks ago..I don't hear them laughing so hard now..

I salute yr bravery Iona...its not easy to get over the discouraging laughter and cynical remarks when it comes to something so special and challenging as Marine fishkeeping!!!

Lets walk down this path together people!!!! Long live Marine!!!

[lona]

Thanks Wedgee,

As Ghandi once said, first they ignore you, second they laugh at you, then they fight you, and then you win!

Wise words..

[Tanzy]

Thanks Wedgee,

As Ghandi once said, first they ignore you, second they laugh at you, then they fight you, and then you win!

Wise words..

I must say that Ghandi must have been very optimistic about things.

[Wei]

Hi lona,

go for it! i also started with a small 2.5ft tank. simple setup, low budget. Once you can handle small tank, big tank will be very easy to handle.

i have a 3x1.5x1.5 now. 4" DSB. a diy overflow box. MH lights, skimmer. thats all. 6" sandbed too thick , i find no different from 4". if you using #0, a 2.5 to 3" can liao. most important is to seed the sandbed until very life with lots of worms crawling inside.

then add things slowly & let the natural do its job. that simple! simple? also not really. Try and u will know. haha!

Wei

[lona]

Thanks Wei,

Wa..how you seed your sand until got so many worms one ar?

I don't really see any worms in my rock ley..

Thanks again for the encouragement..